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Old 2012-10-25, 21:19   Link #1281
velocity7
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From what I gather from this episode, hue <> crime coefficient. Someone can have an extremely high crime coefficient like Kanehara, but have a decently stable hue that no one could suspect he was the killer unless he was checked using the Sibyl system. That's not to say that a hue wouldn't influence the coefficient though; I imagine what Kogami did probably pushed Kanehara from 120 to something close to 300.

On that note, if the factory manager is aware that Kanehara has been doing this and has been letting it fly in order to keep hue levels low, isn't he also committing a crime himself? They should check him to see his crime coefficient.

Also in regards to the Dominator's response to mobile weapons... if it is able to detect threats to the point of using another elimination mode, then I imagine that the fight in episode 1 reflects a helmet that tells the Dominator the crime coefficient was less than 60, as opposed to being an inanimate object with a chainsaw (which would have been read as a mobile weapon).
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Old 2012-10-25, 21:22   Link #1282
Dengar
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They should check everyone's crime coefficient for that matter.

Bullying is only one step away from terrorism.
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Old 2012-10-25, 21:24   Link #1283
velocity7
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Another question is, did Kanehara program that thing all by himself? Or did someone give it to him? I know he's a debugger, but we can't rule out the possibility of accomplices (such as the manager himself).
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Old 2012-10-25, 21:54   Link #1284
Dark Wing
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
All of this makes it seem like the Sibyl system is in fact, not the problem here. It's the people who make use of the system.
And this is most likely going to be the main focus of the plot later on in the story.
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Old 2012-10-25, 22:04   Link #1285
SRanger
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Did anyone else notice they used a track from the Madoka Magica OST in the 3rd episode of Psycho-pass?

They used la fille aux cheveux de lin (which is a famous piece), but Gen decided to use it again when they are in the cafeteria right in the beginning.
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Old 2012-10-25, 22:07   Link #1286
Chiaki_chan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Crime Coefficient and Hue seem to be clearly different things. A cold blooded murderer would still have a high Crime Coefficient, if I understand this correctly.

You know, this Sibyl system. We've seen bits and pieces of it over the last few episodes.

In the first episode we see the system advises a course of action depending on a combination of CC and circumstance (going to lethal mode after paralysis shot failed to work).

In the second episode, it is mentioned that the Sibyl system does more than just determine Crime Coefficients, it actually analyzes a person's aptitude for various jobs. It gave Akane a high aptitude for being an Inspector, and she shows an ability to empathize with the Enforcers, and make certain decisions that others wouldn't.

In the third episode, we get to a further emphasis on the difference between CC and Hue. The culprit's Hue was below the danger zone because the murders lowered it. The Sibyl system did assign a rather high Crime Coefficient regardless of this.

All of this makes it seem like the Sibyl system is in fact, not the problem here. It's the people who make use of the system.
Oh I agree includes
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Old 2012-10-25, 22:16   Link #1287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
All of this makes it seem like the Sibyl system is in fact, not the problem here. It's the people who make use of the system.
Well, as the saying goes: Guns don't kill people. People do.

The Sibyl System that condemned Shusei (redhead) at age five is the same one that rated Akane "A" across 13 ministries. As a profiling tool, it is more than likely accurate. It's how this society chose to interpret and use the data that makes all the difference.
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Old 2012-10-25, 22:43   Link #1288
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Well, as the saying goes: Guns don't kill people. People do.

The Sibyl System that condemned Shusei (redhead) at age five is the same one that rated Akane "A" across 13 ministries. As a profiling tool, it is more than likely accurate. It's how this society chose to interpret and use the data that makes all the difference.
Exactly. Shusei may have been at risk but what evidence is there that he was actually gonna be a criminal?
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Old 2012-10-25, 22:57   Link #1289
Azuma Denton
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So Cybil system can aslo detect a thread coming from non-living object such as machine. Wow. What a great system.

My only complain is that the factory supervisor is not getting any punishment after he deliberately left someone to be bullied. Even after it is proven in the ending. But maybe he'll become a recurring character in the next episode.
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Old 2012-10-25, 23:20   Link #1290
Dark Wing
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Originally Posted by KleenexGhost View Post
Exactly. Shusei may have been at risk but what evidence is there that he was actually gonna be a criminal?
Well remember what Ginoza said about the difference between learning form experience and history?

Maybe they've had examples of children with unusually high Psycho-pass readings end up turning to crime despite treatment and now make no exceptions as a result.

I'm not saying it's okay to lock a 5 year old up for life but I can see why they went that route.
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Old 2012-10-25, 23:27   Link #1291
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
But it's more than likely that Sibyl Judgment would have marked him as a latent criminal. Certainly, Shinya showed in the latest episode that he enjoys the thrill of the hunt and he clearly shows no hesitation in resorting to violence to get his prey — the identifying traits of a criminal, as defined by this alternative world.
Personally I think Shinya was marked as a latent criminal not just because of his behavior in this episode but because he is most likely willing to commit a crime to reach a goal he talked about in the previous episode.

However the question is just because you are marked as a latent criminal doesn't mean you will commit a crime. It's judging you for what you could do, not what you did and there are a lot of issues with this.

Let's say the system is wrong. Even if it is right most of the time, is it always right?
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Old 2012-10-25, 23:42   Link #1292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azuma Denton View Post
So Cybil system can aslo detect a thread coming from non-living object such as machine. Wow. What a great system.

My only complain is that the factory supervisor is not getting any punishment after he deliberately left someone to be bullied. Even after it is proven in the ending. But maybe he'll become a recurring character in the next episode.
We have no idea what happens yet. The episode ends right after the shootout.
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Old 2012-10-25, 23:44   Link #1293
TinyRedLeaf
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Let's say the system is wrong. Even if it is right most of the time, is it always right?
Would you say the Sibyl System was wrong about Akane? As the apparent prime beneficiary of the system, she does not doubt the Sibyl System. That, in itself, suggests that not all is wrong in this world.

I think we have to remember that, as viewers, we are witnessing episodes where the system is being pushed to its limits. We're seeing the people who have fallen through the cracks. Because we're shown scenes of the system at its worst, we as viewers become, in effect, biased observers. We've come to view the Sibyl System as something hopelessly broken.

Imagine if I were to visit a highly developed, First World country, like the United States, for example. What if I limited my tour to only the towns and cities that are failing economically because of the ongoing financial crisis? Let's say I see only homeless people slumming in public parks, druggies in dark alleys and rampant unemployment sapping young graduates of hope, even as they struggle with crippling student loans.

Am I not likely to come to the possibly mistaken conclusion that the American capitalist system is hopelessly broken and in dire need of fixing? Indeed, those who took part in the Occupation movement earlier this year quite probably felt that way.

Hypothetically, I don't think it's necessarily wrong to flag someone as young as five as a potential threat, given his biological/psychological profile, which is, in this world, supposedly backed up by implacably objective and hyper-reliable Sciencetm. It's how society responds to that threat that makes the difference. If, after isolating the individual, the state provides the necessary treatment to curb his biological tendencies, would you say it's wrong? If, through such treatment, the individual is "cured", wouldn't the state be doing a kindness in the long run?

Much of the unease expressed in this thread stems from how latent criminals are dealt with. I can see where the misgivings come from, but I wouldn't be so quick to blame the technology nor the system. I think, rather, that it's the society and its values that are the root problems, not the technology nor the methodology of its profiling process.
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Old 2012-10-25, 23:44   Link #1294
Shadow5YA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azuma Denton View Post
So Cybil system can aslo detect a thread coming from non-living object such as machine. Wow. What a great system.

My only complain is that the factory supervisor is not getting any punishment after he deliberately left someone to be bullied. Even after it is proven in the ending. But maybe he'll become a recurring character in the next episode.
The factor supervisor couldn't be apprehended anyway. If he's inside the factory, the Sybil system can't evaluate his Crime Coefficient. He is also calm enough for his Psycho-Pass to be a clear color.

And actually, he couldn't be prosecuted on the grounds of supporting the bullying anyway. His role is far too indirect. Even assuming that their court system is the same as ours, there is nothing to prove that he directly participated in the bullying.
If there was some way to prove that he directly persuaded the workers to bully Kanehara or that he was the one who provided Kanehara with the Johnny Mnemonic program as a murder weapon, then it would be a different story.
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Old 2012-10-26, 01:12   Link #1295
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
I think there are at least three different systems that each have slightly different functions: the Hue check, the dominator (Psycho-pass) and the Sibyl System. If I understand correctly, the Hue check reveals an individual's stress levels, which likely fluctuate in response to environmental stimuli. The Sibyl System appears to be the grand-daddy mainframe that does exhaustive profiling, taking into account not just Hue readings but also your biological data. Such profiling understandably takes a lot more time, a luxury that field officers do not enjoy, hence the use of dominators, which as Masaoka (the grizzled gumshoe) claims, shortcuts the entire profiling process through the Psycho-pass system.
Not quite. The Dominators allow them to jump the queue, but the evaluation's still done by Sybil. Hence the need for net access.
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Old 2012-10-26, 02:47   Link #1296
Kaoru Chujo
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Outstanding. I can niggle away at potential problems or inconsistencies, but overall these are great stories well told, and they are adding up to something.
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Old 2012-10-26, 03:18   Link #1297
Mentar
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What I really like about the Urobutcher's storytelling is that he avoids endless infodumps and rather gradually explains the setting in a way that makes the explanation relevant right here and now.

This episode was not about creating a brilliant surprising murder case - it's about the fundamental conflict between merely accepting the Sibyl system and not caring (see glasses' guy "The wise learn from history" viewing himself as a handler of dogs/enforcers) and Akane's more idealistic view "The fool learns from painful experience" who sees enforcers rather as colleagues and acting accordingly.

Akane finds out that her view might be a bit too rose-tinted, since Shinya did seem to enjoy the violence in the end. Was it worth it? The show is ambiguous on that - they DID succeed in identifying and apprehending the culprit, but it sure wasn't done in a way Akane was comfortable with. Unpleasant experience collected.

Other notables: So it seems that in order to create a "lawless" spot, you merely have to block out Sibyl radio waves. And somehow the thought of having places "without net uplink", creating places of isolation and ignorance, where violent abuse isn't merely turned a blind eye on but openly accepted, is chilling me to the bones. Utopia THAT ain't.
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Old 2012-10-26, 04:31   Link #1298
garbage
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well it's episode 3 and no one from the main cast dead yet ^^

good episode, Dominator mode this time was a bit OP for me though, it's not exactly useful for Law enforcement types to use weapons that can "Pass thru" the target thereby possibly endangering innocents, bystanders, or even their colleagues at the opposite side. That is why real life police rarely use High Caliber weapons in everyday work. Besides the target was a mechanical/ electrical/ electronic type, wouldn't a Electric surge or EMP blast be more effective AND SAFER? they do have the technology for that it seems.... but I guess it wouldn't be as COOL :/

i agree though, that they did catch the killer but seems they haven't solved the crime. well Gen seems to write like that, one episode shows whats happening and explanations happens in the following episode, so i guess we'll get something in the next week.
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Old 2012-10-26, 04:51   Link #1299
Quadratic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Would you say the Sibyl System was wrong about Akane? As the apparent prime beneficiary of the system, she does not doubt the Sibyl System. That, in itself, suggests that not all is wrong in this world.

I think we have to remember that, as viewers, we are witnessing episodes where the system is being pushed to its limits. We're seeing the people who have fallen through the cracks. Because we're shown scenes of the system at its worst, we as viewers become, in effect, biased observers. We've come to view the Sibyl System as something hopelessly broken.

Imagine if I were to visit a highly developed, First World country, like the United States, for example. What if I limited my tour to only the towns and cities that are failing economically because of the ongoing financial crisis? Let's say I see only homeless people slumming in public parks, druggies in dark alleys and rampant unemployment sapping young graduates of hope, even as they struggle with crippling student loans.

Am I not likely to come to the possibly mistaken conclusion that the American capitalist system is hopelessly broken and in dire need of fixing? Indeed, those who took part in the Occupation movement earlier this year quite probably felt that way.

Hypothetically, I don't think it's necessarily wrong to flag someone as young as five as a potential threat, given his biological/psychological profile, which is, in this world, supposedly backed up by implacably objective and hyper-reliable Sciencetm. It's how society responds to that threat that makes the difference. If, after isolating the individual, the state provides the necessary treatment to curb his biological tendencies, would you say it's wrong? If, through such treatment, the individual is "cured", wouldn't the state be doing a kindness in the long run?

Much of the unease expressed in this thread stems from how latent criminals are dealt with. I can see where the misgivings come from, but I wouldn't be so quick to blame the technology nor the system. I think, rather, that it's the society and its values that are the root problems, not the technology nor the methodology of its profiling process.
In my dark opinion, I think human behavior as a whole can be boiled down to a numbers game. Intuition is nothing more than invisible math in your head but is biased towards your own experience.
The system would obviously have more numbers than each individual so it lacks bias.
In the end, all the characters are playing a numbers game, but who's numbers they're relying on (the system or their own) is what's causing the largest conflict.

It's already been established that despite having such a system, humans still commit crimes, and even find ways to circumvent the system. Same issues, different MO.
The issue boils down to, are we willing to allow hundreds or thousands of crimes to happen, just because one potential criminal doesn't actually commit a crime?
I believe the majority will say yes, because we want to live in a world where everyone's given an equal chance, even if the outcome may prove to be worst from a distant view.

Anyway, I think the main flaw with the system is whether it stunts the growth of society as a whole.
We've already been given the idea that people are chained to a whatever path the system has chosen for them. They have zero chance to do better.
There is also an increasing reliance on machine, rather than themselves (well, it's debatable whether that's a good thing or not).

Spoiler for Puella Magi Madoka Magica:

Akane's definitely got a rocky path ahead of her. Unlike the rest of the world, she's been given choices: saving the victim by shooting Shinya, choosing her career, choosing sides between inspector vs enforcers.
What I hope will happen by the end of the series is that it's not a matter of right or wrong choices, it'll only be about consequences to every action.

Side note: For some reason, I'm getting hung up on the weather report from ep 2 (morning clouds giving way to sunny skies. 0% chance of precipication). There's nothing wrong with it, was there?
Or are are we suppose to analyze it deeper, like 'hey, they're still predicting the weather, shouldn't they solve that before moving on to humans?'
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Old 2012-10-26, 04:57   Link #1300
Dengar
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The weather report is obviously a symbolical thing. You may have notice that the descriptions of people's hues use similar terminology to the weather.
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