AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-03-20, 15:24   Link #1061
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Do you remember that they accused Hanemura and doubted him when he first appeared?

I don't know why you would think humans are simple enough to believe everything without proof.
1- She wouldn't have to convince them of much had already arrived at the conclusion that the Tree was bad news without ever hearing of her. And once Evangeline had been given the same facts, she eventually arrived at a conclusion that was very close to Aika's story.
2- It doesn't matter. The Kusaribe magic is unusable near the tree, the government weapons just feed it (not that they have the government's cooperation now), and Aika's strong enough to just punch through whatever blockade the world powers put in her way. The Kusaribe and Evangeline's friends may be useful for the secondary objective of killing the tree without human bloodshed, but that's about it.

That's why I said the real choice was between Hanemura and Aika. Whatever allies they each would have don't count.

Quote:
You're also not giving Hakaze enough credit, considering she is the one who awakened all the Exodus Tree fruits so the Mage of Exodus can use his/her full power.
She helped train Hanemura. Did Aika look like she needed that sort of training? As for the fruits - it's just the natural process of both Trees' awakening. She isn't precisely necessary.

Quote:
Do you honestly think this is a solo effort after everything the characters have experienced?
They seem to think so. It's the Mage of Exodus' job to kill the Tree. All the others can do is help get him there.

Quote:
I don't think Aika would like having Mahiro or Yoshino's children die either.
Then the best thing she can do is oversee the Tree of Genesis' destruction herself. Failing that, train her successor, if she can. Killing herself and leaving it to Hanemura is one of the worst options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bern-san View Post
It's tough being compared to Aika but at least he's capable of destroying the Tree of Genesis
He's capable of destroying defenseless saplings.

Quote:
Hakaze has logic on her favor so she would survive her stay in the island and would find a way of returning.
She didn't in the original timeline. Not until Yoshino pointed one out to her. And even she does, so what? (But really, the paradox thing... if Aika doesn't kill herself, what would happen? Aika had to travel in time twice to meet her.)

Quote:
We don't really know how things could play with Hakaze as a threat although Aika could win against her in a fight. Hakaze was a very proud person and only the tragedies and love changed her.


But she did see it as a downside, after all she said that she does it for Yoshino and Mahiro so there was a risk of the world ending during their generation.
There's plenty of danger without her around. After all, they now have to face the Tree of Genesis without her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thundrakkon View Post
I thought the main reason Aika did what she did was in order to secure Yoshino's and Mahiro's survival. If she survived, there is no guarantee of their survival, since the Tree of Genesis might find a way to kill them. At least with the current path, they have survived.
So far. Let's say you're on a plane with your loved ones. The plane is on fire. So you push them out as fast as you can, without even trying to find parachutes for them. Can you really say you've saved their lives?

Quote:
I thought that was the underlying, most important reason for her.
Yeah. But as I said, short-sighted.
Anh_Minh is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-21, 07:34   Link #1062
eiyuu99
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Quote:
So far. Let's say you're on a plane with your loved ones. The plane is on fire. So you push them out as fast as you can, without even trying to find parachutes for them. Can you really say you've saved their lives?
If someone from the future told you that because you pushed them out as fast as you can, they survived. This person also knows your secrets most people are unware of.

Now, on the burning plane, will you push them?

1. Yes
2. No

Well, on the other hand, not boarding the plane in the first place will be a better alternative.
eiyuu99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-21, 09:29   Link #1063
Bern-san
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Then the best thing she can do is oversee the Tree of Genesis' destruction herself. Failing that, train her successor, if she can. Killing herself and leaving it to Hanemura is one of the worst options.
Why is leaving it to Hanemura one of the worst options?

Quote:
He's capable of destroying defenseless saplings.
But if Aika wasn't confident that Hanemura would be capable of destroying the core then I'm sure she would reconsider killing herself but that wasn't the case. The same with Mahiro and the rest of the group, Hanemura is the key for the success of the plan so if he wasn't prepared then they would make him train more before considering the destruction of the Tree.


Quote:
She didn't in the original timeline. Not until Yoshino pointed one out to her. And even she does, so what? (But really, the paradox thing... if Aika doesn't kill herself, what would happen? Aika had to travel in time twice to meet her.)
In this point I can't really argue about Hakaze's destiny because I don't like to think too much about time travel.

Quote:
There's plenty of danger without her around. After all, they now have to face the Tree of Genesis without her.
Things would definitely be easier with her but there would always be danger. Currently with the minds of Evangeline, Yoshino, Mahiro and Samon working together and Hakaze's support the only problem could be Hanemura being overpowered, but like I said before if they weren't sure that Hanemura is capable enough of dealing with it then they should be working on that aspect.


Quote:
Yeah. But as I said, short-sighted.
I won't deny that, after all she made her decision very quickly. She didn't value enough her life to try and think other options. Right now things still could be wrong but there's reasons to be positive that the outcome is going to be favorable (Mahiro and Yoshino have to read Aika's message.
__________________
Bern-san is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-21, 11:11   Link #1064
Cosmic Eagle
卍曼荼羅・無量大数
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: 大欲界天狗道
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeSkip View Post
That's not correct. At the time Hakaze went back to tell Aika about the future, the tree of Genesis had not revealed its core. Aika couldn't have known about this from Hakaze.
This does not mean that the Core's appearance did not stem from Hakaze's experiences in the past.

That Aika knew the Core would appear is just as likely the product of deduction based on Hakaze meeting her and vowing to destroy the Genesis Tree (which is possible only because Aika died).

Also, if Hakaze completely halted Samon's reawakening of the Zetsuen Tree, Aika would not be at full power to face the Genesis Core, even if she still lived.

Hakaze reconsidered only because of Yoshino and Mahiro and the uncertainty over Aika's death.

Also, recall the role of Genesis Tree as a test for humanity, with the central role played by the Kusaribe. Given this, it won't be surprising that the Core's appearance is a reaction to the Princess's will to destroy the Genesis Tree.

TL;DR, Zetsuen Tree and Mage alone may be the sword that slays the Genesis Tree but Hakaze turning against it is a crucial factor as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post


If the core doesn't appear then the whole Tree becomes next generation's problem. I don't see a downside, from her POV.
Or not....

Aika said that in a decade, civilization will be destroyed by the Genesis Tree. She later advises that once the Core appears, consider that the reset will take place in a few years.

The two isn't necessarily mutually exclusive....it could be simply that the Core's appearance hastens the process.

Either way, Aika being Aika, she would never gamble Mahiro and Yoshino on such a risk. At least, not on a path where they cannot do anything about it.

Quote:
As for the fruits - it's just the natural process of both Trees' awakening. She isn't precisely necessary
The Zetsuen Tree's awakening is due to the role of the Kusaribe and her to a large extent.
__________________

Last edited by Cosmic Eagle; 2013-03-21 at 11:29.
Cosmic Eagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-21, 14:17   Link #1065
Shadow5YA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
1- She wouldn't have to convince them of much had already arrived at the conclusion that the Tree was bad news without ever hearing of her. And once Evangeline had been given the same facts, she eventually arrived at a conclusion that was very close to Aika's story.
2- It doesn't matter. The Kusaribe magic is unusable near the tree, the government weapons just feed it (not that they have the government's cooperation now), and Aika's strong enough to just punch through whatever blockade the world powers put in her way. The Kusaribe and Evangeline's friends may be useful for the secondary objective of killing the tree without human bloodshed, but that's about it.

That's why I said the real choice was between Hanemura and Aika. Whatever allies they each would have don't count.
1 - Hanemura was accused of being a murderer after Samon's group already decided to oppose the Genesis tree. Evangeline would not have been given the same facts if Aika went directly to the Kusaribe clan. The only reason why Evangeline could arrive at the same conclusion is because Yoshino involved her and the rest of the military in his plot to have a countermeasure against both Mahiro and Samon.
2- Without spoiling too much, I'll say just this: both Hakaze and Samon participated in the final battle against the military with their magic in the manga. As for how... I'll leave it to you to read the manga and find out.

The whole "Kusaribe magic being unusable" thing is just an anime original tweak to bring Mahiro and Yoshino into the spotlight.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
She helped train Hanemura. Did Aika look like she needed that sort of training? As for the fruits - it's just the natural process of both Trees' awakening. She isn't precisely necessary.


They seem to think so. It's the Mage of Exodus' job to kill the Tree. All the others can do is help get him there.
What evidence do you have for any of this? If the Tree of Exodus can awaken on its own, why would Samon need to awaken the fruits? On top of that, did you not see the Tree of Genesis wrap around and Tree of Exodus and seal its power?

And helping him get to the tree isn't important? What? So if I play through The Legend of Zelda and the Master Sword is the only weapon that can kill the final boss, does that mean every other tool from the Bow, Bombs, Hookshot, and potions are completely useless for the entire game? That's a huge fallacy.

Why are you making all of these baseless assumptions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Then the best thing she can do is oversee the Tree of Genesis' destruction herself. Failing that, train her successor, if she can. Killing herself and leaving it to Hanemura is one of the worst options.
Again, why are you making it sound like it's a solo effort? Aika is leaving it to everyone to destroy the Tree of Genesis. It's not just Hanemura. The letters she wrote were addressed to Hakaze, Yoshino, and Mahiro.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
She didn't in the original timeline. Not until Yoshino pointed one out to her. And even she does, so what? (But really, the paradox thing... if Aika doesn't kill herself, what would happen? Aika had to travel in time twice to meet her.)


There's plenty of danger without her around. After all, they now have to face the Tree of Genesis without her.[/QUOTE]

This is false. Aika's power comes from the Tree of Exodus. The Tree of Exodus is still alive and now fully awakened thanks to Hakaze. Hanemura has the exact same powers as Aika.

If he needs knowledge of how the world works or battle experience, everyone has been giving him that knowledge. At this point, everyone knows as much as Aika does right now.

The only real loss comes from Yoshino and Mahiro never being able to see the girl who knew them so well ever again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
So far. Let's say you're on a plane with your loved ones. The plane is on fire. So you push them out as fast as you can, without even trying to find parachutes for them. Can you really say you've saved their lives?


Yeah. But as I said, short-sighted.
False analogy.

Let's say you're on in a tall building with your loved ones, and the building catches on fire. You are told that someone will be at the bottom with a safety net to rescue them if they jump. Would you force them to stay in the building with you just because you'd rather trust yourself over strangers to protect the lives of your loved ones?
Shadow5YA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-21, 16:00   Link #1066
Haak
F**k my life...
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
Pretty strong episode, though predictably, I can't help but wonder if Hanemura cross-dressing was in the original story.
__________________
MyAnimeList
Avatar - Gekkan Shoujo Nozaki-kun
Signature - Gundam Reconguista in G
Haak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-21, 16:18   Link #1067
Bern-san
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
A good episode, I expected it to be worse although I'm not fond of some anime-original things
Spoiler for what was original:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Pretty strong episode, though predictably, I can't help but wonder if Hanemura cross-dressing was in the original story.
The cross dressing was in the manga

Surprised that they ended at the start of chapter 42 when Hanemura reached the Tree of Genesis, I thought they would put the cliffhanger of the end of chapter 42.
__________________
Bern-san is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-21, 16:22   Link #1068
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bern-san View Post
Why is leaving it to Hanemura one of the worst options?
Because he's a gutless wonder. It doesn't matter if he's technically got the same power as Aika: he lacks her will and courage. For that matter, he also lacks her knowledge. They told him what Aika told Hakaze, but that's my point: he needed to be told instead of just knowing. And there's no telling what she might have forgotten to mention, for one reason or another. Or what additional knowledge she might have gained as the Trees awoke.

Quote:
But if Aika wasn't confident that Hanemura would be capable of destroying the core then I'm sure she would reconsider killing herself but that wasn't the case.
She didn't even know he existed till Hakaze told her. What basis would her alleged confidence have?

Quote:
The same with Mahiro and the rest of the group, Hanemura is the key for the success of the plan so if he wasn't prepared then they would make him train more before considering the destruction of the Tree.
- they don't really know what it'd take to prepare him.
- there's only so much training can do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Also, if Hakaze completely halted Samon's reawakening of the Zetsuen Tree, Aika would not be at full power to face the Genesis Core, even if she still lived.
Aika implied her power depended on the power of the Genesis side. That it was always enough to prevail against them. What I understood was that it was a balance thing. So if the Genesis awakens fully, so does the Exodus.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
1 - Hanemura was accused of being a murderer after Samon's group already decided to oppose the Genesis tree. Evangeline would not have been given the same facts if Aika went directly to the Kusaribe clan. The only reason why Evangeline could arrive at the same conclusion is because Yoshino involved her and the rest of the military in his plot to have a countermeasure against both Mahiro and Samon.
So use Hakaze's future information to know to get in touch with Evangeline and her government friend.
Quote:
2- Without spoiling too much, I'll say just this: both Hakaze and Samon participated in the final battle against the military with their magic in the manga. As for how... I'll leave it to you to read the manga and find out.

The whole "Kusaribe magic being unusable" thing is just an anime original tweak to bring Mahiro and Yoshino into the spotlight.




What evidence do you have for any of this? If the Tree of Exodus can awaken on its own, why would Samon need to awaken the fruits? On top of that, did you not see the Tree of Genesis wrap around and Tree of Exodus and seal its power?
*shrug* That's what I understood: the Trees are going to have their final battle, and there's some kind of balancing mechanism. The Kusaribe can hasten or slow down the process with their little ceremonies, but it is going to happen.

Quote:
And helping him get to the tree isn't important? What? So if I play through The Legend of Zelda and the Master Sword is the only weapon that can kill the final boss, does that mean every other tool from the Bow, Bombs, Hookshot, and potions are completely useless for the entire game? That's a huge fallacy.
They're important because they've decided to get fancy. They want to get to the tree without killing anyone. If Aika doesn't worry about that, she can just brute force her way in.


Quote:
Again, why are you making it sound like it's a solo effort? Aika is leaving it to everyone to destroy the Tree of Genesis. It's not just Hanemura. The letters she wrote were addressed to Hakaze, Yoshino, and Mahiro.
Because neither Kusaribe magic nor conventional weaponry are going to work. So what's left for them to do? Sneak the Mage of Exodus in (which as I said isn't really necessary), and moral support. And planning, I guess, but how do you plan for a battle like that?


Quote:
This is false. Aika's power comes from the Tree of Exodus. The Tree of Exodus is still alive and now fully awakened thanks to Hakaze. Hanemura has the exact same powers as Aika.

If he needs knowledge of how the world works or battle experience, everyone has been giving him that knowledge. At this point, everyone knows as much as Aika does right now.
I more or less answered that earlier.


Quote:
False analogy.

Let's say you're on in a tall building with your loved ones, and the building catches on fire. You are told that someone will be at the bottom with a safety net to rescue them if they jump. Would you force them to stay in the building with you just because you'd rather trust yourself over strangers to protect the lives of your loved ones?
Why do you act like they're saved? It's not like Hakaze waited until after the final battle to go back in time and talk to Aika.

So, to go back to my own analogy: Hakaze can assure Aika the fire in the plane didn't kill them. But when it comes to the fall, all she can say is that they hadn't reached the ground yet when she left.
Anh_Minh is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-21, 16:45   Link #1069
shmaster
The Hades
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Aika implied her power depended on the power of the Genesis side. That it was always enough to prevail against them. What I understood was that it was a balance thing. So if the Genesis awakens fully, so does the Exodus.
Just want to point out, the fruit actually makes a lot of difference. The anime didn't really do a good job at showing how much Hanemur'as powr has increased correspond to the number of fruits released. The fruit and the Exodus Tree's actual function does not just trigger byt itself either. Some one has to be there to boot it up.
shmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-21, 20:57   Link #1070
creb
Hiding Under Your Bed
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
That ending was fantastic. I'm reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally hoping they don't cheese out and bring him back from death/near death a second time.

The repercussions, assuming they don't revive him, can make this ending a lot of fun.
creb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-21, 21:03   Link #1071
Shadow5YA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Gee Okada... if you want to write something original, can you not turn two intelligent boys into idiots who don't bother disarming their captives? I would think most people pretending to be terrorists would check for weapons...

Quote:
Originally Posted by creb View Post
That ending was fantastic. I'm reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally hoping they don't cheese out and bring him back from death/near death a second time.

The repercussions, assuming they don't revive him, can make this ending a lot of fun.
I hope he doesn't die, because an Okada original ending would make me rage.
Shadow5YA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-21, 21:45   Link #1072
creb
Hiding Under Your Bed
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Gee Okada... if you want to write something original, can you not turn two intelligent boys into idiots who don't bother disarming their captives? I would think most people pretending to be terrorists would check for weapons...



I hope he doesn't die, because an Okada original ending would make me rage.
I assume that's your way of saying he doesn't die in the manga? Thanks.
creb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-21, 21:53   Link #1073
DragoonKain3
Osana-Najimi Shipper
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mt. Ordeals
Oooh, that was certainly an interesting way of putting things. Mahiro was certainly cunning with his plan, though I guess in their haste/inexperience managed to let slip a weapon. XD

And no, I don't really care if they go original end or whatever, as long as it's interesting. And if it's anything Okada can do, it would be that, so I'm not too worried. Long ago I've learned to judge a show on its own merits, without any preconceived notion on what it SHOULD it have been instead, or how it deviated from the source. A bunch of shows I would have never otherwise enjoyed if I was such a stickler on how things should be, and my time was all the better for it.

So bring it on, final episode! Looking forward to the resolution, and I'm guessing by his words this episode, Mahiro is planning himself to be emperor of the world after the battle lol.
__________________

Yes its YOU childhood friend - source of BERZERKER RAGE since forever
Childhood Friend couple STATISTICS(spoilers abound though)
DragoonKain3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-21, 23:32   Link #1074
thundrakkon
Fly Away into the Night
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: USA
Wow, how stupid can the researcher captives be? You're tied up, barely able to move, are essentially safe, and you barely shoot ONE of the two guys there? Sheez, I wonder what the other guy will do to you after that, since before they essentially guaranteed your safety up to this point. They are scientists. I expected them to be smarter than this.

Actually, what I'm really curious about is, who is Hanemura's girlfriend? She is the most mentioned character not to appear in the anime so far.
__________________
thundrakkon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-21, 23:36   Link #1075
shmaster
The Hades
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Wow gee, Mary Sue, you never fail to create useless trouble. For the sake of drama, you deliberately created a situation that is nothing but stupid and made the characters OOC.
shmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-21, 23:45   Link #1076
Arczyx
None. ない. Nihil.
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Indonesia
Quote:
Originally Posted by thundrakkon View Post
Actually, what I'm really curious about is, who is Hanemura's girlfriend? She is the most mentioned character not to appear in the anime so far.
Spoiler for Hanemura's girlfriend:

Although that shot-by-the-hostage scene is really idiotic, I'm still looking forward to the anime original ending. Hoping for a different conclusion than the manga ending.

By the way, does anyone know how the heck those missiles could chase a flying human?
__________________

Last edited by Arczyx; 2013-03-22 at 01:42.
Arczyx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-22, 00:52   Link #1077
apotheosis
Shinigami
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by thundrakkon View Post
Wow, how stupid can the researcher captives be? You're tied up, barely able to move, are essentially safe, and you barely shoot ONE of the two guys there? Sheez, I wonder what the other guy will do to you after that, since before they essentially guaranteed your safety up to this point. They are scientists. I expected them to be smarter than this.

Actually, what I'm really curious about is, who is Hanemura's girlfriend? She is the most mentioned character not to appear in the anime so far.
Also ... Mahiro & Yoshino are very much attentive to detail & plan exquisitely. But they don't search the captives for weapons? Really?
apotheosis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-22, 00:56   Link #1078
creb
Hiding Under Your Bed
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by apotheosis View Post
Also ... Mahiro & Yoshino are very much attentive to detail & plan exquisitely. But they don't search the captives for weapons? Really?
I realize nothing is going to stop someone who wants to nitpick a plot point, but for what it's worth, Mahiro explicitly stated he and Yoshino would be fine on Survey boat duty, due to his belief that they were crewed by unarmed civilians.

creb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-22, 01:08   Link #1079
apotheosis
Shinigami
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
True, they did mention that they did not expect heavy opposition.

It just seems odd, that after all the crazy things those two have planned ... they miss something like that.
apotheosis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-22, 01:29   Link #1080
shmaster
The Hades
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bern-san View Post
A good episode, I expected it to be worse although I'm not fond of some anime-original things
Spoiler for what was original:
I think it is not just a little, but a lot. I was like "Who is this? This is not Yoshino." When he is renting in the pool scene. And to think Yoshino's first meeting with Aika was cut to fit this in.... UGHHHH!
shmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
bones, gangan, magic, mystery, shounen, tragedy, zetsuen

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:54.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.