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Old 2012-06-11, 20:49   Link #121
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuyuno View Post
Sorry if I bring this thread again but there just no decent threads which had recent posts. I also don't much opportunity to log in this forum either.



For some reasons I missed this post in first page. Maybe that's why I overlooked to it. By the way you are telling that Kuroshitsuji is made for girls who tired of shoujo romance mangas and craving for action bishies instead. Maybe there's a good reason why it had "G" in "GFantasy". "Girls' Fantasy" perhaps?

I think most of my problems would be solved if they can made completely new genre for Kuroshitsuji and some other similar titles are labeled as "bishounen action mangas for girls" instead of slapping word "shounen" on them.
1) Japanese write and speak in *Japanese*. "Girl" is an English word...
2) The labels (shounen, shoujo, seinen, etc) do not indicate what content may be expected - they only indicate the demographic the publisher mostly targets.
3) As has been said repeatedly, "shounen" has always been much more than just "action/fighting manga" - apparently many western fans find this idea very challenging?

Did you read any of the responses past the first page?
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Old 2012-06-11, 21:17   Link #122
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I think Fuyuno was joking about the "G" in GFantasy. I had pretty much the same idea too.

Back to topic I also quite agree on Fuyuno's idea to separate fujioshi pandering mangas than more "traditional" shounen ones. While it sounds too discriminative but I think that's the only way. Not everone going to like it but at least most of them can agree with.
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Old 2012-06-11, 21:36   Link #123
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Do note that Fantasy isn't an English word either.

Quote:
Back to topic I also quite agree on Fuyuno's idea to separate fujioshi pandering mangas than more "traditional" shounen ones.
They are already separated. There are multiple genres of manga and anime aimed at shounens.

As for "traditional," there is nothing more traditional about "shounen" shounen. Shounen has always been a demographic that has included things most western mainstream fans don't describe as shounen.

Quote:
While it sounds too discriminative but I think that's the only way.
Way to do what?
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Old 2012-06-11, 21:42   Link #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NK_500 View Post
Back to topic I also quite agree on Fuyuno's idea to separate fujioshi pandering mangas than more "traditional" shounen ones.
Having bishonens in a shonen manga is nothing new,I'm pretty darn sure that fujoshis were going crazy over the cast of Saint Saya back in the 80s
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Old 2012-06-11, 21:43   Link #125
Vexx
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Someone didn't read bullet item 2 and 3 from my post above ... (or the merely 4 pages of a thread which provided much illumination)

Shounen has always included many diverse offerings -- misuse of the word to only cover a *subset* of what is published by shounen publishers is UN-traditional: an error made by some fans of this subset. Any walk down the aisle of a japanese bookstore makes this quite clear (e.g. Kinokuniya).

The only thing that needs "fixing" here is the misunderstanding some fans have related to long-established japanese terminology meanings.
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Old 2012-06-11, 21:59   Link #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuyuno View Post
Sorry if I bring this thread again but there just no decent threads which had recent posts. I also don't much opportunity to log in this forum either.



For some reasons I missed this post in first page. Maybe that's why I overlooked to it. By the way you are telling that Kuroshitsuji is made for girls who tired of shoujo romance mangas and craving for action bishies instead. Maybe there's a good reason why it had "G" in "GFantasy". "Girls' Fantasy" perhaps?

I think most of my problems would be solved if they can made completely new genre for Kuroshitsuji and some other similar titles are labeled as "bishounen action mangas for girls" instead of slapping word "shounen" on them.

And how do you know there aren't boys in Japan who like those titles too.

Just because something has "bishounen" character designs doesn't mean it's just for girls.
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Old 2012-06-12, 03:51   Link #127
aohige
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OP, so you've been reading shounen manga for what... less than ten years?

I've been reading shounen manga since the early 80s.
There's been many many many MANY changes, more than you ever know, but it's here to stay.

Publisher self-censorship has changed the industry more than anything else, including female pandering.

Also, shounen is a demographic category defined by the type of magazine = publisher's choice, indicated by their consumer base.
It has nothing to do with content, genre, or reader opinion.
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Old 2012-06-13, 07:36   Link #128
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I think shounen is no longer the only victim of this trend. It already happened to seinen slice-of-life shows which featuring teenage girls by and for young adult men. Take K-On! for example. It supposed to be seen by teenage boys and young adult men but at same time it also attracted some numbers of female viewers, maybe most of them never saw anything like it before. While they liked the show but they hated the idea of putting girls on the pedestal and ignoring any male characters and their roles. Then Kimi to Boku is born(which basically K-On! with teenage boys and even less music). After Kimi to Boku, Tsuritama also on its way. In case with Tsuritama, we can already saw Mio and Ritsu clones in its promo poster except they are males. I don't think some girls watching and reading boys' stuffs as a good thing unless they are hardcore anime and manga connoisseurs, which are already rare to begin with.

Yes I am very discriminative but I just want shounen to back to its "boys' stuff" roots. No more bishies and homosexual undertones.
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Old 2012-06-13, 08:39   Link #129
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Is it just me, or is this thread going around in circles?

Fuyuno, are you actually reading anything that people like Vexx and many others have been saying since the first few pages (Ignoring the middle section where people started hijacking the thread) ?

Your idea of what is 'Shounen' is nothing but an illusion.
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Old 2012-06-13, 15:53   Link #130
Random32
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Quote:
Is it just me, or is this thread going around in circles?
circles

Quote:
Your idea of what is 'Shounen' is nothing but an illusion.
Its less of an illusion as a misunderstanding of definitions of words.

Quote:
Take K-On! for example. It supposed to be seen by teenage boys and young adult men but at same time it also attracted some numbers of female viewers, maybe most of them never saw anything like it before.
K-On! has a 30% female viewer base. Absurdly high for a late night anime, but not exactly as high as you seem to think.

Quote:
While they liked the show but they hated the idea of putting girls on the pedestal and ignoring any male characters and their roles.
Citation needed. Maybe for the western fanbase, but I don't think for the Japanese one. K-On!! was made keeping the female fanbase in mind, and it still has cute girls doing cute things.

Quote:
Then Kimi to Boku is born(which basically K-On! with teenage boys and even less music).
I'm pretty sure Kimi to Boku is less popular with female viewers than K-On! is. Also note that Kimi to Boku manga started before K-On! aired, thus most likely wasn't influenced at all by K-On!'s success in the female demographic.

Quote:
I don't think some girls watching and reading boys' stuffs as a good thing unless they are hardcore anime and manga connoisseurs, which are already rare to begin with.
If females like what they see in shounen/seinen series, what is wrong with them watching them? If the female fanbase goes over 50%, the publisher would probably move the series into a shoujo/josei magazine since it would probably be more profitable there.

Quote:
Yes I am very discriminative but I just want shounen to back to its "boys' stuff" roots. No more bishies and homosexual undertones.
shounen never had said roots. What you are really saying is that all series aimed at the shounen demographic should be aimed at the smaller subset of shounens in which you belong in.
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Old 2012-06-13, 17:05   Link #131
Vexx
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Emphasizing what Random32 just said: *smaller subset* of one branch of shounen does not equal the totality of shounen and NEVER HAS. I don't know how much more clearly or repeatedly so many posters (japanese, people in japan, people from japan, people who study japan) can say that.

It is like calling *all* vehicles made by Toyota by the name of "made-for-young-men-aged-18-26".
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Old 2012-06-13, 17:52   Link #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuyuno View Post
After Kimi to Boku, Tsuritama also on its way. In case with Tsuritama, we can already saw Mio and Ritsu clones in its promo poster except they are males.
Tsuritama is a fantastic show and if you read through the thread you will see (at least on Anime Suki) it is well received by male & female fans.

It is also not a high school/slice of life show like KON and Kimi to Boku so your comparison is weirdly off base.


Quote:
I don't think some girls watching and reading boys' stuffs as a good thing unless they are hardcore anime and manga connoisseurs, which are already rare to begin with.

Yes I am very discriminative but I just want shounen to back to its "boys' stuff" roots. No more bishies and homosexual undertones.
And as a woman I don't like being told what I should or shouldn't like. Thank You!
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Old 2012-06-13, 18:30   Link #133
NK_500
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While I'm not on Fuyuno's side but I can see what he worried about. Take Sword Girls for example. It is an online trading card game for male gamers, just look how skimpy the costumes worn by Crux and Darklore characters. But at same time there are lots of female gamers playing it, maybe because there's no similar games for female gamers, yet. From what I heard there's some female gamers are actually developing similar games with bishies instead of teenage girls and young women. I don't know whether they are international gamers or just South Korean one(although SG was developed by joint effort of Japanese and South Korean developers but I think Korean ones did most the job since PC gaming there is many times bigger than in Japan, especially online ones). Maybe not in this year but a year or two I'm not surprised if it real, at least the rumor.

I believe other people can give better examples than this one. Maybe I worried too much about SG and thus some weird things happened in my head.

Oh yeah K-On! had more preeten girls watching it than its intended audiences(teenage boys and young men) because it was shown in Disney Channel Japan, not on channels that more popular to most male otakus like ATX for example.
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Old 2012-06-13, 18:34   Link #134
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Originally Posted by NK_500 View Post
Oh yeah K-On! had more preeten girls watching it than its intended audiences(teenage boys and young men) because it was shown in Disney Channel Japan.
In reruns. The first run was on TBS, which has aired all kinds of anime.
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Old 2012-06-14, 00:40   Link #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuyuno View Post
I think shounen is no longer the only victim of this trend. It already happened to seinen slice-of-life shows which featuring teenage girls by and for young adult men. Take K-On! for example.

K-on is hardly the first teenage girl comedy published in a shonen or Seinen, an older example that comes to mind is Azumanga Daioh that was first published in 1999 long before k-on! ever came into existence.

Someone already pointed it out but Kimi to Boku was first published in 2004 before K-on! was published.

Quote:
I don't think some girls watching and reading boys' stuffs as a good thing unless they are hardcore anime and manga connoisseurs, which are already rare to begin with.
Do you honestly think mangas like One Piece have achieved the massive success they have without appealing to girls as well as boys?

Or take an author like Mitsuru Adachi,he's always managed to be popular amongst both girls and boys,Touch is one of the most popular anime of the 80s and was popular with both genders even if it was published in a shonen magazine.
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Old 2012-06-14, 00:53   Link #136
Marcus H.
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I think the "shounen" that most people (read: avid fans of Naruto and Bleach and One Piece, etc.) think is shounen is the nekketsu category of shounen series. One misconception is that shounen is supposed to contain what a boy from the shounen age group wants: GUTS, the power of friendship, superpowers and defeating evil.

However, it's no longer the case here. In fact, it's probably much better to just categorize a series using genres, not age groups, since many of the series right now end up catering even those who do not belong to its age group category (and it's a good thing).
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Old 2012-06-14, 01:15   Link #137
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I'm rather amazed (well, or maybe I'm not) at just how remarkably similar the issue in this thread is compared to other recent threads. I think we can do this MadLibs style.
I'm a fan of ____(genre/style/demographic/category)____ anime/manga. Recently, I've noticed a lot more ____(disliked "trend")____ in shows that are otherwise ____(genre/style/demographic/category)____ type works. I think this is bad for the industry because they aren't making enough new shows/works exactly the way I like it, and I think this is turning away potential anime/manga fans who may be turned away by ____(disliked "trend")____. They should keep ____(disliked "trend")____ out of ____(genre/style/demographic/category)____ works; keep it in its own genre so that people who want that element can have it and I can have what I want without it. Why won't the industry do this?
(I suppose this isn't necessarily limited to anime/manga either. Could easily do it about just about anything. Like action elements in RPG games, or MMO elements in single-player games, or...)

How do you think evolution occurs? It's not like any genre we have today started out of some vat of purity and goodness and has been "corrupted" over time. People always take elements that are popular and combine them in various ways and see what combinations stick. That's the way they came up with the stories in the past, and that's the way they're still coming up with stories today. It's an action and a reaction. And, while some people who don't like this combination may be turned away, new fans who do like this combination will be added, and probably at a faster rate than blindly sticking to formulas/combinations that were popular in the past.

So, just like last time, I think this is a "the industry is evolving, but my tastes are not" thread. The problem isn't that they're "corrupting what a shounen show should be" (or that the audience is expanding beyond the traditional gender/crowd -- if anything that's a good thing!), but rather that the genres are morphing and evolving over time, and you have to evolve your selection process to find shows that appeal to your own unique tastes (which may or may not line up along any sort of traditional lines, demographics, or definitions). If your selection process before was "I picked it up because it said 'shounen' on the cover"... then you may need to start doing more research first. Shounen is a massive and very general classification that doesn't describe the content.
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-06-14 at 01:53. Reason: Fixed per below :p
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Old 2012-06-14, 01:24   Link #138
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^

Not that I agree with any of the assertions of the OP necessarily, but the way your phrase "evolving" seems to imply that this is necessarily a movement in a positive direction for the industry intrinsically so. Even if we look at these decisions as motivated primarily by profit and the industry is simply trying to cater to more modern tastes, we're ignoring the possible idea here that this may not even be the best choice for the industry. Couldn't it be true that artistic integrity has dropped? Couldn't it be true that the industry is limiting itself commercially with their practices? Maybe what the industry thinks is modern taste isn't really and they got it wrong?

There are many possibilities here, but I'm just trying to say this may not be so simple as "waaah they aren't making what I like anymore and I can't adapt" as you seem to be putting it.
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Old 2012-06-14, 01:42   Link #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I'm a fan of ____(genre/style)____ anime/manga. Recently, I've noticed a lot more ____(disliked "trend")____ in shows that are otherwise ____(genre/style)____ type works. I think this is bad for the industry because they aren't making enough new shows/works exactly the way I like it, and I think this is turning away potential anime/manga fans who may be turned away by ____(disliked "trend")____. They should keep ____(disliked "trend")____ out of ____(genre/style)____ works; keep it in its own genre so that people who want that element can have it and I can have what I want without it. Why won't the industry do this?
But I and other posters have been saying over and over again , "shonen" isn't a genre or style
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Old 2012-06-14, 01:52   Link #140
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Not that I agree with any of the assertions of the OP necessarily, but the way your phrase "evolving" seems to imply that this is necessarily a movement in a positive direction for the industry intrinsically so. Even if we look at these decisions as motivated primarily by profit and the industry is simply trying to cater to more modern tastes, we're ignoring the possible idea here that this may not even be the best choice for the industry. Couldn't it be true that artistic integrity has dropped? Couldn't it be true that the industry is limiting itself commercially with their practices? Maybe what the industry thinks is modern taste isn't really and they got it wrong?

There are many possibilities here, but I'm just trying to say this may not be so simple as "waaah they aren't making what I like anymore and I can't adapt" as you seem to be putting it.
I have more confidence in market forces than in the strength of my own opinion and value judgements. If they're heading down a bad road, the market will react, and they'll have to change course. As I said, it's an action and a reaction. Things that are less successful will die, and things that are more successful will live. So in that sense, evolution is necessarily a "positive direction" because it's driven by the will to survive (and thus I have more confidence in those whose survival is dependant on this medium's continuance than the opinions of individual fans with little at stake but their own enjoyment). And while we're in the middle of the process, it's hard to judge the net effect of any given trend anyway. Only time will tell where all this leads.

Besides, what can you as a fan do but adapt or die? It's not like the execs at these companies are reading this forum and going "man, these kids have so much insight into the anime industry!". If anything, they laugh at our arrogance despite not actually knowing anything at all. We shouldn't think of ourselves as higher than we ought to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
But I and other posters have been saying over and over again , "shonen" isn't a genre or style
I guess I should add "demographic/category". Edit: Fixed!
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