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Old 2012-03-29, 18:30   Link #1
Kameruka
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In shoujo, why the girl ignores nice guys?

As title states, this is my personal response to Classified Info's "Why male characters often push away willing girls?". This is neither parody nor corruption of that thread but more like my personal opinion/views on shoujo romance.

I know I should judge entire shoujo genre by seeing at least one of them but Yumeiro Patissire(am I spelled it right?) is the latest anime that makes my blood boil, in bad way. I wonder why the red-haired heroine ignores nicer green-haired boy and went straight to the ignorant blonde-haired boy What worse she also seems to forget how many times the green-haired one helped her(along with purple haired boy who also nice to her as well). What makes my blood boil is YP is a shoujo show aimed for preteen girls, rather than older ones. I'm not even touching the ones made for older girls and young women like "smut" and such. I'm sure this trend got even worse.

I hate to say this but please make sure you don't bring reverse harem in our discussion, like Ouran High School Host Club and Fruit Basket for examples. For me Ouran is nothing but shoujo parody of popular shounen harems like an unpopular guy meet bunch of beautiful girls and each with pros and cons, Ouran only reversed the gender. If there is a shounen/seinen version of Ouran and I bet it will not be as popular.

Last edited by Kameruka; 2012-03-29 at 18:48.
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Old 2012-03-29, 18:43   Link #2
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Well to be fair, it kinda illustrates real life. Do you see nice guys getting the girls? Nope usually the dickheads. It's not until girls have gone through a "highway of dickheads" that they realise the benefits of a nice guy. Too bad by then, a lot of the nice guys have turned into dickheads because of the lack of success by nice guys have forced to change. Reality is cruel .

There's interesting psychology to why girls prefer dickheads over nice guys. It mainly has got to do with relationship payoff, where if the dickhead converts to a nice guy in the hands of the girl that's a huge psychological gain. This of course seldom happens, but it's a very common trope used in teen dramas and shojo manga.
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Old 2012-03-29, 18:52   Link #3
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In a way, it mirrors real life situation. With bad boys type, you need to exert more mental and physical effort to attain their attention and ultimately, their heart. There's more at stake.You are betting your pride as a woman to turn the odds into your favour. With good guys...well, you don't really need to work extra hard. The challenge is not there. Speaking personally, the art of flirtation and all that comes before the relationship is cemented depends on how challenging and fun it is to get the guy.The guy is your ultimate trophy after all.
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Old 2012-03-29, 19:45   Link #4
Yuna Amakura
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Most of the time because they are dumb.
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Old 2012-03-29, 20:20   Link #5
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And what are the other qualities of the nice guys other than being nice. If nothing, he should man up and deal with it. After all, guys want a mysterious girl, a tsundere, or the big breasted girl but not Miss Plain.
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Old 2012-03-29, 20:46   Link #6
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Well, why do tsunderes usually win out in harem and/or love triangle situations? And when they don't, the mysterious girlfriend (i.e. a character that's not quite human) tends to win out over the nice, normal girl.

I find that for an anime romance to be compelling for more than just an episode or two, there needs to be either internal friction (i.e. between the couple) or external pressure (i.e. exterior forces challenging the couple) in play. A nice, sweet romance without any practical obstacles in its way can be a pleasant watch for awhile, but will tend to grow a bit stale after that's been played out a bit, imo.

With Nice Girl/"Bad Boy" or Nice Guy/Tsundere, you at least get a little bit of internal friction going on here, with it being easier to have sparks fly in dialogue between the romantic partners, giving it all a bit of an edge.

If a pairing is Nice Guy/Nice Girl, you need to have it challenged somewhat (one or the other having a serious and frequently complicating illness, for example). And some writers would rather work on the interactions between the couple than on coming up with external forces to challenge the couple.
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Old 2012-03-29, 20:55   Link #7
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Women tend to like to be treated poorly by their partners.
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Old 2012-03-29, 21:50   Link #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Well, why do tsunderes usually win out in harem and/or love triangle situations? And when they don't, the mysterious girlfriend (i.e. a character that's not quite human) tends to win out over the nice, normal girl.

I find that for an anime romance to be compelling for more than just an episode or two, there needs to be either internal friction (i.e. between the couple) or external pressure (i.e. exterior forces challenging the couple) in play. A nice, sweet romance without any practical obstacles in its way can be a pleasant watch for awhile, but will tend to grow a bit stale after that's been played out a bit, imo.

With Nice Girl/"Bad Boy" or Nice Guy/Tsundere, you at least get a little bit of internal friction going on here, with it being easier to have sparks fly in dialogue between the romantic partners, giving it all a bit of an edge.

If a pairing is Nice Guy/Nice Girl, you need to have it challenged somewhat (one or the other having a serious and frequently complicating illness, for example). And some writers would rather work on the interactions between the couple than on coming up with external forces to challenge the couple.
Triple R said it best. Two super-nice people together just isn't.....interesting. I do have more to add, however, being REALLY well-rehearsed in shoujo manga. XD There are several cases on WHY the "prince-like guy" is ignored.

Case A: "Prince" is the heroine's childhood friend so he feels more like a brother to her, even if he doesn't feel the same.
This case makes the most sense to me. I think childhood friend requited love could possibly be the least realistic situation anime and manga have come up with. I mean, how many people end up marrying the same person they played in a sandbox with when they were five? Really?

Case B: Heroine has a crush on/dates the "Prince" but something happens that destroys the relationship.
Kinda self-explanatory. The "Prince" either dies or is forced to get back with his ex-girlfriend, leading the heroine to fall into a Second Love.

Case C: The rival boy to the "Prince" is badly damaged and scarred, thus the heroine feels "he needs her more" and chooses to be with him.
This is the case with Fruits Basket. Yuki is super popular and could date anyone he wants. Kyou is an outcast, hated by everyone. The only girl who could heal his heart was Tooru.
Quote:
Women tend to like to be treated poorly by their partners.
Bullshit.

Case D: The "Prince" is just a dumb character who stands there and doesn't be the hero like the other guy
THIS ONE IS REALLY IMPORTANT. I like to refer to this VERY common love triangle as Prince Verses Knight. The Prince is kind through....words. Just words. The Knight is the one who's not as soft-spoken, in fact, he may talk a bit uncouth to you but his actions totally make up for it.Take Kirarin Revolution for example. We have Seiji, the blond, polite, sparkly "Prince" who's quite air-headed and dense to Kirari's ridiculous crush on him and he just kinda stands around looking dumb, and then we have Hiroto, who's foul-mouthed and little bit rude but he'll risk life and limb to help Kirari. Guess which one Kirari chooses? Guess which one I would ALSO choose? What type of guy would sweep you off your feet more? The one who smiles nicely and says "Good Morning" and walks away or the one who just threw himself into the road to save you from getting hit by a truck, even if he is calling you an idiot?

Case E: The heroine is so smitten with her main love interest because "he was first" that the "nice guy" gets left out in the cold
This is one of those rare situations I don't like so much....if the main love interest is super-boring. The strongest example I can think of is Ayashi No Ceres. I really liked Yuuhi. He was the "normal boy" and he was warm, kind, yet spirited and comical so he wasn't a boring character. Certainly not a "Prince" but a realistic, well-rounded "Nice Guy". But NOOOO, Aya chooses Tooya-The-Robot because "he kissed her first". T______T LAAAAAAAAAME.

Quote:
Most of the time because they are dumb.
TRY AGAIN.

Quote:
I wonder why the red-haired heroine ignores nicer green-haired boy and went straight to the ignorant blonde-haired boy What worse she also seems to forget how many times the green-haired one helped her(along with purple haired boy who also nice to her as well).
Because Ichigo isn't attracted to the green-haired one. She likes Makoto. And Makoto isn't ignorant. Ichigo doesn't go "straight" to him-I stopped after 18 episodes and they still weren't together. Girls don't fall for guys who are mean to them BECAUSE they are mean. They only go for them when they BEGIN TO ACT NICER. Such as the case with Beauty and the Beast. It's really the same deal as that.
Quote:
What makes my blood boil is YP is a shoujo show aimed for preteen girls, rather than older ones.
Why? Do you honestly think a TV anime is going to imprint into little girls, "Don't go out with the nice one-go with the one that treats you like crap"? NO!! You need to give children more credit. They're not that stupid. I saw Beauty and the Beast when I was eight and I did NOT grow up thinking, "Gee, I'm going to go find a selfish asshole, change him into a good guy and MARRY HIM!"
It's fantasy!

But Kameruka, I suggest you read Koko Ni Iru Yo. She picks the nicer guy and it only makes sense because of her shy, introverted personality, the last thing she needed was someone being mean to her. So she chose wisely. <---Indy quote

The last point I'm going to make here is A "bad boy" is just a "nice boy with emotional baggage". Once his insecurities dissolve, you'll find out he's just a sweetheart, who's even nicer and more committed than the flat, sparkly "Prince" from the beginning.
also "bad boy" characters are usually more passionate, which makes a romance with him even hotter.

Just for the record though, I MUCH prefer "Knights" over "Bad Boys" because the "Knight" is generally warmer and kinder and barely does anything wrong to hurt the girl, outside of an occasional verbal burn. And this doesn't even "hurt" her, it just pisses her off. XD And like that or not, a guy who is not capable of saying ANYTHING to make a girl angry or sad, my friends, just does not exist. Which is why I tend to HATE "Princely Nice Guys". They're just so damn fake and feel like....well, pretty cardboard cut-outs that talk, instead of real people.
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Last edited by Chiibi; 2012-03-29 at 23:07.
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Old 2012-03-29, 22:05   Link #9
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I haven't seen much shoujo, but in what I've seen the girl went for a normal guy, not a douche or anything. Maybe you're seeing a pattern that doesn't exist.

In general though, no matter how much somebody would be perfect for you, if you aren't physically attracted to them then it's not who you're going to choose.

The whole "girls choose bad boys" thing might be true for some girls, but overall I'd put it in the myth or urban legend basket.
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Old 2012-03-29, 22:24   Link #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Byakou View Post

The whole "girls choose bad boys" thing might be true for some girls, but overall I'd put it in the myth or urban legend basket.
It's a cliche older than the hills and it was hardly invented by anime and manga creators. I kinda hate how Kameruka (and a lot of others) are ignoring the difference between a boy who's a little immature and short-tempered and a man who is dangerous and is actually a very immoral person who would do nothing but hurt the girl, yet "she loves him because she likes being treated that way".

NO, THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE, HERE?
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Old 2012-03-30, 00:04   Link #11
judasmartel
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Can somebody suggest animes with "Knights" winning over the "Bad Boys" here, then?

Personally, I like "Knight" main leads as well. I always look up to this character type because they are VERY protective of their love interests.

Too bad it gets too cliched as well, just like the "Bad Boys". But at least the latter is more realistic as "Knights" in real life are quite the rare species nowadays.

I have to ask, though, is it true that guys tend to treat their love interest like how they treat their own mothers? Although, I believe in the saying, "A man needs a wife, NOT a maid."

Spoiler for Food for thought:
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Old 2012-03-30, 00:20   Link #12
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There was also another discussion about why too many shoujo manga relationships look alot like stockholm syndrome. Like in Beauty and the Beast.

I don't mind this type of show but I'm worried about the message it gives. In the show the guy is too often a bishie jerk with a mysterious (and painful) past that just needs a little love and understanding to get over his issues. Does that really apply to real life? Hardly.. some guys are just jerks. Others know this trope and play it to their advantage.

By the way, is a painful and mysterious past really a requirement for a guy?

In all fairness, the guys in shonen romances rarely go for the plain, nice girl that was crushing for them since childhood but that's because they're idiots.
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Old 2012-03-30, 00:21   Link #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
Can somebody suggest animes with "Knights" winning over the "Bad Boys" here, then?
Aquarion EVOL certainly seems to be going this way.
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Old 2012-03-30, 00:59   Link #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
Can somebody suggest animes with "Knights" winning over the "Bad Boys" here, then?
There aren't really any I can think of. The Knight's rival is always a Prince. =3=

Quote:
Personally, I like "Knight" main leads as well. I always look up to this character type because they are VERY protective of their love interests.
Yes.

Quote:
I have to ask, though, is it true that guys tend to treat their love interest like how they treat their own mothers?
In media, it seems to be this way, the same way a girl may choose a love interest who resembles her father. Why this is I'm not so sure but I think it probably has to do with maternal instinct every girl is born with, while the father resemblance has to do with protecting the girl to the death as a father would.

Quote:
There was also another discussion about why too many shoujo manga relationships look alot like stockholm syndrome. Like in Beauty and the Beast.
B&B is not f*cking stockholm syndrome and people who say so do not do their research!

Quote:
I don't mind this type of show but I'm worried about the message it gives. In the show the guy is too often a bishie jerk with a mysterious (and painful) past that just needs a little love and understanding to get over his issues. Does that really apply to real life? Hardly.. some guys are just jerks. Others know this trope and play it to their advantage.
Like I said before, it's a common fantasy. Depending on how the young girl reading the story is raised, she is not likely to believe in this fantasy once she becomes old enough to be interested in boys.
I think real women end up in abusive relationships because a. she doesn't try to get to know the real him-they just jump into bed and he ends up being able to control her emotionally or b. her self-esteem is so low, she thinks she couldn't find a better guy.

Quote:
By the way, is a painful and mysterious past really a requirement for a guy?
Lol no, but it's a good gimmick writers use to bring the couple closer together because the girl can heal him. There are some manga with normal boys with normal pasts...but in ratio, it's not even close to ones who are tortured. In the less extreme examples, one of the boy's parents will be dead, or have left the family, bringing in some angst. Or sometimes it's not even mentioned.

Quote:
In all fairness, the guys in shonen romances rarely go for the plain, nice girl that was crushing for them since childhood but that's because they're idiots.
Just because a character doesn't go for a childhood romance doesn't make him an "idiot" It probably feels awkward as hell. Just like how it would in real life. I don't get this fetish/fantasy and I NEVER will, I think. Because I can't relate to it at all. And I don't know anyone who went through this. I did not harbor any wishes to get married to any of the boys I played with in my youth. MY GOD, WE WERE JUST FRIENDS AND IT STAYED THAT WAY.
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Old 2012-03-30, 00:59   Link #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raduccio View Post
There was also another discussion about why too many shoujo manga relationships look alot like stockholm syndrome. Like in Beauty and the Beast.

I don't mind this type of show but I'm worried about the message it gives. In the show the guy is too often a bishie jerk with a mysterious (and painful) past that just needs a little love and understanding to get over his issues. Does that really apply to real life? Hardly.. some guys are just jerks. Others know this trope and play it to their advantage.

By the way, is a painful and mysterious past really a requirement for a guy?

In all fairness, the guys in shonen romances rarely go for the plain, nice girl that was crushing for them since childhood but that's because they're idiots.
Ah yes, I guess that explains why.

I agree that it sounds like it leaves a message for young girls to look for jerks instead of nice guys because nice guys are boring and unmanly. One woman said it best, "I want a MAN, not ANOTHER WOMAN!"

*beat* Well, all I could say to young girls is this: Look for a guy who acts like a father figure especially around you.

Spoiler for Bad Boys vs Nice Guys:


Spoiler for It depends on the girl's personality:
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Old 2012-03-30, 01:14   Link #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post

SV's picking jerks can be best explained with Stockholm Syndrome, and as one poster stated, it is a MASSIVE psychological gain for the women if she manages to get men to man up and change their ways.
GYAAAAA THIS ISN'T WHAT STOCKHOLM SYNDROME ISSSS

Quote:
Stockholm Syndrome is an apparently paradoxical psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and have positive feelings towards their captors, sometimes to the point of defending them. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness.
^
THAT'S Stockholm Syndrome.
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Old 2012-03-30, 01:21   Link #17
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Yep, we know, we know, right?
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Old 2012-03-30, 03:06   Link #18
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Most of the time because they are dumb.
Yes, we are.
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Old 2012-03-30, 03:12   Link #19
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Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
Yes, we are.
I doubt he was talking about girls in general. It's just that typical shoujo manga heroines are a little dumb (and clumsy and poor but that's not important)
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Old 2012-03-30, 03:22   Link #20
ahelo
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It's so sad that something that sounds so superficial is actually the real hard truth. Generally speaking, women prefer badasses over nice guys.
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