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Old 2012-03-30, 03:34   Link #21
raduccio
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There's nothing wrong about being badass. It's the jerks that bother me. Also the idea that men are either jerks or weaklings (and boring).
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Old 2012-03-30, 03:37   Link #22
judasmartel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahelo View Post
It's so sad that something that sounds so superficial is actually the real hard truth. Generally speaking, women prefer badasses over nice guys.
It doesn't mean that jerks = badasses though. Nice guys can be badass when they have to.
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Old 2012-03-30, 09:47   Link #23
Kimidori
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Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
It doesn't mean that jerks = badasses though. Nice guys can be badass when they have to.
you mean a guy that both nice and physically strong?
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Old 2012-03-30, 10:08   Link #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahelo View Post
It's so sad that something that sounds so superficial is actually the real hard truth. Generally speaking, women prefer badasses over nice guys.
The problem is that nice guys, in this context, are often EXTREME DOORMATS. Something that a girl may not want when a conflict happens. They necessarily may not want a guy who flat out punch the source of the conflict, but be able to stand for himself, or her, and take no shit from any douchebag.
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Old 2012-03-30, 10:10   Link #25
judasmartel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimidori View Post
you mean a guy that both nice and physically strong
And intelligent, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
The problem is that nice guys, in this context, are often EXTREME DOORMATS. Something that a girl may not want when a conflict happens. They necessarily may not want a guy who flat out punch the source of the conflict, but be able to stand for himself, or her, and take no shit from any douchebag.
Correct. A real man should at least be able to stand up for himself.
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Old 2012-03-30, 11:48   Link #26
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One example I haven't seen yet is simply an unreliable love interest to create sympathy for the main character. The writer gets the reader to root for the underdog heroine who get's her trust betrayed. Her picking the nice guy wouldn't be practical in that situation.

Also nice lacks spice. It's the flaws that make characters stand out and endear them. Make them *too* nice and you end up with a boy named (Mary) Sue. Or worse, clingy, no easier way to create an annoying character.

I get the impression that some posters try to identify with the guys in shoujo manga rather than the heroine.
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Old 2012-03-30, 12:02   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raduccio View Post
I doubt he was talking about girls in general. It's just that typical shoujo manga heroines are a little dumb (and clumsy and poor but that's not important)
They're typically not dumb, they're naive. =.=

Quote:
The problem is that nice guys, in this context, are often EXTREME DOORMATS.
Yes, there is a difference between nice guys and co-dependent guys. A guy needs to know when to give and take. If he just gives gives gives, he will end up being used, or treated as just a friend. I don't like it when men try to buy me with presents. This comes off as "coming on too strong and acting too desperate".

Quote:
Generally speaking, women prefer badasses over nice guys.
If you're talking about bad guys, do you have statistics to back up such a generalized statement?
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Last edited by Chiibi; 2012-03-30 at 12:13.
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Old 2012-03-30, 14:53   Link #28
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The "bad boys" found in manga are, most of the time, actually pretty nice. They are nothing like the actual jerkasses you meet in real life. And the reason why those bad boys are popular in manga, is because they add some angst and drama to the story.
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Old 2012-03-30, 15:05   Link #29
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Hrm ... well, what folks read in various forms of lit does indeed happen IRL, but not all the time. Nevertheless there are reasons why the noticeable patterns in various forms of the arts are consistently portrayed: they reflect human behavior, simple and plain. But they do not always reflect the full gamut - after all, there are plenty of aspects of human experience that are plain boring when viewed from the outside and would make a fairly uninteresting "story".

All the examples mentioned thus far of both women and men do happen in folks we come across from day to day, and sometimes folks make wrong decisions and get hurt or allow themselves to be hurt and the rest. People make mistakes, after all (we don't have to stray far from looking at ourselves for a prominent example of someone making a bad decision from time to time)!
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Old 2012-03-30, 15:15   Link #30
judasmartel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fanty View Post
The "bad boys" found in manga are, most of the time, actually pretty nice. They are nothing like the actual jerkasses you meet in real life. And the reason why those bad boys are popular in manga, is because they add some angst and drama to the story.
\start of rant

This. No wonder 90% of girls get into relationships with jerks so they can try to bring out their good side or make them change their ways.

Sadly, that doesn't happen quite often. Some guys just treat their girls like dirt and their wives and children emotional trash cans, punching bags, and ATM machines.

/end of rant

Sad but true, indeed. See, there are always reasons why manga bad boys act that way. Nice guys, if they're not wimpy, they're Butt Monkeys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower View Post
Hrm ... well, what folks read in various forms of lit does indeed happen IRL, but not all the time. Nevertheless there are reasons why the noticeable patterns in various forms of the arts are consistently portrayed: they reflect human behavior, simple and plain. But they do not always reflect the full gamut - after all, there are plenty of aspects of human experience that are plain boring when viewed from the outside and would make a fairly uninteresting "story".

All the examples mentioned thus far of both women and men do happen in folks we come across from day to day, and sometimes folks make wrong decisions and get hurt or allow themselves to be hurt and the rest. People make mistakes, after all (we don't have to stray far from looking at ourselves for a prominent example of someone making a bad decision from time to time)!
This is why I prefer "Knight" or "Badass" male leads in romance stories over anything else. Bad boys, they're obnoxious. Nice guys, they're wimpy or unlucky.
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Old 2012-03-30, 15:16   Link #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fanty View Post
The "bad boys" found in manga are, most of the time, actually pretty nice. They are nothing like the actual jerkasses you meet in real life. And the reason why those bad boys are popular in manga, is because they add some angst and drama to the story.
Agreed. They usually have an extremely tragic or sad past that results in their current behaviour. Due to the trauma, they will shut themselves off from other people. Then the heroine, who is kind-hearted, honest, a little naive perhaps, ever cheerful will present herself as a hindrance in the guy's life. The guy, whom nobody dares to approach suddenly find himself being pestered by the girl, physically (scenario 1: girl accidentally bump her breast onto his chest scenario 2:girl falls down, guy catches her and it ends with girl blushing to the extent her cheeks are about to explode scenario 3:girl gets herself in trouble, guy reluctantly comes to her rescue) and mentally (he is always thinking about the girl, thinking to himself how annoying the girl is when in actual fact the guy is just being tsundere and would not admit he has fallen for her). In the beginning, the girl will either be very annoyed by the guy's attitude, or she takes pity on him and wish to help him. One way or another, the girl is destined to be part of the bad guy's life. Then later, as the girl gets to know the bad guy better, she comes to realize that he is a good guy after all. Bad guy on the other hand, slowly sees her as someone he could rely on. Their relationship will then progress to the point the girl successfully penetrates into the guy's barrier protected heart, and she comes to understand his past.

The guy at this point, is still wrapped up in his angsty past, so when the girl starts asking him questions about his past and encourages him to let it go, he becomes embarrassed by his past and tries to push the girl away by pretending he doesn't care or he doesn't give a damn. Girl is confused and angry. She leaves him alone with a heavy heart. At the same time, the bad guy has a rival in love-a smooth talking, popular, handsome, and friendly guy. This good guy has always been in love with the heroine but never has the chance until now, when the girl is hurt by the bad guy's actions. Girl becomes friendlier with good guy. Bad guy notices this. However, he feels inferior and so does nothing but sit back and enjoy the blossoming love between the two. But when shit hits him in the face, the realization that the girl may fall for the other guy for real, he tries hard to change. During this period, he learns a lot about himself and even tries to come to terms with his past. At the same time, good guy asks heroine to be his woman. Girl is confused and tries to shut herself off mentally from both guys. After some angsty episodes, she realizes she is truly in love with the bad guy. Bad guy and heroine, while thinking about each other, accidentally bump into each other at a bridge. Encounter is awkward, so girl tries to excuse herself from the scene. But bad guy catches her hand and tries to prevent her from leaving. He declares his love to her, while giving a speech about how she transforms his life, how she is the only one who accepts him for who and what he is, and how she lights up his life. The girl, with tears in her eyes, is so darn happy that she jumps into his arms.

The end.


The point is, all that angsty moment is what captivates readers. With good guys, there won't be a lot of relationship crisis happening between the two ( unless of course, if the interference presents itself in the form of families like Ouran). With crisis, readers will be anxious and excited (especially shoujo fans who will go OMG!! and waaaaaaahhhhhh!!!)to know what happens next. Anxious and excited. These two are the main selling points of a shoujo manga. So yeah, if I were the author, I would do the same. Flawed characters work best.
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Last edited by MUAHAHAHAHAHA; 2012-03-30 at 15:27.
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Old 2012-03-30, 15:22   Link #32
judasmartel
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Okay. I just took "good guy" to mean "a womanizer" right now. Though you don't necessarily mean the rival really IS a womanizer, though. Just popular with the girls or something like that.
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Old 2012-03-30, 15:25   Link #33
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Or better yet, how could we imagine some shoujo when the girl can't chose between the bad guy and the good guy because she never truly in love with one of them and then those guys want her to fall in love with one of them ?
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Old 2012-03-30, 15:27   Link #34
judasmartel
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Oh you mean, the typical love rivalry story? Gotta read Hana Yori Dango again...

Last edited by judasmartel; 2012-03-30 at 15:29. Reason: just kidding about that Spidey bit.
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Old 2012-03-30, 15:37   Link #35
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Oh you mean, the typical love rivalry story? Gotta read Hana Yori Dango again...
Not exactly like I'm talking about, but I just made my own theory of love triangle : girl is in love with two boys who are both popular at school, are both best friends but also rivals, girl doesn't realize that these guys are childhood friends to her.

I wonder if some people could read some random love-triangle overused drama shoujo for the lulz.
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Old 2012-03-30, 21:33   Link #36
gsilver
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I just find it kind of disturbing in Shoujo manga when I see scenes like:

Guy: About the whole raping you thing, I thought it would make me feel better, but it didn't. Sorry about that.
Girl: I don't mind! I was already in love with you so it's OK!

Intentionally made cruder, but disturbingly similar to a few series that I've read.
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Old 2012-03-30, 21:56   Link #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilver View Post
I just find it kind of disturbing in Shoujo manga when I see scenes like:

Guy: About the whole raping you thing, I thought it would make me feel better, but it didn't. Sorry about that.
Girl: I don't mind! I was already in love with you so it's OK!

Intentionally made cruder, but disturbingly similar to a few series that I've read.
And it's not disturbing if the roles are reversed ?
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Old 2012-03-30, 22:17   Link #38
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Originally Posted by ahelo View Post
It's so sad that something that sounds so superficial is actually the real hard truth. Generally speaking, women prefer badasses over nice guys.
You make a broad generalization that you arrogantly claim is "the real hard truth". Your statement is an opinion, nothing more. If you want to claim something as fact, you need solid proof. Trying to pass off your opinions as facts is just obnoxious.

If you've do have evidence, free feel to share I'm sure the people here will be happy to look it over and check if it's credible.
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Old 2012-03-30, 22:47   Link #39
Chiibi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilver View Post
I just find it kind of disturbing in Shoujo manga when I see scenes like:

Guy: About the whole raping you thing, I thought it would make me feel better, but it didn't. Sorry about that.
Girl: I don't mind! I was already in love with you so it's OK!

Intentionally made cruder, but disturbingly similar to a few series that I've read.
I will not touch any manga that does this.
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Old 2012-03-31, 10:28   Link #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilver View Post
I just find it kind of disturbing in Shoujo manga when I see scenes like:

Guy: About the whole raping you thing, I thought it would make me feel better, but it didn't. Sorry about that.
Girl: I don't mind! I was already in love with you so it's OK!

Intentionally made cruder, but disturbingly similar to a few series that I've read.
sounds like Shinjo Mayu's works
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