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Old 2012-07-29, 16:38   Link #1281
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
a style that will be well-suited to animation (which the original was not).
What is this supposed to mean, exactly? A more simplified style? Because that's what we've got here.
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Old 2012-07-29, 16:39   Link #1282
Reckoner
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Guys you're comparing CG images to anime images. You do realize why they do VN images in CG right? They don't have animation and all...

The anime images look perfectly fine. Maybe it's not the absolute fucknig best thing since sliced bread, but why in the world do you expect this in the first place? What I see is a staff that is doing their job reasonably well in the visual department and it's not a complete botch like you can sometimes see out there for anime (If you want to talk crappy visuals for a VN/LN, why did Muv Luv get such crappy budget?).

This is actually pretty lucky that they're doing it and giving it this much care in the first place. It might not be kyoani visuals, but sheesh, the sense of entitlement here is ridiculous.
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Old 2012-07-29, 16:44   Link #1283
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So, voicing our opinions on the animation of a very anticipated anime is being entitled?

How are we lucky they are giving this much care? They know how huge LB! is(and how much potential for sales it has), they are obviously bringing their A-team for it.
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Old 2012-07-29, 16:44   Link #1284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
What is this supposed to mean, exactly? A more simplified style? Because that's what we've got here.
The whole job of the anime character designer is to make designs that are able to drawn on-model by as many people as possible and are suitable to a large number of different poses, since the goal is for them to be animated, not presented as picturesque still-frames (à la game CG/sprites). So yes, of course it has to be simplified. How could you possibly animate it otherwise? Even the designs of the studios you're comparing to were vastly simplified from the original art, even though you may prefer that character designer's approach over this one.

Surely you've done some analysis of anime character designs before posting this comparison...


Quote:
Originally Posted by leokiko View Post
So, voicing our opinions on the animation of a very anticipated anime is being entitled?
Of course not. But expecting a random still frame from an animated PV to look like a game CG/sprite is a bit unrealistic too.
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Old 2012-07-29, 16:44   Link #1285
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Guys you're comparing CG images to anime images.
Half of them are STILLS. I'd forgive them if they were actually animated shots, but stills should never look this bad, especially in promotional material.
It's funny because the actual animation is quite excellent.
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
This is actually pretty lucky that they're doing it and giving it this much care in the first place. It might not be kyoani visuals, but sheesh, the sense of entitlement here is ridiculous.
Don't you dare play this card. If I perceive problems, why don't I have the right to complain about them?
This isn't "entitlement", it's "having reasonably high standards". There is a difference.
Again, I thought the animation was great, it's just that the character designs are not, and that JC is capable of better.
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Even the designs of the studios you're comparing to were vastly simplified from the original art
Not to this extent they haven't.
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Surely you've done some analysis of anime character designs before posting this comparison...
Sure, let's look at something like, oh, OreImo, or even JC Staff's own Shana, where the anime art was easily on-par with the novel's art.
Of course anime designs are going to be less complicated, but they don't need to be flattened and genericized to the extent that they have with Little Busters. It just shows incompetency on the part of the staff.
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Old 2012-07-29, 16:50   Link #1286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Half of them are STILLS. I'd forgive them if they were actually animated shots.
Not sure I'm understanding this,even if they're stills,it's the anime preview,they're gonna be using the simplified anime designs since that's what you'll be seeing in the anime,it'd be false advertising to preview the anime with highly detailed still shots and then when the actual anime airs switch to simpler anime designs.
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Old 2012-07-29, 16:52   Link #1287
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Not sure I'm understanding this,even if they're stills,it's the anime preview,they're gonna be using the simplified anime designs since that's what you'll be seeing in the anime,it'd be false advertising to preview the anime with highly detailed still shots and then when the actual anime airs switch to simpler anime designs.
Look at Kengo's face in the picture I posted. Do you notice the problem with it?
Stills really shouldn't ever look like that. They often do, but they shouldn't.
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Old 2012-07-29, 16:58   Link #1288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Sure, let's look at something like, oh, OreImo, or even JC Staff's own Shana, where the anime art was easily on-par with the novel's art.
Of course anime designs are going to be less complicated, but they don't need to be flattened and genericized to the extent that they have with Little Busters. It just shows incompetency on the part of the staff.
I'm rather surprised you used those examples. OreImo's character designs were drawn by an anime character designer in the first place, so they were created with the constraints of animation in mind. Shana, for what it's worth, had wildly varying character designs between the various seasons, and some of the official promotional art (even on official merchandise!) looked off-model and wildly different from the Ito Noizi original and previous seasons.

In any case, I don't think there is any "incompetence" on display here. This character designer has a different art style that you happen to not like. In the end, I think the animation looks quite decent in motion, and that is what matters most.
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Old 2012-07-29, 17:00   Link #1289
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Lively today due to the PV. Only about three months until we see it for real.
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Old 2012-07-29, 17:01   Link #1290
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
In the end, I think the animation looks quite decent in motion, and that is what matters most.
Except that most anime are really just composed of still frames and pans with mouth flaps, so something "looking good in motion" means very little when things are not going to be in motion the majority of the time.
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
OreImo's character designs were drawn by an anime character designer in the first place, so they were created with the constraints of animation in mind.
I didn't know that, but it would explain why both the novel and anime art are so good.
Either way, it's not just the art style itself in the new PV that bothers me; it actually resembles Masayoshi Tanaka's work a little (especially the mouths), and I'm kind of a fan of his style. What I dislike is not only that the designs are quite genericized, but that it looks significantly worse and less accurate to the source than every other KEY adaptation (barring, of course, Toei's).
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Old 2012-07-29, 17:10   Link #1291
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Originally Posted by leokiko View Post
So, voicing our opinions on the animation of a very anticipated anime is being entitled?

How are we lucky they are giving this much care? They know how huge LB! is(and how much potential for sales it has), they are obviously bringing their A-team for it.
I think it's entitled that people keep clamoring that JC Staff isn't KyoAni and how they keep lamenting that it is JC staff instead of KyoAni, and now that they're showing their work which really doesn't look bad people are just going through their self fulfilled prophecy of being destined to dislike JC Staff's job here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Half of them are STILLS. I'd forgive them if they were actually animated shots, but stills should never look this bad, especially in promotional material.
It's funny because the actual animation is quite excellent.
I remember if you ever took too many stills in things like clannad or kanon2006 throughout the series, they always looked less than impressive to me as well.

I don't really perceive that much of an inferior job thus far, just a different style that may or may not suit your boat. Same complaints were made with Sword Art Online, and that too mostly boils down to preference. I didn't like SAO's char designs at all in the promotion but the actual anime looked a lot better for whatever reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Don't you dare play this card. If I perceive problems, why don't I have the right to complain about them?
This isn't "entitlement", it's "having reasonably high standards". There is a difference.
Again, I thought the animation was great, it's just that the character designs are not, and that JC is capable of better.
You're free to complain, I never said you weren't.

But I perceive a general feeling of entitlement in this thread, that because they already think JC staff cannot succeed here, they never will be able to match their expectations. It's hard to chase some imaginary standard that was somehow set by a studio that never wanted to do this anime in the first place. Maybe that's not what you want, I cannot say, but I just don't see the reason to freak out about these designs that much. They really aren't THAT bad, I'll grant you that it's not unreasonable to say "well I feel they could be a little better," but the attitude here seems to be a full dismissal of something that's really not all that bad, hence why I called people here entitled. Dismissing an entire work, despite it being a pretty decent effort, just because of unreasonably high expectations.
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Old 2012-07-29, 17:15   Link #1292
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
But I perceive a general feeling of entitlement in this thread
Could you use a word other than "entitlement"? That word has negative connotations these days.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Dismissing an entire work, despite it being a pretty decent effort, just because of unreasonably high expectations.
Oh, I'm not dismissing the entire work, I'm just dismissing the character designs. Like I said, it could very well maintain and even improve upon the spirit of the original source, but that remains to be seen. The only thing we have to go on right now are the visuals and for the most part I don't find them very impressive at all.
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Old 2012-07-29, 17:26   Link #1293
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Well i guess i'll put my two cents in.
Komari - with the screencap i agree she looks terrible but if you look at other shots of her in the PV she looked great particularly the roof scene with her and rin
Saigusa - Haruka is my favorite out of the anime designs. I think she looks great even better then her VN counter part.
Kud - Okay this one looks absolutely terrible
Kurugaya - She looks good but i think she looks...too happy? IDK just somethings off
Mio - I cant say which i liked more but i say its a tie
Rin - Ehhh not as good as her VN counter part but she still looks good.
(non screen caps)
masato - I think he looked better then his VN counter part minus his lack of muscle
kengo - Again i think he looked better then his VN counter part or about the same
Brosuke - Yeah his VN counter part is far more better but his anime design is still decent
Riki -I have to say but i vastly prefer his anime design. His eyes look a little more sickly and has a more girl-ish appearence.
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Old 2012-07-29, 17:26   Link #1294
hyl
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I have seen character designs that were originally from eroge's and VN's changed more drastically for an anime adaptation than this one.
The designs don't look that bad. Of course, i am not going to expect the same quality as a VN though
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Old 2012-07-29, 17:31   Link #1295
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I think it's entitled that people keep clamoring that JC Staff isn't KyoAni and how they keep lamenting that it is JC staff instead of KyoAni, and now that they're showing their work which really doesn't look bad people are just going through their self fulfilled prophecy of being destined to dislike JC Staff's job here.
I personally think their job isn't even on par with their own "caliber" to be honest: if you compare the design efforts and details for Shana, Toradora, ToAru series etc, you have much crispier colors, along with designs being quite specific.

In the case of LB, it is more on the "generic" design tangeant we can have with series like from XEBEC etc.
Angel Beats is basically "in between": albeit it was quite different from Na-Ga original art, it still had few features that defined the series to some extent.

And before anyone ask, I'm not particularly fond of Hinoue's design (although she actually progressed a bit, comparisons between Rewrite and Air for example), so I really don't expect anything "faithful" (to begin with KyoAni designs are a vast improvement over the original design, and that's not a only matter of eyes and whatnot).
Quote:
I remember if you ever took too many stills in things like clannad or kanon2006 throughout the series, they always looked less than impressive to me as well.
There is a major issue with your argument: you are comparing a full PV and a series. If you were to compare Clannad/Kanon PV with LB PV, the differences are glaring. There will be stills at some point in most anime, but that has nothing to do with a PV to begin with: a promotional video ought to appeal the audience, and using references and all from the original source is one thing, but being stuck on stills is something completely different.
Since it will start airing in 3 months, having actual scenes from the series wouldn't be too far fetched to pull, and would be much better than we currently got.
Quote:
But I perceive a general feeling of entitlement in this thread, that because they already think JC staff cannot succeed here, they never will be able to match their expectations.
The opposite impression is also quite tangible: anyone criticizing things presented so far are automatically tagged as "entitled" "blaming JC" "expectations not met" etc.

Really, regardless if people have their expectations or not, there are legitimate points that are given due to tastes and whatnot (unless you pretend design etc can be objectively declared as good for anyone, which is a preposterous premise).
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Old 2012-07-29, 17:32   Link #1296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Look at Kengo's face in the picture I posted. Do you notice the problem with it?
I'll give you that first pic

But honestly have no issue with the rest,but I'm probably not the best person to talk to,I've never like Key's design one bit so seeing a bit of a departure from them is something I welcome with open arms.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari
Since it will start airing in 3 months, having actual scenes from the series wouldn't be too far fetched to pull, and would be much better than we currently got.
I agree,that's my biggest disappointment with the PV I came in expecting actual scenes and got none of that
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Old 2012-07-29, 17:35   Link #1297
Reckoner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Could you use a word other than "entitlement"? That word has negative connotations these days.

Oh, I'm not dismissing the entire work, I'm just dismissing the character designs. Like I said, it could very well maintain and even improve upon the spirit of the original source, but that remains to be seen. The only thing we have to go on right now are the visuals and for the most part I don't find them very impressive at all.
Entitled doesn't necessarily have to be negative, but if it bothers you so much I was merely commenting on how people are expecting an extremely high standard and are very unaccepting of anything that doesn't meet that standard.

The character designs could be a tad more distinct, you're not wrong. I kind of blame this era of K-ON ification of artstyles, which I pin squarely on KyoAni for causing. Sword Art Online was affected by this. You could see it in things like Idolmaster. Generically designed in ways that remove more distinctive features, but in return animating the characters becomes a lot easier and more fluid.

I'm not quite sure the trade off is really worth it honestly.

However, it could be worse here than it really is.
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Old 2012-07-29, 17:54   Link #1298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I think it's entitled that people keep clamoring that JC Staff isn't KyoAni and how they keep lamenting that it is JC staff instead of KyoAni, and now that they're showing their work which really doesn't look bad people are just going through their self fulfilled prophecy of being destined to dislike JC Staff's job here.
Funny you mention this, because most people I see here seem generally positive towards the PV reveal, and no one has outright made any comparision or are lamenting about the fact that a better studio could be doing it. Hardly what I'd call a bunch of entitled people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
But I perceive a general feeling of entitlement in this thread, that because they already think JC staff cannot succeed here, they never will be able to match their expectations. It's hard to chase some imaginary standard that was somehow set by a studio that never wanted to do this anime in the first place. Maybe that's not what you want, I cannot say, but I just don't see the reason to freak out about these designs that much. They really aren't THAT bad, I'll grant you that it's not unreasonable to say "well I feel they could be a little better," but the attitude here seems to be a full dismissal of something that's really not all that bad, hence why I called people here entitled. Dismissing an entire work, despite it being a pretty decent effort, just because of unreasonably high expectations.
What you're saying isn't entitlement, unless we're talking about our rights to subjective criticism. What exactly is wrong with putting JC staff against a metric based on what they've done, what the industry has achieved, and judging what they have produced? If it's bad, we'll call out as bad, simple as that. For the record, while I might say it looks reasonable for a JC staff production, I find that JC staff has stagnated in this department for years. Studios which used to put out far worse works than them have jumped ahead in this time, like Ufotable. With the standard of the industry as it is, LB's looking decidedly average.
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Old 2012-07-29, 18:26   Link #1299
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The character designs could be a tad more distinct, you're not wrong. I kind of blame this era of K-ON ification of artstyles, which I pin squarely on KyoAni for causing. Sword Art Online was affected by this. You could see it in things like Idolmaster.
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Old 2012-07-29, 18:31   Link #1300
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Actually I though that the animation and the designs were okay. The only nitpick I had was that the colors were... washed out? Certainly not as crisp as I'd seen JC Staff as capable of doing in the past.
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