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View Poll Results: Fate/ Zero - Episode 17 Rating
Perfect 10 34 34.34%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 31 31.31%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 23 23.23%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 6.06%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 3.03%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 1.01%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.01%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 99. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-04-28, 20:44   Link #41
LunarMoon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeroz View Post
is it just me or is there tonnes of unresolved sexual tension between Kirie and Gilgamesh?
Kirei: But as to whether that man is a worthy master in the eyes of the King of Heroes...
Gilgamesh: He will suffice. He is, perhaps, a bit stiff, but he has great potential for growth. He may yet prove a fine source of entertainment for me...


Who says it's unresolved?
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Old 2012-04-28, 20:57   Link #42
serenade_beta
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Ah~ah, Tokki... Because of Sakura, I can't really say I feel sorry for him, but his death was sure lame. Considering he was betrayed by the person he just wrote a will for, maybe even worse death than Lancer's group, in a way.
And even as he dies, he just has to spin around in a circle, like he did in the first episode. Because of magic circles?
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Old 2012-04-28, 21:31   Link #43
rpgman1
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Nobody seems to like Kirei anyway except for Tokiomi, but he was backstabbed by the Azoth dagger for his own desires. Like Gilgamesh said, it is for his own amusement. That will left over to take care of Rin was intended anyway, but Tokiomi never expected his student to betray him in a sneaky way.
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Old 2012-04-28, 21:35   Link #44
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Ah Tokiomi nice to know you...you will probably be best known for walking in circles.

I still find Kirei kind of blah honestly but I liked his scenes with Gil because I can never complain about so much Seki Tomokazu delivered dialog.
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Old 2012-04-28, 21:42   Link #45
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I liked the episode fine. First time I actually cared what Kirei did.
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Old 2012-04-28, 22:19   Link #46
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The pacing in this episode felt rushed and the transitioning was jerky, but it was a good episode nevertheless. Finally Kirei breaks free from his shell and embraces his true nature, which is none other than reveling in the suffering of others. The scene during which he stabs Tokiomi was very well done in the sense that they managed to convey a tense, malicious aura, leading to the backstabbing.

Up until the second half of episode 17, Kirei was portrayed as lacking emotion, but did he have to be that emotionless upon realizing that his father had died? I'd prefer they show him to be sad (maybe teary) at first, before him realizing about his true feelings. (That he could've killed his father instead. )

I never liked Tokiomi, but I couldn't help sympathizing with him this episode, especially when thinking about Rin. And seriously, what was with Gilgamesh appearing and disappearing and reappearing around Kirei? He must be really bored.

On the other hand, Iri's growing weaker, and things are definitely not looking good for Kiritsugu. (Nor the remaining Masters.)

8/10 for episode 17. Looks like we're going to have some Kiritsugu-background-story for the next one.
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Old 2012-04-28, 22:39   Link #47
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I think it's extraordinarily disappointing that the most we got to see of Tokiomi's power was some crystal shaping and some fire swirl. The blonde haired magus guy at least had a great battle scene before he went down the tubes.

Last edited by Jerseykid; 2012-04-28 at 23:44.
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Old 2012-04-28, 22:56   Link #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zRyuu View Post
I feel bad for Tokiomi dying after he asked Kirei to take care of Rin.
Forget about Tokiomi I'm more worried about Rin. She's the one who now has her father's murderer as her guardian.

Can't say I feel bad for Tokiomi. After all being a mgae was more important to him than anything and dying as one in the war is hardly the worst result for him. In the end can't feel sympathy for someone who sent his kid off to a psycho like Zouken. The only thing I feel bad about is that Kariya isn't going to get to be the one to finish him off. Besides compared to what happened last episode Tokiomi got off easy. Sure long enough to realize he was betrayed, but hardly suffered since it was an efficient kill.

Overall nothing really surprising happened here. Gilgamesh becoming Kirei's servant had been pretty much broadcasted by the series for a while and the early parts of this episode were waving a death flag on Tokiomi. A bit surprised he died in this episode, but considering where we are in the series need to be having guys die off relatively quickly.

Irony that the attempts to remove the threat of Kirei helped to accelerate making him even more dangerous. Though his betrayal of Tokiomi was bound to happen eventually.

Too bad that right after a major Kiritsugu episode he goes completely invisible in this one. The bike he gave Saber had more presence here .
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Old 2012-04-28, 23:00   Link #49
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The one people should feel bad for is Kariya. Now how's he supposed to exact his revenge on Tokiomi? Not that he was doing a very good job of it to begin with, but still...
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Old 2012-04-28, 23:17   Link #50
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And thus, a villain is born. As I expected, after the Kiritsugu heavy episode 16, this one was almost entirely focused on the growth of his rival, who's finally come to terms with that which he's been repressing for so long and which Gilgamesh has been so intent on making him accept. Now Kirei has free reign to search for his answer and Archer is bound by a much more entertaining Master, making this the perfect alliance for the two… and the worst possible one for the remaining participants, whose hardships and suffering are only bound to get worse with such a duo of magnificent bastards running the show behind the scenes. Yet, as a spectator, the war is only bound to get more and more interesting now that the inmates will be running the asylum. Go on, Kirei, provide me with as much entertainment as you will Gilgamesh.

Now, not having read the novel, I can't say whether this was a particularly faithful adaptation of the corresponding chapters or not, but I felt Gil materializing all over the place was certainly a nice way to spice up his scene with Kirei and one which fit his character well enough. Their conversations in that room, back in episode 6 and 12, have always provided some of the best dialogue in the series, and naturally this time didn't disappoint either. I particularly enjoyed the ironically roundabout way they went about suggesting their alliance which had long since become but a foregone conclusion. Truly a match for one another, those two.

As for Tokiomi, though he did not possess a flattering role in this whole ordeal, I found him to be a solid enough character, whose parting was certainly particularly enjoyable to those familiar with FSN. And the timing of his long awaited death at the hands of his student is just about perfect, as we can now fully focus on the big dogs.

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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
I make this a very bad week for Kiritsugu. He's lost another safe, predictable and easy to manipulate opponent, and he's left with the two Masters and two Servants he'd probably most hate to face.
Actually, Kiritsugu stated in episode 12 that Kariya is an easy target and that he's only kept him alive this long because Berserker is a natural counter for the troublesome Archer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deikan View Post
Man, Kirei is such a douche, he killed the man who treated the dude not only as a student but also as part of his family.
…Who was also the man who forced him into this entire conflict for his own selfish desires in the first place, as well as a mentor who never even bothered to ask him what it was that Kirei himself desired in life. Such a swell dude, that Tokiomi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeroz View Post
is it just me or is there tonnes of unresolved sexual tension between Kirie and Gilgamesh?
That tends to happen between kindred souls.

I wonder if their relationship is supposed to mirror that of Gilgamesh and Enkidu's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
The one people should feel bad for is Kariya. Now how's he supposed to exact his revenge on Tokiomi? Not that he was doing a very good job of it to begin with, but still...
Honestly, I feel as if this might have been the best thing that could have happened to Kariya, given that his obsession and hatred for Tokiomi had been corrupting his mind and clouding his original purpose of saving Sakura... if Tokiomi hadn't been killed and essentially replaced by a merciless psychopath who's taken a liking to Kariya's misery and tragic circumstances. I foresee much worse times for Kariya now that he's lost his "boring" foil and has become a target of Kotomine motherfucking Kirei.
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Old 2012-04-28, 23:52   Link #51
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Okay. It was never addressed properly in the light novel as well, but I seriously doubt that Tokiomi actually knew what it meant to send Sakura to the Matou family. All he knew was that the Matou family was one of the big families that participated in the Holy Grail, and while their bloodline is declining (the old man did hid the fact that it was prone to be gone completely), they were still the best choice to raise Sakura as a Mage.

While he was a true Mage before anything, it does not mean he felt nothing for his kids. In fact he had cared deeply for his family; something shown when he talked to Rin for a long time before leaving, which was something he had never done before.

From the fight between Kariya and Tokiomi, Tokiomi had looked down and despised Kariya greatly for leaving the Mage's path. Tokiomi probably assumed that Kariya's horrible aging and stuff was because he chosen to take a super shortcut and cramp years of study into a few months. He didn't actually think it was the normal process a mage go through in the Matou family - ever since that creepy old man at least - and of course he could never know how does the Matou train themselves and uses these 'bugs'. Their magic is already comparable to what you would call 'Gedou' and is probably as controversial as Caster and Ryu, it's just that Mages don't interfere with each other unless they involve normal people in their magic.
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Old 2012-04-29, 00:10   Link #52
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Okay. It was never addressed properly in the light novel as well, but I seriously doubt that Tokiomi actually knew what it meant to send Sakura to the Matou family. All he knew was that the Matou family was one of the big families that participated in the Holy Grail, and while their bloodline is declining (the old man did hid the fact that it was prone to be gone completely), they were still the best choice to raise Sakura as a Mage.
As an anime-only watcher that was also the impression I got from a few episodes back, that he knew both of his girls needed to be trained and, since only one could get the family name, he sent the other to a place where he expected she would have a good chance at inheriting a title as well (plus, he's shown to be a bit out of touch with his family so he might not have even realized there was no communication after Sakura left, given that it's shown that he does care for Rin I'd imagine he would've been not happy to hear about what was happening to Sakura).
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Old 2012-04-29, 01:25   Link #53
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As an anime-only watcher who slowly takes on the light novels, but also as a long-time reader of fantasy, I can't help but think that the reason Tokiomi never knew about Sakura's horrible treatment was that magi lineages are very secretive about the inner workings of their trade. Like how some governmental agencies must not spread information about how they do some things. To ignore that rule might spell doom on the one spreading the info.
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Old 2012-04-29, 01:34   Link #54
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In short, Tokiomi did hope for the best for Sakura; he merely made the wrong choice. He also failed in dealing with Kirei properly (though I doubt all the mother's love in the world can move someone as... special as Kirei).

IMO, Tokiomi's intentions are genuine, which is why I felt a bit sad for his death. :/
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Old 2012-04-29, 02:26   Link #55
jeroz
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I find it pretty funny that the both stalkers for Kiritsugu and Saber teamed up.
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Old 2012-04-29, 02:39   Link #56
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Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
Kirei: But as to whether that man is a worthy master in the eyes of the King of Heroes...
Gilgamesh: He will suffice. He is, perhaps, a bit stiff, but he has great potential for growth. He may yet prove a fine source of entertainment for me...


Who says it's unresolved?
The scene where they establish their pact in the novel is pretty suggestive. It doesn't help that it jumps from them to other characters.
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Old 2012-04-29, 02:46   Link #57
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I think Irisviel sensed the command spells of kirei and if only she told tokiomi about this, then maybe he wont let his guard down....
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Old 2012-04-29, 02:52   Link #58
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As for Rider and Waver, love those guys but they've had "side character" flags from the beginning so I don't see them as a major factor. Wouldn't be surprised if they're the next to go out.
Really? I actually had the impression early on that Waver was supposed to be the main character. They've certainly lost focus as the story's gone on, though.
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Old 2012-04-29, 03:21   Link #59
Sheba
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Really? I actually had the impression early on that Waver was supposed to be the main character. They've certainly lost focus as the story's gone on, though.
Not really, this is really Kirei's, first, and Emiya's story. Especially, the story of someone, appearing at first as aimless, like Kirei eventually embracing his inner darkness.
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Old 2012-04-29, 03:29   Link #60
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Tokiomi was literally 'back-stabbed' here, even after the praises and compliments and trust given to Kirei by him. But it seems the plot really will start to spice up after this new partnership.
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