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Old 2012-12-20, 11:22   Link #3241
Kamui04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
More character design arts:

Images
Automobile Club Girls Lineart
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
Following the thematical names, the vehicle club members are named after famous japanese racing drivers.
Tsuchiya obviously after Keiichi "Drift King" Tsuchiya with her eagerness to drift the Tiger P
Suzuki maybe after Aguri Suzuki former F1 driver and owner of different teams in various racing categories.
Nakajima for Kazuki Nakajima.
and Hoshino for Kazuyoshi Hoshino.
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Old 2012-12-20, 11:22   Link #3242
Midonin
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Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst View Post
To ask your opinion, then, is there simply not enough character content in GuP to really discuss?
I've been trying to suss this out over the past several weeks, and here's what I've managed to figure out. The main five have had enough of their family interactions and personal relationships shown that they can be discussed well enough, though even they tend to be a bit one-note at times. (Saori's boyfriend/marriage running gag isn't supplemented by much else.) The student council also has enough focus spread around and importance to the story that they could be looked at, too. And during discussion of the first episode, they were, for the way they dragged Miho into things.

Every other Ooarai team has next to nothing. The historical girls are fan favorites, but more for who they're cosplaying as than anything about themselves. The first years in particular are a hive mind who have almost no given personality. I already aired my problems with this back in episode 5.5.

Now, for the rival teams - Black Forest and Maho are important enough that they can and have been discussed, and the other teams are kept small enough that they have one or two members of importance who receive ample characterization. I'm okay with this. To go back to Saki, Senriyama was basically defined by Toki and Ryuuka, with the other girls as flavor. I just have more problems with the other Ooarai teams (especially the mechanics and the Momogawa team introduced this week) because they're in a position where they could be considered main characters. And again, the poor first years.

The show has enough character development that I can watch and comment every week, but I'm not sure it would be sustainable to people who are watching the show for the girls instead of the machines. And for a person who judges shows primarily by characters and character interactions, that's a pretty glaring flaw.
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Old 2012-12-20, 11:29   Link #3243
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
The show has enough character development that I can watch and comment every week, but I'm not sure it would be sustainable to people who are watching the show for the girls instead of the machines. And for a person who judges shows primarily by characters and character interactions, that's a pretty glaring flaw.
That's not a flaw, that is part of the design. This is Girls und Panzer, and the purpose is to give the girls and the tanks equal time. This was not easy in the best of times, and that is why ep 11 and 12 are delayed until March. But one simply can't deliberately ignore the tanks when watching it; that would be writing off 50% of the show.

There are plenty of shows that are about girls. That is not this series' purpose. This show has two aspects, and one needs to care about both to watch both.
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Old 2012-12-20, 11:48   Link #3244
willx
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
That's not a flaw, that is part of the design. This is Girls und Panzer, and the purpose is to give the girls and the tanks equal time. This was not easy in the best of times, and that is why ep 11 and 12 are delayed until March. But one simply can't deliberately ignore the tanks when watching it; that would be writing off 50% of the show.

There are plenty of shows that are about girls. That is not this series' purpose. This show has two aspects, and one needs to care about both to watch both.
I personally feel like there hasn't been much character development aside from some pretty obvious and blatant "THIS IS CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT" scenes. What makes this show special to me and why I watch it is the attention to detail and care in crafting what appears to be an immensely vast and detailed world.

The world in the show just feels so real. Living and breathing with its own customs, history and traditions. To me, this makes the lack of character development okay, simply because it paints them as "some girls" living in this world.

So rather than focusing on just TANKS or GIRLS, I'd say my interest is split:
40% - THE WORLD ("Za Warudo!!!")
30% - Tanks!
20% - Girls!
10% - Minutiae (Posters, Kelly's Heroes, etc)
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Old 2012-12-20, 11:49   Link #3245
Duo Maxwell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst View Post
While GuP's storyline resembles Saki in many ways, I would think (I should check, but it's a good assumption) that discussions of Saki episodes didn't end up having wide-ranging debates about mahjong. There probably would have been a lot more discussion of the technical aspects of Strike Witches if they'd been flying their aircraft instead of wearing them.
From what I remember, it actually turned into "How can I learn Japanese Mahjong" and "Mahjong online" thread.

And on /a/, GuP is all about WoT and waifu discussion, with "where is Saki looking at?" occasionally popping up.
Oh, and a shitstorm about which girl is dumb.
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Old 2012-12-20, 11:51   Link #3246
Tak
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Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
I've always been the type of person to value character over plot, so that's why the lack of linear narrative never really bothered me here, and why I could also discuss it. The reason why I continue to bring up Upotte!! is that basically the same thing happened as what's happening here - the show itself and the thread became so consumed with discussion on the technical aspects (in that case... guns), that I basically retreated for thinking I wouldn't have anything to contribute
See, I like this show in a way that you probably cannot appreciate. That is, the hardware over characters. When I heard what Girls und Panzer was about, I expected to see a display of World War II hardware as opposed to whoever operating them. The show offered an interesting premise and passable characterization, but I think the producers knew what the audiences were expecting and gave the show focus on the Panzers.

Characters in this show were secondary to everything else. Though I must admit, the characters nonetheless found a way to invade my psyche. Quite an achievement, I tell ya.

- Tak
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Old 2012-12-20, 11:53   Link #3247
Midonin
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
See, I like this show in a way that you probably cannot appreciate. That is, the hardware over characters.
But to me, that just feels weird and unnatural. Tanks don't get character songs, characters do. I know that the scenery and the world can sometimes be characters unto themselves, but that's often done on top of making us care about the humans first.
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Old 2012-12-20, 11:56   Link #3248
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I don't know....I feel like the character are getting enough screen time for what they are worth. I mean, the reason WWII tanks are fascinating is because they are operating by a group of brothers in arm, not individual, and this shows did a good job showing both aspect of the people and the tanks. Why couldn't we look at a group of girls as, say, a group? Why must we are forced to care about each single girl?
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Old 2012-12-20, 11:58   Link #3249
Tak
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Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
But to me, that just feels weird and unnatural. Tanks don't get character songs, characters do. I know that the scenery and the world can sometimes be characters unto themselves, but that's often done on top of making us care about the humans first.
But the music most of us appreciate from this series thus far aren't even original melodies...

Katushya, anyone?

From British Grenadiers to Erika... and later to be followed by Panzerlied... I tell ya, I wish this entire show would have had marching music as BGM.

- Tak
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Old 2012-12-20, 12:01   Link #3250
Midonin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell View Post
I don't know....I feel like the character are getting enough screen time for what they are worth. I mean, the reason WWII tanks are fascinating is because they are operating by a group of brothers in arm, not individual, and this shows did a good job showing both aspect of the people and the tanks. Why couldn't we look at a group of girls as, say, a group? Why must we are forced to care about each single girl?
If it was just one group, that'd be fine - examining how a sports team plays together can make for some interesting discussion. (Like with Taisho Baseball Girls, that was a good one.) But Ooarai has so many characters that are minimally defined that it exceeds the limit of what I'm willing to consider acceptable. Even the "leaders" of the non-main characters/student council teams have been very one-note. The most interesting thing I could tell you about the head of the Volleyball team is that she's voiced by Mika Kikuchi. I don't know much about her as a person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
But the music most of us appreciate from this series thus far aren't even original melodies...
I've always been more interested in opening/ending themes and character songs than soundtracks. The music the series uses to define its own identity.
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Old 2012-12-20, 12:21   Link #3251
Kamui04
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I'd say some people prefer to munch & enjoy each ingredient separately, others enjoy the meal as a whole, some others enjoy the presentation, and some are allergic to it and go for something else.

In my case I've enjoyed how they have managed the air time so far, without relegating the tanks to being merely 0.01% of the show like others have done. GuP wouldn't feel the same with the girls goofing around all day long and magically winning matches that take 10 seconds like against Anzio.

With 32 characters for the whole Oarai team in a 1 cour anime, it was obvious that most wouldn't get enough development, if not at all. Let's take examples of other shows where characters are mixed with technical stuff, for example Mecha anime. Do every secondary or minor character get any chance to develop, a lot just are merely there to move the plot forward.

On the other hand sometimes people pick up an anime expecting certain things. For example K-on, being a light music club you expect something more than girls having tea, eating cakes and goofing around 99.99% of the time and the musical aspect relegated to 0.01% of the show with some tidbits here and there. To tell the truth, I still enjoyed it but I simply switched off my brain and just went wit the flow. Compared to other shows like Nodame Cantabile where it struck me as having the right balance of comedy, slice of life, character development and musical aspect to keep me engaged.

Last edited by Kamui04; 2012-12-20 at 12:39.
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Old 2012-12-20, 12:48   Link #3252
Midonin
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Originally Posted by Kamui04 View Post
On the other hand sometimes people pick up an anime expecting certain things. For example K-on, being a light music club you expect something more than girls having tea, eating cakes and goofing around 99.99% of the time and the musical aspect relegated to 0.01% of the show with some tidbits here and there.
Music is still important, more than the average conception of the show makes it out to be. It's simply more of a symbol and a plot catalyst - the characters are still front and center, as they should be. Yui worked with Gitah, but the awesomeness of his brand and ability to produce certain sounds never overpowered the emotional aspects, the human aspects of the story. Here, most, if not all of the characters, feel like they're just... there. Managing a large cast can be possible in this amount of episodes - OreTsuba and any individual season of Koihime Musou stand out - but here, I'm just not comfortable with the hardware having more characterization and screentime than the people driving it. I care more about something if I can root for the people, otherwise it's just a machine.
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Old 2012-12-20, 12:49   Link #3253
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Old 2012-12-20, 13:02   Link #3254
Endless Knackwurst
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http://www.ne.jp/asahi/humikane/e-wacs/tw/pr.jpg
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Old 2012-12-20, 13:14   Link #3255
HashiriyaR32
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QUACK

Started the series last night and managed to get all caught up. A shame that ep 11 and 12 will have to wait until after the new year.
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Old 2012-12-20, 13:57   Link #3256
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui04 View Post
With 32 characters for the whole Oarai team in a 1 cour anime, it was obvious that most wouldn't get enough development, if not at all. Let's take examples of other shows where characters are mixed with technical stuff, for example Mecha anime. Do every secondary or minor character get any chance to develop, a lot just are merely there to move the plot forward.
That was my concern before the show aired; that the only way for them to have a team of multiple tanks, was to need a ridiculously large cast for such a short anime series.

Initially I thought that the show would be like Upotte, with the girls BEING tanks, or like Strike Witches, with one girl getting a tank each and controlling them via magic. The idea being then you would still have a manageable number of characters. This of course would throw any realism out of the window. We could forget about any real discussions on the capability of these tanks in any relate-able scenarios.

This would also mean the tanks would be nothing more than window dressing. As without a realistic tank crew, most of the portrayal of tank combat is gone.

Alternatively I thought they would focus on only ONE tank. That of the main girls crewing the vehicle and no one else. This means team battles are impossible. And of course early on I realised that wasn't the direction they were going.

What they ended up doing was a surprise; mostly fully crewed tanks, with most girls getting voices. They had to sacrifice character screen time to fit everyone in, and it was probably the hardest path to take. But it really was the only way to go to ensure minimum magic and maximum tank team combat. This also means they had to cut corners on everyone who isn't a tank crew member; they can't afford too many side characters. Voice actresses had to get paid.
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Old 2012-12-20, 14:00   Link #3257
Ithekro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst View Post

Looks like this could be Nano's Russian cousin KV2-D2.
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Old 2012-12-20, 14:05   Link #3258
Midonin
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However, I don't necessarily watch anime for realism. This is why I'm looking forward to Vivid Red Operation, more now than ever. The primary weapons are completely fictional, and, while they may be discussed to some degree, this means the characters will have to be the most important thing. I understand what the show is trying to do, and I know that it has a certain audience it appeals to, it just feels unbalanced from my perspective. I'd love to see a spinoff that could do something like give each of the first year girls their own dreams, their own ambitions, their own personalities... but I know there's a slim to none chance of that happening. The show may be building a world, but except for the main characters, it just barely feels like it's populated by anybody. I was glad when the council mentioned past, non-tank related events a few weeks ago. That did more for me than the somewhat myopic view the show takes in regards to its main subject.
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Old 2012-12-20, 14:13   Link #3259
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
However, I don't necessarily watch anime for realism. This is why I'm looking forward to Vivid Red Operation, more now than ever. The primary weapons are completely fictional, and, while they may be discussed to some degree, this means the characters will have to be the most important thing. I understand what the show is trying to do, and I know that it has a certain audience it appeals to, it just feels unbalanced from my perspective. I'd love to see a spinoff that could do something like give each of the first year girls their own dreams, their own ambitions, their own personalities... but I know there's a slim to none chance of that happening. The show may be building a world, but except for the main characters, it just barely feels like it's populated by anybody. I was glad when the council mentioned past, non-tank related events a few weeks ago. That did more for me than the somewhat myopic view the show takes in regards to its main subject.
Vehemently disagree. A world is full of people .. who "don't matter" ..

I kid, but my point is a world doesn't feel real if the main characters are all important to the entire universe. The world moves on and develops with or without you. That's what makes a world feel real. The fact that even the main characters are such tiny actors on such a huge stage. What you describe would be a myopic view specific to the characters, at the cost of the world, is what I feel..

As you say, each of the characters have their own dreams, ambitions and personalities .. but they are what they are .. single solitary human beings. Therefore each of their own interests, in the interest of world building, won't and shouldn't be focused upon .. instead it they should simply be portrayed in the nuances of their actions and reactions in contrast with each other and the world itself. Not everyone deserves a monologue..
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Old 2012-12-20, 14:20   Link #3260
Midonin
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Vehemently disagree. A world is full of people .. who "don't matter" ..

I kid, but my point is a world doesn't feel real if the main characters are all important to the entire universe. The world moves on and develops with or without you. That's what makes a world feel real. The fact that even the main characters are such tiny actors on such a huge stage. What you describe would be a myopic view specific to the characters, at the cost of the world, is what I feel..
There are many pockets of the world, and my preference lies for focusing on a smaller segment of the world, a microcosm of society, with a tighter, more fleshed out cast, as opposed to the inverse that we're getting here. I know this debate probably won't be resolved, and will likely lay dormant until March, but hopefully it can spurn at least a thread in the general anime forum. Mostly, it just feels good to air all this out after holding back on it since episode five or so.
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