AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Fate/ Series

Notices

View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 16 Rating
Perfect 10 74 55.64%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 30 22.56%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 22 16.54%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 3.76%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.50%
Voters: 133. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-04-22, 10:16   Link #181
Randomzx
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crontica View Post
I can sense a lot of people have not watched or even mentioned the Soudanshitsu ova's before the second season of fate began. Please go and watch Fate/Zero: Onegai before continuing with this discussion.

The fact that the holy grail can choose not to grant your wish on any basis deemable by it's own judgement is already a blaring alarm bell that this is a futile quest at best, i can only assume Kirisugu has researched this critical information before hand, how he is going to restrain the grail is anyone's guess.

I am appalled at the number of people who are trying to twist Kirisugu's statements just to a avoid / gloss over / or sugarcoat a fundamental flaw with the physics of the earth.

Kirisugu has given his own piece of the pie on his own opinions on the matter of affairs the world is in. He has not said exactly how he is using the grail to bring this about, or what basis he is judging this entire fiasco on, one thing can be said for sure he is not in the sanest state of affairs.
The only 'judgement' was that the grail belong to the strongest, i.e. the winner. This is true especially considering the real circumstances surrounding the Holy Grail war.

from Fuyuki wiki.
'Einzbern Grails, provided there is a persona bestowed upon them, will give that same persona the special thaumaturgy trait of wish granting; casting spells without the direct knowledge of how to use them. Prana itself can be used unprocessed to do that persona's wishes while operating under the limitations of resources (how much prana there is) and time; [True] magic of course isn't possible.'

Basically its still a tool that the user must use manually to accomplish their wish. Its not like a genie, it just give you the tools to grant your wish by your own means.
Randomzx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-22, 11:14   Link #182
SagaraSouske
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
During the entire show, despite what was known about his assassination methods, Kirisugu hardly killed any innocent bystander. However cruel his methods it may seem, all the people he killed are master and servants of this game, or grail war as he sees it. These people are willing participants of a ruthless struggle under the condition of winner takes all. All Kirisugu is doing is using pragmatic methods to help him win this war - which is not quite the same as end justify the means as he isn't involving anyone outside of this struggle. As someone else may have mentioned earlier in an episode thread, if he really wanted to just win at any cost, he could have launched a nuke in the city once all the masters arrive and killed everyone and instantly win the war since no other servant really have strong enough defensive noble fantasms that could have protected their masters besides Saber.

You can say Kirisugu is ruthless and despises chivalry, pride, honor and anything that gets in front of reality of war. He is not quite at the point where he will kill 1000 to save 10000. All the sacrifice he made is of himself and those close to him, who are willing to be part of his plan. The Kirisugu Saber sees is what author wanted the reader/viewer to see but with hints here and there showing that's not the true Kirisugu. His one fault was not to get Saber buying into his true intentions - which I am sure she would if Kirisugu bother to open himself to her the same way he did to his wife. But if he did that, there would be much less story to tell.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic63006_2.gif
SagaraSouske is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-22, 12:39   Link #183
Kanon
Kana Hanazawa ♥
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: France
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
On the contrary, the earlier episodes of the first season showed the mindset of El-Melloi pretty well. He entered the war expecting that people participating in the war will play by a certain set of rules, like fine gentlemen. A mindset similar to someone who expect a Napoleonic war and gets assymmetrical war la Vietnam War instead. He never expected someone like Kiritsugu who is willing to bomb a hotel, he never expected someone bringing a gun to a mage fight, and he paid it dearly for it.
Kiritsugu's methods were outside of his expectations, but my point was that he knew it was a fight to the death from the start and decided to enter this war nevertheless. He was a willing participant and in now way a victim. He should known there was a big chance he and his wife would die miserably (we are aware for example that there were no survivors in the second war).

With that in mind, I honestly don't see why I should be bad for him, especially when he had such a petty reason for taking part in this war. He played and he lost, that's all there is to it.

Now, if Waver were to be killed in a similar fashion, I would definitely feel horrible for him, as he had no idea what he was in for. That and he is actually a likable character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
[INDENT]How were they despicable? Kayneth didn't do anything wrong this entire time except be a pompous ass. He didn't kill innocent children or anything. Sola-Ui was enchanted so you can't take her actions to heart. Everything Kayneth did was to win the war and Sola to win Lancer. There are much worse characters in this series and in fiction.

No, she did betray him. Forced him to give her his Command Seals and totally left him for Lancer. Guy got NTR'd.
He was a selfish, cruel, and petty asshole with a giant hubris. His only redeeming quality was his genuine love for Sola-Ui. I'm not saying he was so bad he "deserved" to die that way, but I definitely won't shed any tears for him.

Sola-Ui tortured a cripple without batting an eye. I'd say that's pretty despicable.
__________________
Rize and Kaneki
Kanon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-22, 12:47   Link #184
DragoZERO
Spoilaphobic
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
He was a selfish, cruel, and petty asshole with a giant hubris. His only redeeming quality was his genuine love for Sola-Ui. I'm not saying he was so bad he "deserved" to die that way, but I definitely won't shed any tears for him.
You gotta at least feel a little bad for the guy. He intended to take part in the Holy Grail War and lost more than just his life.

Quote:
Sola-Ui tortured a cripple without batting an eye. I'd say that's pretty despicable.
She was enchanted. Everything she did was because of her "feelings" towards Lancer, feelings that skewed her thought and actions beyond those that are normally accepted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by giorno View Post
CS are huge bundles of prana, pretty much. They can be burned to fuel spells. Stupidly powerful spells....
Err... I'm not too sure that Risei could use them for that. Nor that they can be used without a Servant and the Grail.
DragoZERO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-22, 13:05   Link #185
Vicious108
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlavoryFantasy View Post
re-reading this part now...I'm surprised Kiritsugu would even dare to get the reward.
I mean if Kirei returned as he was receiving it, I'm sure Kirei would've tailed him.
Yeah, I'm surprised to hear that as well. Kiritsugu had said beforehand he did not trust the judge of this war, so I figured he wouldn't even try and reclaim the reward. I guess another chance to control Saber's chivalrous ass was too good to pass up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Everyone needs to watch the first season over from the BDs too. People wondering why Sola was on the rooftop would find their answer.
Not to mention certain scenes would be bound to improve people's opinion of Kiritsugu, like his scene with Illya in episode 2. The BDs really are required viewing as far as I'm concerned and it's a shame a lot of S2 viewers seem to have overlooked them. Though I suppose it's inevitable for some people, given the pricing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
The Kirisugu Saber sees is what author wanted the reader/viewer to see but with hints here and there showing that's not the true Kirisugu.
Which is yet another way in which he mirrors Kirei. They both seem to be contradicting their true nature and are being torn apart on the inside for it. Only they're on rather opposite ends of the spectrum, which makes their rivalry all the more compelling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
He was a selfish, cruel, and petty asshole with a giant hubris. His only redeeming quality was his genuine love for Sola-Ui. I'm not saying he was so bad he "deserved" to die that way, but I definitely won't shed any tears for him.
He sacrificed all of his personal ambitions for the sake of his loved one and she didn't even love him back. That seems to be the exact opposite of selfish to me.

And he only really became cruel after Kiritsugu reduced him to that state and he was tortured and coerced into giving up what little modicum of pride he had left by his own wife. He didn't really display any particularly cruel behavior before fate itself was unbelievably cruel to him. Saying Kayneth was always cruel and thus deserved to die is like saying Lancer was a scornful bastard for cursing everyone in the end and thus deserves no pity for dying in misery. It's hard to keep up your spirit and virtues when everything you've ever wanted crumbles before your very eyes and life only feeds you shit.

So yeah, much like with some of the criticism thrown at Kiritsugu, I really have to disagree with claims that Kayneth was an actually evil person in any way. He might have had an unpleasant personality, but he was by no means an unredeemable villain and didn't deserve to go out the way he did. Few do, really, and he certainly wasn't one of them.
Vicious108 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-22, 13:10   Link #186
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
I thought Kayneth was pretty nasty and arrogant to Waver & to Lancer well before his battle with Kiritsugu.

Obviously there is more to his character and I will give him the fact that he clearly loved his wife but I just didn't see him as a good person. That doesn't mean I think he deserved to die. But then again either did the person he killed to get the command seal.
__________________
Kirarakim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-22, 13:26   Link #187
Vicious108
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I thought Kayneth was pretty nasty and arrogant to Waver & to Lancer well before his battle with Kiritsugu.
Like I said, the unpleasant personality was definitely always there, but he only truly became depraved enough to act the way he did in this episode, going as far as ruthlessly killing the harmless supervisor who had just helped him, after he was reduced to that sorry state. Does the fact he's suffered justify his actions and make him a good person? Certainly not. But I don't think it makes him a certifiably cruel person and one deserving of the fate he received either, just like Lancer's state at the end did not encompass all of his being. It's natural for people to show such facets when they're driven to the edge the way the Lancer team was, that's what makes these characters human and believable.
Vicious108 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-22, 13:32   Link #188
rpgman1
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Lawrenceville, GA
Age: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I thought Kayneth was pretty nasty and arrogant to Waver & to Lancer well before his battle with Kiritsugu.

Obviously there is more to his character and I will give him the fact that he clearly loved his wife but I just didn't see him as a good person. That doesn't mean I think he deserved to die. But then again either did the person he killed to get the command seal.
I wonder how Waver will react to Kayneth's death? Looks like he is still in over his head due to being young. Surely Waver will know about it soon enough anyway.
rpgman1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-22, 13:44   Link #189
Vicious108
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpgman1 View Post
I wonder how Waver will react to Kayneth's death? Looks like he is still in over his head due to being young. Surely Waver will know about it soon enough anyway.
That's actually one of the few things I'm disappointed with in Kayneth's demise, the fact that there wasn't any confrontation between him and his foil since their quick exchange back in the battle at the harbor. Their elitism/conservatism vs hard-work-can-overcome-bloodline feud could have been pretty interesting and a good addition to the major theme of the way the magus world functions in Fate, and it might have been particularly interesting to see Kayneth appear before his cheeky student after being reduced to that wheelchair, but I guess we'll never know now.
Vicious108 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-22, 14:10   Link #190
Craxuan
Crax
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: MY
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
He should known there was a big chance he and his wife would die miserably (we are aware for example that there were no survivors in the second war).
I'm surprised. He said right to his wife from the very beginning of the episode that he will caused her death. It's not a chance, dear Kanon. It's a certainty, and you will learn why very, very soon.
__________________
Craxuan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-22, 14:28   Link #191
hero147
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craxuan View Post
I'm surprised. He said right to his wife from the very beginning of the episode that he will caused her death. It's not a chance, dear Kanon. It's a certainty, and you will learn why very, very soon.
Kanon was referring to Archibald not Kiritsugu.
hero147 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-22, 14:52   Link #192
Craxuan
Crax
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: MY
Oh, my mistake. Then I should say that the Archibald had every confident that a mage of ancient bloodline like him would never, ever lose, despite the inadequacy he had shown during the first battle. I don't believe that he ever considered his death as a possible 'chance', but just downright impossibility. Now his wife however is another thing...

I think somewhere in Fate/Hollow Ataraxia Sola's past and fate was mentioned. Perhaps I was wrong, but I remember it to be very, very bad for Sola. Can someone confirm?
__________________
Craxuan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-22, 15:07   Link #193
Theorder14
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
maybe ur mistaking her for bazetto? short and similiar hair color.
Theorder14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-22, 15:12   Link #194
D2
Go Big Red!
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Heart of Liberion
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix6000 View Post
[COLOR="Green"]

Me thinks that you're preaching to the choir.

What I was trying to get across was that in all worlds, our own included, pain and misfortune befall those that do not necessarily deserve their company. I'm not saying Sola was innocent, but watching her get destroyed like that made me cringe. Even so, I still acknowledge the cruelness of reality. Women and children die all the time and sometimes in far more gruesome fashion. Some are born sick or get stuck in inescapable poverty. Life isn't fair.

As you may have noticed there are those among us that continue to condemn how Kiritsugu handled his business, because his methods conflict with their view of how things should be. I also suspect that it is because they have yet to accept that the world they live in is full of tragedy, evil and random chance.
Just because we know it's there doesn't mean we shouldn't despise or accept it.
__________________
D2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-22, 16:27   Link #195
Cyz
"Show it to me"
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: In solitude, where we are least alone
I know Kuritsugu is using whatever means necessary but he did it in such a cruel way that he didn't even shed mercy. He had a point on his reasonings though but he trampled a lot of emotions to do it. On a side note, Kayneth really did care for Sola that he decided to throw everything away even though he could get cursed for it.
__________________
~~ Project Cyz ~~
"There is no spoon"
~~~~~
Currently Watching:
-- too lazy to put it together --
~~~~~
Current sig:
Takanashi Rikka from
Chuunibyou Demo Koi ga Shitai!
~~~~
Big thanx to Patchy for the sig
Cyz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-22, 16:44   Link #196
Kaioshin Sama
Banned
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Neither Here nor There
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to Kaioshin Sama
Well can't say I didn't see something like this coming from Kiritsgu since he's been such a shady character that's always lurking and hiding in the shadows in order to cheap shot people when they least expect it. Definitely can't be classified as a hero character and I don't know, frankly I'm a little suspicious of his motives. He claims he wants to do what's best for humanity, but how can someone so clearly disturbed be trusted to carry something like that out? It's no small wonder Irisviel is starting to doubt him and Saber seemingly wants nothing to do with him anymore.

I can't help but feel something key has happened here. It's one thing for him to go his own way and do the things he's done, but the fact that he saw fit to deliberately wound everyone presents sense of honor is probably going to come back to haunt him somehow. Those last words by Diarmud are going to have lasting consequences inf the form of karma....I'm sure of it.
Kaioshin Sama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-22, 18:09   Link #197
Alaya
Counter Force
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Well can't say I didn't see something like this coming from Kiritsgu since he's been such a shady character that's always lurking and hiding in the shadows in order to cheap shot people when they least expect it. Definitely can't be classified as a hero character and I don't know, frankly I'm a little suspicious of his motives. He claims he wants to do what's best for humanity, but how can someone so clearly disturbed be trusted to carry something like that out? It's no small wonder Irisviel is starting to doubt him and Saber seemingly wants nothing to do with him anymore.

I can't help but feel something key has happened here. It's one thing for him to go his own way and do the things he's done, but the fact that he saw fit to deliberately wound everyone presents sense of honor is probably going to come back to haunt him somehow. Those last words by Diarmud are going to have lasting consequences inf the form of karma....I'm sure of it.
Actually, in the Novel, Saber after her confrontation with him believed that the only person who deserve to obtain the grail is Kiritsugu.
Spoiler for Saber on Kiritsugu from LN:
__________________
Fate/Zero: This was the tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and was driven to despair by them.

Madoka: This was the tale of magical girls whose wishes are pure and by them are driven to despair.
Alaya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-22, 18:13   Link #198
DragoZERO
Spoilaphobic
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
That's actually one of the few things I'm disappointed with in Kayneth's demise, the fact that there wasn't any confrontation between him and his foil since their quick exchange back in the battle at the harbor. Their elitism/conservatism vs hard-work-can-overcome-bloodline feud could have been pretty interesting and a good addition to the major theme of the way the magus world functions in Fate, and it might have been particularly interesting to see Kayneth appear before his cheeky student after being reduced to that wheelchair, but I guess we'll never know now.
I will have to disagree. It would have been bland and boring since Waver would have lost. What Kayneth said in the first episode about magi is true. Waver may be talented and smart but a big part of a magus' power is his/her family crest. Not to mention Waver is still learning. If they fought, they would have had a chance only because of Rider's NP. Waver would have stood there, doing nothing... as usual. And that is IF Rider was able to start his RM. Kayneth probably would have went for Waver the second the light turned green.

Also, I believe Waver is the audience in this series which is why I hope and expect him to survive after much Gen grief.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Well can't say I didn't see something like this coming from Kiritsgu since he's been such a shady character that's always lurking and hiding in the shadows in order to cheap shot people when they least expect it. Definitely can't be classified as a hero character and I don't know, frankly I'm a little suspicious of his motives. He claims he wants to do what's best for humanity, but how can someone so clearly disturbed be trusted to carry something like that out? It's no small wonder Irisviel is starting to doubt him and Saber seemingly wants nothing to do with him anymore.

I can't help but feel something key has happened here. It's one thing for him to go his own way and do the things he's done, but the fact that he saw fit to deliberately wound everyone presents sense of honor is probably going to come back to haunt him somehow. Those last words by Diarmud are going to have lasting consequences inf the form of karma....I'm sure of it.
Iri is still behind him, just a bit shocked. Plus, she was a little annoyed that Kiritsugu wouldn't talk to her girlfriend face-to-face.
DragoZERO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-22, 18:14   Link #199
Wandering_Youth
lost in wonder forever...
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: edge of my dream in the land of twilight...ZzzZzZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by U<3Anime View Post
Is Maya's knife really that strong? Strong enough to cut someone's arm off like that in one swoop?
Well not in one strong strike, you can cut off a person's arm fairly easily if you know what you're doing.

It's not really about strength, it's about technique and precision. Any butcher or chef that butchers their own meat knows how easy it is to separate bones and limbs once you found the joint liagament connnecting everything.
__________________
Wandering_Youth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-22, 18:36   Link #200
Vicious108
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
I will have to disagree. It would have been bland and boring since Waver would have lost. What Kayneth said in the first episode about magi is true. Waver may be talented and smart but a big part of a magus' power is his/her family crest. Not to mention Waver is still learning. If they fought, they would have had a chance only because of Rider's NP. Waver would have stood there, doing nothing... as usual. And that is IF Rider was able to start his RM. Kayneth probably would have went for Waver the second the light turned green.

Also, I believe Waver is the audience in this series which is why I hope and expect him to survive after much Gen grief.
I don't think it's ever that simple with the Holy Grail War that you can predict with absolutely certainty what will happen between two Masters. And you'll notice I suggested Waver come across wheelchair Kayneth, who wouldn't even be able to challenge him to a fight. And, more importantly, a confrontation doesn't necessarily equate to a fight either. In fact, I would probably be more interested in an ideological debate when it comes to those two, rather than any sort of action sequence. But oh well, that chance is gone now, so no point in dwelling on it.

And just because Waver is the closest thing we've got to a participant the average viewer can relate to doesn't mean he should remain safely uninvolved throughout the entirety of the series. I don't wish any excessive grief on him, but I certainly don't want him to simply stay hidden and tucked away under Rider's wing throughout the remainder of the war. That would be a disservice to a character with a lot of potential for quality development.
Vicious108 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:03.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.