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Old 2012-05-04, 05:01   Link #61
Marcus H.
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One does not simply enter a series discussion... and entering a series discussion just to create a habit of flaming the most recent episode is stupid. It's like those people "dropping Guilty Crown every week" on /a/.

Anyway, I don't know what is the point of this thread. Things like this happen, and haters often drop like leaves halfway through the episode. It's a natural process that beats whatever policy the mods would create to control said attitude of the users, critic and fanboy alike. In fact, moderating this aspect of a series' discussion would be counter-productive; most of us might end up lurking instead of joining a discussion.

I admit, I might target certain series when I see that said series is really flawed (my recent "targets" were Symphogear and AKB0048), but I keep my posts as more gentle as possible. I also abandon the thread when I think I have spoke my mind. There's nothing wrong with speaking one's mind — the problem lies with facing the flak that comes after it.
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Old 2012-05-04, 05:54   Link #62
Liddo-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
Part of the reason is that we these fandoms around here are rather small and the shows themselves don't really attract that sort of attitude in the first place (I've been frequenting these threads since the star, and I got the impression that Idolm@ster and Precure fans are actually rather nice )
Sorry for the late reply, was busy with a lot of things. The past few months, my stay here on AS is mostly only on the threads I've mentioned (Smile P. and IM@S), so I have little to no idea of what's happening in other anime threads / sub-forums these days.

Quote:
In much larger threads, or in very popular sub forums, it's really hard to ignore it.
People tend to defend their opinions / ideas when posting on forums, rather than change their minds from the opinions of others. Which could lead to heated debates espescially when the topic is something like "favorite anime". When someone says something negative about my favorite anime, I keep in mind that we're not yet in the age where every anime is a universally acclaimed masterpiece accepted by everyone - there would always be critics. I tend to leave critics alone, unless of course they've quoted something in one of my posts. Casual (no personal attack) debates makes discussions more interesting and the threads more active.

Anyway, I've stayed years on this forum and haven't seen a thread turn into something like this one yet (sample of heated debate on another anime forum). Animesuki mods are doing a good job keeping things in check.

Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2012-05-04 at 07:45. Reason: spelling
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Old 2012-05-04, 06:29   Link #63
Dhomochevsky
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The thing is, people used to internet discussions (including the 4chan crowd) can handle a bit of tension.
In my experience, it is usually the newer members, who quickly get defensive when someone is disagreeing with them and then try to bite back.

This might be a problem for them, but they too will get used to having to put up with different opinions eventually.
Moderators should not interfere at that level. That would lead to a stifling environment for everybody else. If I had to make every one of my posts cute and fluffy, just so it does not offend anyone, because that might call down the wrath of moderators... well I'd be long gone.

I had some perfectly fine (in my opinion) and very interesting discussions stopped by moderators, but those were exceptions. I hope the forum will never go too far in that direction.
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Old 2012-05-04, 07:29   Link #64
Tempester
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j0x View Post
well imho /a/ or 4chan in general is fine like that since its all Anonymous, the identity is not expose since all of the people posting are just same identity called Anonymous

its quite different on forums like AnimeSuki where people's identity are expose (not fully but more expose) you can identify a forum poster by his/her avatar (display pic) or forum name and even forum post counts and reps are expose to help you identify or have their own uniqueness, so what im saying here is that identity exposure is the reason for moderation, although im not really supporting excessive moderation though
I may have a fancy avatar and a unique username, but I'm still anonymous as a human being, and I make an effort to keep it that way. If my account brings about so much hate to the point that nobody takes it seriously anymore, all I'd have to do is abandon it. Big whoop. At least I don't have my real face and name posted on the internet and mocked every time someone makes a thread about Nakano Azusa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddo-kun View Post
Anyway, I've stayed years on this forum and haven't seen a thread turn into something like this one yet (sample of heated debate on another anime forum). Animesuki mods are doing a good job keeping things in check.
Dear lord, the posts those white knights type fry my brain. It's almost like I'm reading TVTropes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
The thing is, people used to internet discussions (including the 4chan crowd) can handle a bit of tension.
In my experience, it is usually the newer members, who quickly get defensive when someone is disagreeing with them and then try to bite back.

This might be a problem for them, but they too will get used to having to put up with different opinions eventually.
Precisely. After you see several people outright calling your favorite anime "cancerous moeshit for faggots that is killing the industry", the most critical posts on Animesuki are nothing.
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Old 2012-05-04, 08:18   Link #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddo-kun View Post
Anyway, I've stayed years on this forum and haven't seen a thread turn into something like this one yet (sample of heated debate on another anime forum). Animesuki mods are doing a good job keeping things in check.
Oh damn, that was horrible. Never seen anything like that here, and thankfully so.
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Old 2012-05-04, 08:31   Link #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
My only advice to those who feel targeted would be the same as what I've been told by a colleague who writes op-eds for a local paper: Grow thicker skin.
It's not a question of being offended by a strongly-worded counterargument. It's about the way discussion is framed when you get a lot of posts like "What's with all the hate?" and "If you don't like the show, then don't watch it". These sorts of posts are basically attempts to shut down anything that veers significantly away from all-praise all-the-time. When they go unchallenged/uncorrected, they can sort of set parameters for acceptable discussion.


Prior to being an anime fan, I was a comic book fan and pro wrestling fan. In online discussion forums within those fandoms, I would often read (and participate in) vibrant back-and-forth discussion over the strengths and weaknesses of the latest comic books or the latest pro wrestling TV shows. There was a general understanding that some people would love each comic/show, and some people would dislike it, and discussions would consistently include both perspectives (you'd get the odd comic that was roundly praised or roundly hated, but it was the exception, not the rule).

People loved to pick apart the latest Batman comic or Monday Night Raw, and most people would basically discuss its perceived pros and cons. Nobody would seriously argue "What's with all the hate?" because a couple people would list a couple perceived cons.

Honestly, before I became an anime fan, this "all-praise, all-the-time" desire was entirely alien to me. Even the most hardcore comic book fan or pro wrestling fan that I knew wasn't like that. They enjoyed expressing, often in detail, what they liked and what they didn't like about the most recent comic book/pro wrestling show. This was typical, normal, expected. And it was conducive to great discussion as people thoroughly discussed everything they read and watched.


I'm not sure what makes the anime fandom different here. I'm not sure why we can't discuss the latest Hyouka or Nisemonogatari or Fate/Zero episode like pro wrestling fans discuss the latest Monday Night Raw airing. This idea of "If you're a fan of something, the only things you'll say about it will be complimentary" is honestly a bit bizarre to me.
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Old 2012-05-04, 08:46   Link #67
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I'm not sure what makes the anime fandom different here. I'm not sure why we can't discuss the latest Hyouka or Nisemonogatari or Fate/Zero episode like pro wrestling fans discuss the latest Monday Night Raw airing. This idea of "If you're a fan of something, the only things you'll say about it will be complimentary" is honestly a bit bizarre to me.
Because you can't really compare anime with comic books (well maybe for new comicbook series but you can't really compare a new anime with a comic book in which the settings and characters have been established and slightly altered for decades. But even for newer comic book series, it will be constantly compared to previous works) or wrestling (which is a completely different medium).
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Old 2012-05-04, 08:48   Link #68
Dr. Casey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Detective-san View Post
Oh damn, that was horrible. Never seen anything like that here, and thankfully so.
Ugh, yeah. There's some opinions that honestly don't deserve any respect, and the controlling, irrational, pro-thought crime sentiments expressed there are definitely amongst them.
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Old 2012-05-04, 08:50   Link #69
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
This idea of "If you're a fan of something, the only things you'll say about it will be complimentary" is honestly a bit bizarre to me.
I've been reading up on this topic, so now is a good time to jump in. Let me ask you a question Triple R. You and I have had many discussions over the years, so what sets our discussions apart from others?
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Old 2012-05-04, 09:14   Link #70
TinyRedLeaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
In a nutshell - police both the flamer and the 'bubble boy.' That's all I ask for. People deserve a place to be honest and not feel like the Thought Police will swoop down on them the moment they open up.
You do see the inherent contradiction in what you are asking for, don't you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
Simply hitting the ignore button is almost a mirror effect of what fanatics are doing - blocking out any irritant that make's one life uncomfortable. It doesn't make the problem go away - it amounts to living in a glasshouse and allows the problem to continue.
As many people have already noted, how would you make the problem "go away", short of setting up a fully-armed corps of Thought Police?

In some ways, your request reminds me of the ongoing rage between mainstream media and supporters of "new media". The latter group is only too happy to celebrate the anarchy of new media, relishing in the liberties of anonymity. Those few among them daring enough to voice their discomfort with the often puerile and banal "discussion" brought up in such media are immediately shouted down for being closet supporters of the Big Bad Censor.

Meanwhile, professional journalists continue to do their jobs as best as they can — checking their facts, keeping a close watch on their use of language, and carefully exercising editorial judgment, ever conscious of their role as a "gatekeeper" of information. And for all that, they get accused of being lapdogs of the EstablishmentTM.

And now, you come around demanding more moderation, more gatekeeping, broader oversight over online behaviour, and so on. Basically, you want more watchmen. The irony, when compared against the larger context I illustrated above, is simply delicious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Honestly, before I became an anime fan, this "all-praise, all-the-time" desire was entirely alien to me. Even the most hardcore comic book fan or pro wrestling fan that I knew wasn't like that. They enjoyed expressing, often in detail, what they liked and what they didn't like about the most recent comic book/pro wrestling show. This was typical, normal, expected. And it was conducive to great discussion as people thoroughly discussed everything they read and watched.

I'm not sure what makes the anime fandom different here. I'm not sure why we can't discuss the latest Hyouka or Nisemonogatari or Fate/Zero episode like pro wrestling fans discuss the latest Monday Night Raw airing. This idea of "If you're a fan of something, the only things you'll say about it will be complimentary" is honestly a bit bizarre to me.
I'm not going to score any brownie points for this, but I'd just politely remind you to consider the demographics of this forum, and also the target audience of most anime. It's not hard to put two and two together to see why such behaviour is more prevalent here than in those other forums you frequent.

That is one of the reasons I realised some time ago that I ought to make public my actual age. It occurred to me that some people may be repping me while thinking that I'm some high-school or college kid who sounded unusually mature. The possibility of giving a false impression bugged me enough to finally decide to reveal more about my real identity and, over time, I've given away more and more of my private information.

In short, there came a time when it just felt wrong for me to hide behind total anonymity.

It worked for me. Simply because I expect people who are 30 and above to behave a certain way. I don't feel that is too much to ask for, simply because that is precisely what I'd expect of such people in real life. It also puts pressure on me to behave, and I'm always conscious of the need to set an example.

If you ask me, that's the real way to solve this "problem". Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
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Old 2012-05-04, 10:09   Link #71
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I've been reading up on this topic, so now is a good time to jump in. Let me ask you a question Triple R. You and I have had many discussions over the years, so what sets our discussions apart from others?
Do you mean what sets our discussions apart from ones I've had within other non-anime fandoms, or do you mean what sets our discussions apart from ones I've had with other anime fans? Basically, I want to be clear on the context of your question here.


As for your post, TRL, I'm going to think about it a bit before I get back to you on it. The point you made about demographics is an interesting one, worthy of at least some reflection. Perhaps that does account for some things - It's true that there's probably a lot more people 30 and over on the comic book forums I used to frequent.

Though it's somewhat ironic given their origins, comic books are increasingly aimed at adult demographics. The 14 year old comic book fan is probably now more rare than the 30 year old one.
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Old 2012-05-04, 10:13   Link #72
Dr. Casey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
I'm not going to score any brownie points for this, but I'd just politely remind you to consider the demographics of this forum, and also the target audience of most anime. It's not hard to put two and two together to see why such behaviour is more prevalent here than in those other forums you frequent.

That is one of the reasons I realised some time ago that I ought to make public my actual age. It occurred to me that some people may be repping me while thinking that I'm some high-school or college kid who sounded unusually mature.
So you think people in their mid-20s like me are just kids? Aww I feel so kawaii now
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Old 2012-05-04, 13:05   Link #73
SaintessHeart
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Well it kind of goes back to the same thing in real life; people get frustrated over something they couldn't change. My guess is that most of us here are lonely people who are looking for someone to agree with us as we think differently from the mass of bread and circuses, thus we have that negative feeling when someone posted something that does not sit well with any of us.

After being around for close to half a decade, all the way from the end of high school, I had offended quite a few people on this forum initially and still manage to turn them into good friends (I still remember Vexx who took offense at my perception of "old people" ). There are always people in life who are frank as sausages and speak their mind, while there are sensitive ones who are always thinking of others' feelings as they speak. Why get yourself unhappy because something written does not suit your taste? I prescribe a treatment that will guarantee to make you feel better :

1. Read at a post you deem offensive.
2. Gather all your hatred into your fist
3. Punch the screen while shouting "HADOKEN" or "KAME-KAME HAAAAAA!". "ZETTAIIII.......RY-OU-I-KI!!!" works too.
4. Wince at the pain then realise that it is not worth it to ruin a potentially fine day, and move on.

When someone else is hating too, don't take their side and be an anti-cyclone. It is only a post; if nobody else is posting something to shift attention away from the topic, be the one.

Within the forum demographic, there are always regulars who each have their own style and trait of posting. Several I have whom I have identified are :

Seijisensei - grandpa
Vexx - secret agent dad
Mangatron - the local god of perverts
Eroking - the robot pervert
TinyRedLeaf - the grammar nazi
Ascaloth - Socrates-reborn
Leoxiao - the Russian with a taste for older women
Archon Wing - the prosecutor of flippant thinking, kuudere buddy of Reckoner *
Reckoner - the aggressive ace attorney, buddy of Archon Wing*
Kyuu - the fox of cloud 9*
synthanasic - the lesbian
Sumeragi - the big-sis monster
Paranoid Android - a pervasive, mistrusting walking dustcan (I always have an urge to kick it, but I am afraid it will bite my leg off)
MrTerrorist - the spokesperson for the pro-yaoi terror organisation FFLF (Fujo Fudan Liberation Front)
Xellos ^_^ - the lover of anything soft and squishy
Meotwister - the doctor who plans to get his license so he can treat lolis the way he wants
Roger Rambo - a heretic traitor of the God Emperor who worshipped the Idolmaster girls instead of the Emperor of Mankind

....and the list goes on. Their style is a reflection of themselves, be more accepting because in the freedom of speech, everyone gets to post the way they want to. Et tu.

* - Of course, I also realised that the names I have marked, alongside Demongod86, are regulars for the game of SC2, and are also frequently complained against for their "offensive posting". Is there a plot against SC2 players, or is this a small part of a greater conspiracy regarding the ongoing war between Japanese and Korean pop culture, where these people are marginalised just because they enjoy SC2?

All of us here had alot more in common than we realise. So why the hate when we can find a similar stand to take?
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Old 2012-05-04, 14:19   Link #74
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Do you mean what sets our discussions apart from ones I've had within other non-anime fandoms, or do you mean what sets our discussions apart from ones I've had with other anime fans? Basically, I want to be clear on the context of your question here.
Well what I'm getting at (outside of curiosity), is that you can generally divide discussion up like this:

Interest - Strong, Neutral, Weak
Content - Praise, Neutral, Criticism
Tone - Aggressive, Neutral, Defensive

This is of course not nuanced, but only to provide a framework for what most discussion is like. You can already see the nuance in it though, if you apply it to posting habits.

There are some posters who feel more like "extras", providing the background talking points others pick up on. There are some posters who put on their Glasses of Nerdicon and rip apart every detail, and others who are just excited because, well, boobs. There are posters who just want to get a rise out of people, posters who praise anything no matter how bad it is, posters who hate everything no matter how good it is, people who only hate things when they're popular, and people who only like things that are popular.

So you're getting the point here, that people are as varied as the Universe will let them be (except stupid, the Universe has ensured that remains a constant *shakes fist* damn you Universe!!!!). So what do you do? You look at the audience and decide how to frame your thoughts around that. If you go into a Queen's Blade thread and attempt to have a serious discussion like it was a Game of Thrones, it's probably not going to get far and you're likely to see pushback. Is that their fault for not recognizing the intellectual qualities of Queen's Blade (it's there, under the left boob), or yours for not recognizing that even if they do, they don't really care.

And while I'm tossing around "you", it's not aimed at you specifically. That Queen's Blade person was me in the Highschool of the Dead thread. I thought it would be fun to discuss the more...."human naturey" stuff, but most people in the thread wanted to discuss breast physics. So, I stopped posting and found something else to do. I still finished the series; it wasn't like what other people thought was going to influence how I felt about something to such a degree I wouldn't at least give it a chance and enjoy it for what it was. Turns out, not bad. You get exactly what it offers and nothing more. Still, matrix boobs. O_O What has been seen......

Given the nature of most anime that comes out, the crowd that wants to discuss Guilty Crown and Aquarion is larger and more vocal than the crowd that wants to discuss Natsume Yuujinchou and Chihayafuru. Is that a bad thing? Not really, it's just difference in interests, for various reasons, and with that, different opinions and attitudes, and even difference in reception toward those opinions and attitudes.

All of this brings me full circle back to my full point, and I share RF's point about debate club, but ultimately the difference between how people discuss is this:

YouTube
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Or as the saying goes, you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Queue xkcd in 5...4.....3.....2....



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Old 2012-05-04, 15:57   Link #75
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Oh god you people make me sound like a goddamned medical pedophile.
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Old 2012-05-04, 16:43   Link #76
Triple_R
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Solace, I think that we might be talking about different things here.

I don't think that Last Sinner is complaining about which shows get the most attention, or about how ecchi fanservice-driven shows have a lot of people talking about, well, the ecchi. I know that this isn't what I'm focusing on, at least.

What I'm talking about are overly defensive fans, who pull cards like "What's with all the hate?" and "If you don't like the show, then don't watch it" far too often.

These may in fact be reasonable cards to play under certain circumstances (Poster A harshly bashes Show B week after week after week for 5 weeks straight, truly begging the question of why he or she doesn't just drop it).

But these cards really shouldn't be used early on in a show's airing, and I see that far too often.


It's also not a question of having or not having a debate forum, per se. If debate arises, fine. If it doesn't arise because there happens to be a lot of actual agreement, then so be it.

It's just that people should feel free to voice their honest opinions on the anime shows that they watch on the series threads and subforums dedicated to those shows. By the same token, people should expect to run into some contrary opinions to their own, particularly on a message board of this size. So playing cards like "What's with all the hate?" or "If you don't like the show, then don't watch it" should be officially frowned upon, imo, except in very extenuating circumstances (primarily the one I referred to of someone bashing a show week after week after week for several weeks straight).

It's not like critical posts on this board tend to be all that flamey. As others on this thread have pointed out, it's pretty mild compared to what you see on some other anime message forums. The level of critique that, say, Hyouka received is hardly something worthy of "What's with all the hate?", given that this anime is brand new.


Basically, all I think some of us are asking for here is that the next time somebody plays the "What's with all the hate?" card or the "If you don't like it, don't watch it" card, that the moderators step in to override the implications of those statements (barring, again, very extenuating circumstances). That's it.

That certainly doesn't constitute Thought Policing, in my opinion, to go back to what TRL wrote earlier on this thread.
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Old 2012-05-04, 17:11   Link #77
Flower
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Hrm ... have just read through the thread: yes - such behavior goes on in the forums. It goes on in many places throughout the internet and in RL as well - although it could be argued that the anonymity of the internet interface allows for more temptation to nastiness.

On a personal level I also agree with SeijiSensei (and other's embellishments and clarifications thereon) that continued complaining and nasty comments on a series can get wearying. I feel that if you do not like a series there is nothing wrong with saying so for a while, but repeated nagging and complaining can get old quick. It's like that IRL too ... people just get tired of a person who does nothing but complain and complain about things. That people in here should not like such behavior should not be a surprised either - imo this has very little to do with freedom of speech or accusing others that they should develop "thicker skin" either.

All that aside, the main question is: "Okay we have [re]identified the problem - now what are the mods supposed to DO about it in a practical sense?" I don't feel they are especially in "thought police mode" or in "free for all" mode - and I think most everyone would agree (although some may differ as to which aspects are more heavily leaned towards by which mods). When the mods hear such feedback their default setting is to look at things on a site-wide level when implicating changes.

Methinks perhaps in terms of a real "what can one do about it now" type of solution is to get into the habit of talking to the mods and express your concerns to them on a case by case basis. They listen, and are generally quite willing to help (at least they have in my case). Sometimes they will feel that your concerns are not applicable in a particular situation - well, that's how it goes IRL as well. You suggest something to someone with more authority than you and they say (for whatever reason) they disagree with you - that's normal and to be expected and how life is.
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Old 2012-05-04, 17:44   Link #78
Dr. Casey
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Hm... reading this thread makes me paranoid that I'm acting like a member of the Thought Police if I ever call out people on their complaints being unreasonable. >_> I think that Tempester's assessment of Akito's criticisms not coming across as annoying because he's calm and well-reasoned are right on the mark. That's honestly something that a lot of 'negative' opinions on here lack; posts showing dislike for a show are often buried under so much vitriol that it shouldn't come across as any surprise that they draw bad reactions sometimes. I have no problem with viewpoints that differ from my own that are well-reasoned and thoughtful, and actually think they're quite interesting to read... but most expressions of dissatisfaction here come more in the form of shitposting or just being scathing without posting much of substance. Hell, this has been going on since at least 2007, just check out the Shakugan no Shana II threads. "HAS ANYONE FUCKING DIED YET? GOD DAMN." "This harem shit is so stupid and boring! Hey J.C. Staff, there's this little something called PLOT, every heard of it?" Yeah that's real intelligent discourse right there, nothing even remotely annoying at all with having that repeated every other post, just like I'm sure that Leonardo da Vinci wouldn't be bothered if a critic puked on the Mona Lisa and told him "That's what I think of your painting, asshole, lol"

Of course, people do have the right to say whatever they want in whichever style of tone they want, and I don't think that people with dissenting opinions should be ganged up on to the degree which they sometimes are. I don't think that discussions should be moderated much at all, really, and that people should be able to say whatever they want however they want, whether positive or negative (Save for instances where something is beaten into the ground so much that it clogs up the thread and prevents any other discussion from being entertained very long, ie Gundam Age and the 'kiddy artwork' crap). Though by that token, I don't think there's anything wrong with someone going "Your opinion's stupid, unfair, and irrational" if the other poster's being stupid, unfair, and irrational.
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Old 2012-05-04, 19:30   Link #79
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I'm pretty dumb, so I usually assume that anyone who disagrees with me must be right... -______-
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Old 2012-05-04, 20:45   Link #80
Last Sinner
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Summoner's Rift
Age: 33
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Clearly the point has been lost beyond salvaging and people are taking mortal offense at the drop of a pin - illustrating exactly what has sickened me in recent discussions.

If, as relentlessflame says, open discussion is not the purpose of AS, then so be it.

Tiny - stop putting words into my mouth. I am a person who strongly advocates for the individual and for freedom of speech IRL. I am not a state-oriented person and never will be. Using age or 'they watch this show' to instantly label someone as 'they probably won't behave' - doesn't that contradict the freedom to be oneself that you advocate? Clearly, you and I are never going to get along, so let's just part ways here, permanently.

All I asked for was that people would have respect for someone that says '8/10. I like this show! But here's a couple of things I'm not so keen about in this show.' It's that bit and the reactions that come with it that are disgusting me. If the hardcore '10, anyone who doesn't think this show is perfect can die in a fire' fans are simply going to be allowed to tell the fans who have a reasonable like for the show that they have no right to be a fan or participate in discussion, I don't consider that a healthy community. THAT has been the issue people have brought up to me privately.

But clearly we're going in circles now and people are blowing this out of proportion.

So I think it's best a moderator lock this thread. Solace, Skyfall, relentless - whoever is on, just lock this.
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