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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 16 Rating
Perfect 10 74 55.64%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 30 22.56%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 22 16.54%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 3.76%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.50%
Voters: 133. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-04-21, 22:54   Link #101
kj1980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
1. and 2. Actually, if Kiritsugu never intended to honor the contract when he entered into it, then he didn't bargain in good faith, therefore the contract would be void. But more importantly, its clear that after the contract was signed Kiritsugu still intended Archibald and his fiancee to die, so these two points are irrelevant.
Ex post facto

Laws cannot be applied retroactively, whether it is based on good faith or not.

If you commit murder in the year 2000 and there is no law against murder back then, but if law is passed in 2012 that makes murder a severe punishable offense, you cannot be convicted of murder that you committed back in 2000.


prior to contract:
Kiritsugu and Maiya conspired to murder Kayneth and Sola-Ui

contract:
I, Kiritsugu will not murder Kayneth and Sola-Ui

after contract:
Maiya sniped Kayneth and Sola-Ui. Kiritsugu did not pull the trigger, fulfilling his obligation of not murdering Kayneth and Sola-Ui. The conspiracy was made prior to the contract therefore Kiritsugu is not guilty by ex post facto. The blood on the perpetrator's hands lies solely on Maiya.
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Old 2012-04-21, 22:54   Link #102
blitz1/2
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
"All's fair is love and war" and "The end justifies the means" is merely the most popular justification for atrocities in human history. Saber's POV is definitely naive and Kiritsugu is right that many people have died for that, too. But Kiritsugu's path is evil and no good can come of it - history should at least tell us that much. Moral relativism simply doesn't work.

Urobuchi is obviously fascinated with these Kyuubey, Kiritsugu characters - beings who do horrible things under the absolutel assumption that they know best and no sacrifice is too great to execute their vision. It's typical Urobuchi (and highly unusual generally) to ask terribly hard questions and offer no answers, and it's not as if saying Kiritsugu is wrong makes any of the other heroes or masters right - that's why history has a lot more examples of oppression and slaughter than it does of enlightened and just societies.
Only from a certain point of view. It's completely subjective, one's good is another's evil. For Kiritsugu, it'a matter of scale, to kill 1, you save 1000. I don't know about you, but I would gladly do the same.
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Old 2012-04-21, 22:59   Link #103
Kirarakim
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I don't know if I would compare Kyuubey and Kiritsugu. I suppose they both have an "ends justifies the means" stance but Kyuubey didn't even understand what he was doing can be seen as "evil" by others. That makes him fundamentally different than Kiritsugu.

I have a feeling Kiritsugu will regret the path he is on before the end. I wonder if Lancer's curse will come true.
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Old 2012-04-21, 23:16   Link #104
Vicious108
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
"All's fair is love and war" and "The end justifies the means" is merely the most popular justification for atrocities in human history. Saber's POV is definitely naive and Kiritsugu is right that many people have died for that, too. But Kiritsugu's path is evil and no good can come of it - history should at least tell us that much. Moral relativism simply doesn't work.
And bloody fantasies of militaristic romantics do?

It's easy to criticize his way, but the fact is that none of the characters have been shown to be able to provide a viable alternative. Saber's way, in particular, has already been shown to fail miserably, which is the whole reason she's partaking in the war in the first place.

And I don't think you quite grasp how much Kiritsugu truly means it when he says he wants to save the world. Not everything he says is true, as his glare at Saber proved, but if you believe he's out there, doing the things he does, merely to stroke his own ego, you've definitely misunderstood his character, in my view. Though I suppose this sort of discussion is best left for later on in the series.
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Old 2012-04-21, 23:18   Link #105
Guardian Enzo
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I don't know if I would compare Kyuubey and Kiritsugu. I suppose they both have an "ends justifies the means" stance but Kyuubey didn't even understand what he was doing can be seen as "evil" by others. That makes him fundamentally different than Kiritsugu.

I have a feeling Kiritsugu will regret the path he is on before the end. I wonder if Lancer's curse will come true.
They're certainly different, but I think the difference is mainly one of personality - Kyuubey was obviously more clinical and Kiritsugu is extremely subject to human emotion. But the operating philosophy is basically the same.

The issue again is, where does one draw the line when you you accept the premise that the end justifies the means? Is it okay to kill 999 people to save 1000 - or just 1? Is it OK to kill 5 adults to save 10, but not 5 children? Once the limiter of right and wrong is removed, there's no basis to draw that line. It becomes completely arbitrary - it's up to the executioner. If Kiritsugu says it's OK, it's OK - if he says it isn't, it isn't.

And again - once you put all the rules in the hands of the one with the power (which is inseparable from moral relativism) what happens if that person is wrong?
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Old 2012-04-21, 23:21   Link #106
ChronoReverse
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Kiritsugu would kill 5 children to save 10 people. That's his tragedy; he views every single person as equally worth saving and thus will sacrifice the least to save the most.

He's wrong but he doesn't know it yet. In any case, gaining an single unlimited wish certainly would solve everything and he is willing to sacrifice himself in totality to gain it (the new world he wishes for won't include himself).
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Old 2012-04-21, 23:25   Link #107
Guardian Enzo
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
And bloody fantasies of militaristic romantics do?

It's easy to criticize his way, but the fact is that none of the characters have been shown to be able to provide a viable alternative. Saber's way, in particular, has already been shown to fail miserably, which is the whole reason she's partaking in the war in the first place.

And I don't think you quite grasp how much Kiritsugu truly means it when he says he wants to save the world. Not everything he says is true, as his glare at Saber proved, but if you believe he's out there, doing the things he does, merely to stroke his own ego, you've definitely misunderstood his character, in my view. Though I suppose this sort of discussion is best left for later on in the series.
Indeed it is, as that sounds pretty close to a spoiler. But to address the point: as I said, merely saying the other players are wrong doesn't make Kiritsugu right. That's why I say Urobuchi is asking tough questions and not providing answers.

Kiritsugu is, in his way, doing what he thinks is right. The problem is, he's going strictly by his own code to make that decision - that's where the ego is. The fundamental structure of Kiritsugu's argument is built around the notion that he's right and doesn't need to entertain any other possibility.

Someone thinking he's right won't reassure anyone who knows their history - just the opposite. Relativism is an all-in bet - you either accept that it's an acceptable philosophy or you don't. I don't. Mind you, absolutism (which is close to what Saber practices) doesn't have a very good historical track record, either.
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Old 2012-04-21, 23:27   Link #108
Alaya
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
"All's fair is love and war" and "The end justifies the means" is merely the most popular justification for atrocities in human history. Saber's POV is definitely naive and Kiritsugu is right that many people have died for that, too. But Kiritsugu's path is evil and no good can come of it - history should at least tell us that much. Moral relativism simply doesn't work.

Urobuchi is obviously fascinated with these Kyuubey, Kiritsugu characters - beings who do horrible things under the absolutel assumption that they know best and no sacrifice is too great to execute their vision. It's typical Urobuchi (and highly unusual generally) to ask terribly hard questions and offer no answers, and it's not as if saying Kiritsugu is wrong makes any of the other heroes or masters right - that's why history has a lot more examples of oppression and slaughter than it does of enlightened and just societies.
They are both just being efficient by sacrificing few to save many. They are not evil, they are just being a True Neutral (if going by D&D alignment). If bloodshed cannot be avoided, then why not minimize the casualty? War is hell and his aim is just to end it as fast as possible with the least amount of people dying. And we have already seen how a Holy Grail War can harm a lot of people who are innocence, it's better to finish it as fast as possible even it's mean he has to rely on dirty trick.

In the end there's no answer to what is right and what is wrong, good or evil. And human will continue to sacrifice few to save many. Kiritsugu (and Kyubei if he has emotion) just willingly shoulder the sin of killing to save as many people as he can.
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Old 2012-04-21, 23:31   Link #109
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
The issue again is, where does one draw the line when you you accept the premise that the end justifies the means? Is it okay to kill 999 people to save 1000 - or just 1? Is it OK to kill 5 adults to save 10, but not 5 children? Once the limiter of right and wrong is removed, there's no basis to draw that line. It becomes completely arbitrary - it's up to the executioner. If Kiritsugu says it's OK, it's OK - if he says it isn't, it isn't.

And again - once you put all the rules in the hands of the one with the power (which is inseparable from moral relativism) what happens if that person is wrong?

Well I personally don't agree with the "end justifies the means" or the whole idea of Utilitarianism. But at least where I do agree with Kiritsugu is that there is nothing is noble about war and he at least is fighting with no illusions about that.

As much as I liked Saber & Lancer...I think their idea of what war is was a little naive to say the least. I do however agree with Saber that there has to be some form of justice at least (hence in war we hopefully don't kill unarmed men, women & children as an example).


However I think in the case of Lancer his death was indirectly his fault too because he never truly understood what type of war he was fighting in. He wanted to get his honor back...but what honor is there in war?
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Old 2012-04-21, 23:32   Link #110
ChronoReverse
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There's also the way QB doesn't really understand what he's doing is horrible while Kiritsugu fully understands and has decided that since the Holy Grail can grant a single unlimited wish that he'll continue in order to achieve. In a way, he sacrificed being a hero of justice in order to achieve it.
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Old 2012-04-21, 23:35   Link #111
FlareKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
Kiritsugu would kill 5 children to save 10 people. That's his tragedy; he views every single person as equally worth saving and thus will sacrifice the least to save the most.

He's wrong but he doesn't know it yet. In any case, gaining an single unlimited wish certainly would solve everything and he is willing to sacrifice himself in totality to gain it (the new world he wishes for won't include himself).
And there comes the problem of putting everything in for the victory. If he can come out on top it's all good, but if he can't then he gets stuck with all that blood left on his hands. Of course clearly that's an acceptable bet or we wouldn't be here. I just think it's a lot to shoot for when you have opponents like Gilgamesh and someone like Kirei out there after him.

In the end if no one is right in terms of their stances, I'll stick with the side that I dislike the least and is the least wrong. Kiritsugu's path has just way too much mess and ugliness attached to it. Which is too bad since it doesn't leave many masters to support in all this. Kariya is just doomed and at this rate something terrible will happen to Waver just because he isn't a bad guy....
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Old 2012-04-21, 23:44   Link #112
ChronoReverse
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That's the beauty (or ugliness) of Zero, there's no "hero of justice" to cheer for. It makes for a very interesting story especially as a prequel for Stay Night.
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Old 2012-04-21, 23:44   Link #113
Guardian Enzo
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If anyone cares to jump into the wayback machine, the Madoka threads were riddled with this very same argument - is that a coincidence? I don't think so - I think Urobuchi continues to be fascinated by the same questions, and has decided that life provides no easy answers. Sorry fans - he's not giving us any help there.

Consequentialism or relativism or Machiavellian or whatever, this philosophy has been around for millennia, under many names, and the arguments about it have been around just as long.
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Old 2012-04-21, 23:45   Link #114
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
That's the beauty (or ugliness) of Zero, there's no "hero of justice" to cheer for. It makes for a very interesting story especially as a prequel for Stay Night.
I cheer for Rider & Waver....although I already know (without having to be told) that they are not going to win. I just hope they last for a few more episodes.
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Old 2012-04-21, 23:46   Link #115
ChronoReverse
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I cheer for Rider & Waver....although I already know (without having to be told) that they are not going to win. I just hope they last for a few more episodes.
Haha, Waver is one of the few who aren't that terrible simply because he's young and in quite over his head really. Him and Rider make a good team.
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Old 2012-04-21, 23:50   Link #116
Vicious108
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Indeed it is, as that sounds pretty close to a spoiler. But to address the point: as I said, merely saying the other players are wrong doesn't make Kiritsugu right. That's why I say Urobuchi is asking tough questions and not providing answers.

Kiritsugu is, in his way, doing what he thinks is right. The problem is, he's going strictly by his own code to make that decision - that's where the ego is. The fundamental structure of Kiritsugu's argument is built around the notion that he's right and doesn't need to entertain any other possibility.

Someone thinking he's right won't reassure anyone who knows their history - just the opposite. Relativism is an all-in bet - you either accept that it's an acceptable philosophy or you don't. I don't. Mind you, absolutism (which is close to what Saber practices) doesn't have a very good historical track record, either.
Well, just so you know, I haven't read the source material and am basing this view on certain moments of Kiritsugu people seem to have missed or forgotten. Him blowing up Kayneth's building back in episode 6, for example, was very revealing when it comes to his character. In the first episode he was said to be a man who would bring down an entire plane if his target was on it, but there he made sure to resort to arson first so everyone but his target would evacuate the building beforehand. And even then he still showed a brief and subtle moment of melancholy when he saw a young girl being held by her mother, crying at the loss of their home. As you said, he is still very much subject to human emotion, no matter how hard he tries to embrace stoicism, and said emotion has been hinted to be a touch of sorrow for what he believes he must turn himself into in order to achieve his goal of saving the world. Which is why I don't believe it's an ego thing, since said view assumes he's actually deriving some sort of satisfaction or contentment from playing the role of the pragmatic bastard who will sacrifice anything for what he sees as the greater good. But I - really - don't see that in him. It's the other way around, I see him being tortured by that need to, as he admitted it himself, stain his hands with every evil in the world.

And as a side note, the Sound Drama that came with the BDs of Season 1 also shed a significant amount of light on Kiritsugu's nature, and I'm indeed using it to form my view of the character, but I understand that side material like that is not something that every viewer can be expected to have experienced.

Also, comparisons to actual real history don't entirely work here, since obviously in real life there's never been a war where an omnipotent wish-granting device was at stake. Kiritsugu claims this war will be the last time blood will ever be shed and if the Holy Grail is indeed what it's said to be, then he could indeed make that a reality. So unless you think Kiritsugu's lying about his wish to save the world and will use the Grail for something else, I don't see how you might consider what he's doing to be a certifiably evil and selfish act. Ending all wars forever, no matter how you spin it, is not the wish of an evil man who acts entirely based on his ego's whims.
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Old 2012-04-22, 00:03   Link #117
Allium
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This episode makes me feel as if F/Z has returned to its darker roots once more, in the sense that a couple of episodes ago almost everyone had teamed up to fight the Caster team, and now they're back to targeting each other.

Kayneth was never one of my favourite characters, exemplified by some of his deeds in this episode (killing Risei, yelling at his one remaining ally) and in the first season, but his death was still painful. And Lancer...need I say more? It's sad see someone who highly valued honour and chivalry go in such a terrible fashion, screaming curses with eyes full of hatred.

Other than that, I loved the Saber-and-Kiritsugu exchange in this episode. We get to hear Kiritsugu's opinions on chivalry and this once more puts a strain on their Master-Servant relationship. In contrast to Saber's ideals of honour, Kiritsugu is ruthless and will do anything to achieve his goals. ( “If I must stain my hands with every evil in the world, I don’t care.") And that look he gave Saber at the end of their conversation was priceless.

Again, a very good episode.
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Old 2012-04-22, 00:03   Link #118
rpgman1
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Watching this episode is quite brutal and gruesome. Lancer's face scares the heck out of me like a vampire and cursing the Grail to be tainted. Kayneth is still way over his head and pride to think he would get the Grail, so he shot the priest who gave him only one Command Seal. Biggest shocker for me is Kiritsugu Emiya who devised a devious plan to win the War and obtain the Grail. His methods are more in line with assassinations and stealth. I don't see him as evil, but he sure does like to manipulate things to his advantage.
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Old 2012-04-22, 00:08   Link #119
germanturkey
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very very intense episode. but it felt too rushed to have the heavy emotional impact i think they were trying to get across.
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Old 2012-04-22, 00:13   Link #120
SJCrew
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My opinion of Kiritsugu is still very low. He's help moving the plot along in the very least (somebody has to do it...), but for as connected with the series of events he is and the amount of screen time he is given, he's still as flat as a cardboard and frustratingly stubborn. Most assassins don't waste five minutes of my time debriefing in plain sight and ignoring his subordinates. We barely know anything about him to boot. Can he at least get some cool lines or something? He's more of a plot device than a character at this point...



Thank you, Iris.

Last edited by SJCrew; 2012-04-22 at 00:29.
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