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Old 2012-07-29, 18:36   Link #1301
Eater of All
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Personally, I just have some issues with the eyes and colors. I don't notice these problems during closer-up shots and actual animation, which is why I complimented those two areas specifically.

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Originally Posted by Skane View Post
It must be pretty demoralising to be on the production team doing this.

"There, there. You did your best, I had low expectations any ways."

If it's worth anything, I meant lowering my expectations to normal healthy levels, not to "I'm expecting this be crap and this PV met it handily."

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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Maybe that's not what you want, I cannot say, but I just don't see the reason to freak out about these designs that much. They really aren't THAT bad, I'll grant you that it's not unreasonable to say "well I feel they could be a little better," but the attitude here seems to be a full dismissal of something that's really not all that bad, hence why I called people here entitled. Dismissing an entire work, despite it being a pretty decent effort, just because of unreasonably high expectations.
You mean, you've never ranted even more fervently against works by you-know-what company despite them being "pretty decent efforts"? I'm impressed.
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Old 2012-07-29, 18:37   Link #1302
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One possible side effect of ths anime: Photoshopped scenes of Rin as Kyonko.
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Old 2012-07-29, 18:52   Link #1303
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I agree,that's my biggest disappointment with the PV I came in expecting actual scenes and got none of that
I think the main purpose of the PV is to show how closely their visuals match the original work (to address viewer expectations). The problem with this approach is that:

a) The strengths of the medium aren't on display
b) With so much emphasis on recreating reference shots, the differences stand out even more, which defeats the intended purpose

It would be better to show what the VN can't offer. Precisely matching the original look is impossible, so a trailer focusing too much on that is bound to disappoint.

Actually, the same goes for the character designs. They've made them so similar to the game that the differences (i.e. simplification) are inadvertently highlighted.

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if you compare the design efforts and details for Shana, Toradora, ToAru series etc, you have much crispier colors, along with designs being quite specific.
Regarding design, I think that's the benefit gained by drawing characters that better reflect the artist's individuality (which can compensate for design simplification). On the above shows, the designers weren't as faithful to the original illustrations. However, they maintained the general look and let the new iterations come to life in their own way.

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The only nitpick I had was that the colors were... washed out? Certainly not as crisp as I'd seen JC Staff as capable of doing in the past.
The look they're aiming for is different from their usual fare. I can't speak for the studio, but my guess is that they're used to doing things a certain way (in particular, they were among the best at complementing Shichiro Kobayashi's watercolour backgrounds), so the look for LB may not be familiar territory.
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Old 2012-07-29, 19:07   Link #1304
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If those were actual scenes from the anime then J.C.STAFF have outdone themselves. My only fear is that the PV looks like it's taken from the OP.
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Old 2012-07-29, 19:10   Link #1305
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Originally Posted by Suzuku View Post
If those were actual scenes from the anime then J.C.STAFF have outdone themselves. My only fear is that the PV looks like it's taken from the OP.
From how i see it 0:27 - 0:32 and 0:52 - 0:55 are from the op everything else is from the anime.
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Old 2012-07-29, 19:14   Link #1306
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I personally think their job isn't even on par with their own "caliber" to be honest: if you compare the design efforts and details for Shana, Toradora, ToAru series etc, you have much crispier colors, along with designs being quite specific.

In the case of LB, it is more on the "generic" design tangeant we can have with series like from XEBEC etc.
Angel Beats is basically "in between": albeit it was quite different from Na-Ga original art, it still had few features that defined the series to some extent.
I like to call it K-ON-ification of art, granted I prefer the designs of those more myself, but I wouldn't call these necessarily bad. The series you mentioned have lots of consistency issues with maintain character designs and had wonky animation constantly, I presume they're trying to avoid that here.

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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
And before anyone ask, I'm not particularly fond of Hinoue's design (although she actually progressed a bit, comparisons between Rewrite and Air for example), so I really don't expect anything "faithful" (to begin with KyoAni designs are a vast improvement over the original design, and that's not a only matter of eyes and whatnot).There is a major issue with your argument: you are comparing a full PV and a series. If you were to compare Clannad/Kanon PV with LB PV, the differences are glaring. There will be stills at some point in most anime, but that has nothing to do with a PV to begin with: a promotional video ought to appeal the audience, and using references and all from the original source is one thing, but being stuck on stills is something completely different.
I didn't say that this looked as good as a KyoAni effort, but I am proposing the question here... While a KyoAni effort would most certainly be welcomed, why must we always compare to that standard, considering they didn't want this product in the first place? That's the general thing I've seen throughout this thread, that it's no "kyoani" visuals and yada yada.

As if it does a good job at catching interest? I cannot say. I'm not the best person to ask about this, I don't like KEY like others do and I don't think there's anything that attractive about their works on the surface.

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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Since it will start airing in 3 months, having actual scenes from the series wouldn't be too far fetched to pull, and would be much better than we currently got.The opposite impression is also quite tangible: anyone criticizing things presented so far are automatically tagged as "entitled" "blaming JC" "expectations not met" etc.

Really, regardless if people have their expectations or not, there are legitimate points that are given due to tastes and whatnot (unless you pretend design etc can be objectively declared as good for anyone, which is a preposterous premise).
I think it is disingenuous to perpetrate that this thread has been just a bunch of reasonable critics giving a fair assessment of everything seen so far. From day one of this being announced as JC Staff's project it has been a call to raise the guillotines. This may not apply to you or some others in this thread, and if that is the case then my sincere apologies.

I'll say this. The preview certainly wasn't the most exciting thing ever, but is it mostly because of the visuals or the fact that it was just animating directly most of the scenes from the original VN OP? As you pointed out, no it isn't too far fetched that could give us a trailer with scenes from the actual anime. If anything I think the criticism should be placed on them for choosing to animate parts of the anime OP instead of putting together a real trailer.

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Originally Posted by com_gwp View Post
Funny you mention this, because most people I see here seem generally positive towards the PV reveal, and no one has outright made any comparision or are lamenting about the fact that a better studio could be doing it. Hardly what I'd call a bunch of entitled people.
Have you read through this thread!?! I'm sorry but we seem to be seeing completely different things here.

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Originally Posted by com_gwp View Post
What you're saying isn't entitlement, unless we're talking about our rights to subjective criticism. What exactly is wrong with putting JC staff against a metric based on what they've done, what the industry has achieved, and judging what they have produced? If it's bad, we'll call out as bad, simple as that. For the record, while I might say it looks reasonable for a JC staff production, I find that JC staff has stagnated in this department for years. Studios which used to put out far worse works than them have jumped ahead in this time, like Ufotable. With the standard of the industry as it is, LB's looking decidedly average.
Maybe if most of the negative comments throughout this thread haven't been in the light of "it's not like kyoani," then I would see it differently.

Also I have never said people can't criticize things (If you know me then that would be the most hypocritical comment I could ever make of this forum). But if you criticize it, you should also welcome the fact that people may very well disagree with those criticisms?

I am merely calling into question the level of expectations set forth by a fanbase that wants a job exactly done like a beloved studio of theirs. YES, it could be better, I will not deny that. But that pretty much applies to everything. My accusations of entitlement stem from the fact that I perceive a fanbase that only will ever accept the royal treatment for their product.

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Originally Posted by Eater of All View Post
You mean, you've never ranted even more fervently against works by you-know-what company despite them being "pretty decent efforts"? I'm impressed.
I thought the subject here was how well they are adapting a work. I never said KyoAni didn't do a good job at adapting their KEY works, in fact they often improved upon their mediocre sources. KEY works just aren't very good in the first place to me, though I think I enjoyed Little Busters more than their previous works for whatever reason.
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Old 2012-07-29, 19:23   Link #1307
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It looks alright actually. The character designs are actually of a better type then what I've seen from Key animu thus far. But then again, I was never a fan of the original Key designs with a few exceptions of course. :3
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Old 2012-07-29, 19:37   Link #1308
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I just noticed. WHERE THE HELL IS YURIPPE-SAMA!?!?!?!?!?!

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Old 2012-07-29, 20:04   Link #1309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I like to call it K-ON-ification of art, granted I prefer the designs of those more myself, but I wouldn't call these necessarily bad. The series you mentioned have lots of consistency issues with maintain character designs and had wonky animation constantly, I presume they're trying to avoid that here.
I definitely don't want to spiral this matter and certainly would not like anyone swinging in a terrible tangent, so I will be brief:
Regardless how you loathe K-on design (due to its simplicity and whatnot), that mention is really impertinent. Many series got some kind of "generic" looks for ages, starting from the early 2000 (with the progressive "loss" of characteristic designs of the 80 and 90'). So blaming or using K-on as the fundation of a "generalized" design is really not any good and shouldn't be used at all.
And using your example, SAO is actually modeled after Working!! design, and has nothing close to K-on (to which few series actually share the same design, such like kannagi, sora no woto, Hyouka and kokoro connect).

So if you really want to name a recent trend, I guess getting oversimple and/or too much emphasis on moe (moeblob/moeficiation huh?) works. But K-on? Its design is the vast minority among series we have been introduced, especially that "otaku pandering" trend emerged like in ~2006 already.


and back to the topic: yes, I know full well how JC staff can be extremely inconsistent over the same series. That being said, you have to wonder how come they would step down in such fashion. Whereas the design is to everyone tastes or not, the major issue is something that is quite evident: colors and "textures".
And really, things do not bode too well when every promotional material (interview, PV, etc) converge to the same result.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-07-29 at 20:22.
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Old 2012-07-29, 20:15   Link #1310
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While i am fine with the character designs and all, but i do have to agree that J.C. staff could have done much better. Especially seeing how many people were hyped for an anime adaptation of little busters , so it was a potential "cashcow" for the studio.
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Old 2012-07-29, 20:38   Link #1311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
and back to the topic: yes, I know full well how JC staff can be extremely inconsistent over the same series. That being said, you have to wonder how come they would step down in such fashion. Whereas the design is to everyone tastes or not, the major issue is something that is quite evident: colors and "textures".
And really, things do not bode too well when every promotional material (interview, PV, etc) converge to the same result.
Are you referring to the "washed-out" look JC Staff seems to employ in all their anime? Call me weird, but I actually like that stylistic trademark of their studio.
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Old 2012-07-29, 20:46   Link #1312
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Originally Posted by Skane View Post
It must be pretty demoralising to be on the production team doing this.

"There, there. You did your best, I had low expectations any ways."

Well it's not like the trailer had any "Wow!" moments. Even the rain scene was not that visually exciting. To me there wasn't alot of background detail. Most of it was panning shots of faces against a simple background. Trailer looked "flat" to me, not a lot of depth to the scenes.

Hyouka's trailer



Complex backgrounds, falling pedals and that pan shot for the "wow" moments. You can feel the depth of the spaces. It doesn't look flat. Even the white scenes with the character walking with the bike has movement in the background.
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Old 2012-07-29, 20:48   Link #1313
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look like there will be 2 group watching this anime

Elitist unreasonable high-expectation VN player: always say that "this could have been better if it was Kyoani or PA" and will rate the anime low or average no matter how good it is.

more open-minded VN player and anime-only watcher: rate the anime for how enjoyable it really is for them
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Old 2012-07-29, 21:04   Link #1314
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Originally Posted by Xenio View Post
look like there will be 2 group watching this anime

Elitist unreasonable high-expectation VN player: always say that "this could have been better if it was Kyoani or PA" and will rate the anime low or average no matter how good it is.

more open-minded VN player and anime-only watcher: rate the anime for how enjoyable it really is for them
It's a big franchise so it's expected that people have high expectations. KyoAni has set the bar high so JC Staff has to animate at KyoAni's level imo.
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Old 2012-07-29, 21:07   Link #1315
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I'm fairly sure it is more than just the VN players. KyoAni's Kanon and Clannad set a fairly high standard for Little Busters to meet.

Especialy in the waterworks department.
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Old 2012-07-29, 21:07   Link #1316
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If you think the reaction to SAO is a bloodbath, this is going to make it look like a lovefest. LB isn't going to have a prayer of getting a fair shot.
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Old 2012-07-29, 21:24   Link #1317
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I'm fairly sure it is more than just the VN players. KyoAni's Kanon and Clannad set a fairly high standard for Little Busters to meet.
I agree. It's impossible not to be disappointed when you are used to getting high-quality works of key's VN's by KyoAni.


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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
If you think the reaction to SAO is a bloodbath, this is going to make it look like a lovefest. LB isn't going to have a prayer of getting a fair shot.
SAO was rushed, it didn't deserve much of a fair shot, specially on episode 2 and 3(these episodes absolutely deserved to be bashed). It was a disappointment even for the non-readers. If they do that with LB!(which I doubt), sh*t will go down. Everywhere.
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Old 2012-07-29, 21:46   Link #1318
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
If you think the reaction to SAO is a bloodbath, this is going to make it look like a lovefest. LB isn't going to have a prayer of getting a fair shot.
People can throw all the tantrums they want, that won't change a single thing. PV looks good, the designs remind me of Angel Beats which also adapted NaGa designs relatively well.
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Old 2012-07-29, 21:52   Link #1319
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Originally Posted by Xenio View Post
look like there will be 2 group watching this anime

Elitist unreasonable high-expectation VN player: always say that "this could have been better if it was Kyoani or PA" and will rate the anime low or average no matter how good it is.

more open-minded VN player and anime-only watcher: rate the anime for how enjoyable it really is for them
Cool false dichotomy, bro.
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Old 2012-07-29, 22:00   Link #1320
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Whereas the design is to everyone tastes or not, the major issue is something that is quite evident: colors and "textures".
And really, things do not bode too well when every promotional material (interview, PV, etc) converge to the same result.
Well, I will say as before that this "major issue" doesn't seem so major to me -- I see it as part of the art style more than anything else, and not necessarily a flaw. I have seen shows that evoke a similar style on purpose, and if the whole show ended up looking as the PV, I don't think it would necessarily bother me. That being said, I suppose one possible reason for this could be that, if they are intending to animate the whole show with that much more fluidity than normal, having a simpler colour design may help make this more manageable. Then again, I suppose we also need to wait and see what an actual episode looks like.
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