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Old 2013-03-13, 12:51   Link #4581
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Who said it was with a tank? Hatches which are underwater are relatively common you know.
So now you weren't fighting against a heavy tank hatch while the world is gyrating around you? And it wasn't an accident so you got to prepare? That's starting to get very far from your "Been there, done that" boast.

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For that matter, my taking martial arts seriously does not equal hardcore school. It's a standard I put myself up to whenever I do kendo and such.
I'm sure you must have caught on by now that getting such views while doing martial arts these days is a real rarity.
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Old 2013-03-13, 13:01   Link #4582
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
So now you weren't fighting against a heavy tank hatch while the world is gyrating around you? And it wasn't an accident so you got to prepare? That's starting to get very far from your "Been there, done that" boast.
And the situation you describe above applies to GuP in what way?



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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I'm sure you must have caught on by now that getting such views while doing martial arts these days is a real rarity.
And? I don't compromise my values just because the rest of the world is being soft.
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Old 2013-03-13, 14:25   Link #4583
Ithekro
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Well the Panzer III that Miho went to save seems to have been completely submurged in the river for one thing. It was buttoned up completely for another. It did not enter the water horizontally, but nearly on its side and seems to have tipped over towards its end while sinking. This is is afted taking a near-miss that knocked them off a cliff to slide into the water...maybe 10 meters? We cannot be sure if the crew is conscious, as we don't have enough data on that. If the majority of that tanks hatches are welded shut, than the means of escape is narrow at best.

The failure in the situation (by your count) is Miho leaving her tank.

There are two other failures. One is the game was not called, if indeed the situation was life threatening (or would they have to wait until someone died to call that? Would they declare Pravda disqualifed if that killed someone?). The other was Miho's tank crew sitting around seemingly doing nothing, not even returning fire. The Panzer III behind Miho's tank immediately started for the front so the time between the first falling and the Tiger being taken out wasn't all that long. It is entirely possible they would have lost reguardless of if Miho was in the tank or not (meaning she would become the scapgoat rather than her sister).
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Old 2013-03-13, 15:54   Link #4584
ForwardUntoDawn
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Originally Posted by RRW View Post
Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
It was only a matter of time, but that looks really uncomfortable

In light of the heated discussion about what is likely to happen, from a personal standpoint, the finale is shaping up to be asymmetrical warfare. I imagine Miho will wield guerilla tactics, preferring to hit and fade rather than do anything direct (perhaps more so than what the PVs have shown thus far). This is a tactic used wherever there is a significant discrepancy between two parties, and is perhaps the only reasonable approach given the numerical and technological gap between Ooarai and Black Forest.

Historical events have illustrated the effectiveness of guerilla warfare: some of the more well-known examples include the Vietnam War and the Soviet war in Afghanistan. In both cases, a superior, formally organised army encountered substantial difficulty in defeating an informal force, eventually concluding that such a war could not be realistically fought without unreasonable casualties and cost to themselves.

This definitely does not analogously describe the situation in Girls und Panzer, but I imagine that Black Forest is used to dealing with an opponent via the symmetrical warfare doctrine. As such, combating against an enemy that disappears quickly before retaliation can be made would be frustrating in terms of morale.

Lastly, it is possible to approach martial arts (in this context, Panzerfahren) seriously and still maintain a sense of honour to respect their opponents. The true meaning of martial arts is to strive for self-improvement, especially discipline and restraint.
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Old 2013-03-13, 17:25   Link #4585
Random Wanderer
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
And? I don't compromise my values just because the rest of the world is being soft.
Indeed?

You said you do kendo, correct? Here is an analogous situation for you, then. You are in the middle of a kendo tournament, having a match. Neither you nor your opponent has scored a touch yet. Suddenly your opponent collapses, very obviously having a heart-attack. Do you continue attacking them anyway?
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Old 2013-03-13, 17:43   Link #4586
Sumeragi
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And how is that analogous? The problem here is that GuP showed a matter that was not life and death, which people are hyping to absurd proportions.
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Old 2013-03-13, 17:49   Link #4587
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
And how is that analogous? The problem here is that GuP showed a matter that was not life and death, which people are hyping to absurd proportions.
They were in a tank that was submerging. How is that not a matter of life and death?

Let's say, for discussion's sake, that we take you at your word that you'd have no problem getting out alive after having your tank getting shot and falling several meters into a river. How is that even relevant? Or what, the lives of those who aren't as badass as you are don't matter?
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Old 2013-03-13, 17:54   Link #4588
Random Wanderer
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
And how is that analogous? The problem here is that GuP showed a matter that was not life and death, which people are hyping to absurd proportions.
We have repeatedly explained many times and many reasons how and why it was. You are choosing to ignore that because it doesn't suit your argument.
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Old 2013-03-13, 18:09   Link #4589
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
We have repeatedly explained many times and many reasons how and why it was. You are choosing to ignore that because it doesn't suit your argument.
And I consider all those "reasons" as something unconsciously made up or at least inflated to justify the basic argument, given that it was a situation where simple calm actions of a trained crew could have solved things without outside interference.
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Old 2013-03-13, 18:09   Link #4590
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
When the incident itself would not have caused deaths unless the crew themselves did not know what to do despite all the training they had, I would say there was no reason for any stopping the match in the first thing. If this was something like the tank catching on fire or falling off a cliff and crashing hard on the bottom, there would have been a legitimate reason. However, the incidents in question all involved situations where the crew themselves would have, or should have, been able to get things done themselves.
On your assertation that only an incompetant crew could not open the hatches, I'd like to remind you of the experiments Top Gear and Mythbusters did with escaping submerged cars.

In both experiments, it was found that when the car is submerged, there is ZERO CHANCE of being able to open the car door and escape, due to pressure imbalances. And this is by grown men. The car doors could only be opened once the cars were completely filled with water. This was not so much of an issue, given that they were experimenting in pools, but Adam and Jamie agreed that waiting for equalised pressure was not ideal if you fell into a deep pool, as the chances of drowning were substantial.

As I recall, both Hammond and Jamie had to resort to oxygen, by the way. Which none of the tank crews have.

But I suppose this is the difference between martial arts and warfighting. Martial arts emphasises the forms and a rigid sense of honor, including death before dishonor, as Shiho's interpretation appears to be.

Warfigthing is about getting shit done and best effort at coming home safely. Less honor beyond "Don't be a douche or a socoipathic genocidal raping madman," more on the substance of the end result.

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And I consider all those "reasons" as something made up to justify the basic argument.
I find it interesting that you consider the policies of the premier military in the world to be something made up, and apparently beneath your notice, given how casually you've dismissed what I said earlier.
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Old 2013-03-13, 18:14   Link #4591
Ithekro
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
And I consider all those "reasons" as something unconsciously made up or at least inflated to justify the basic argument, given that it was a situation where simple calm actions of a trained crew could have solved things without outside interference.
What reasons? The tank was submurged in the river with all the hatches closed. What World War II tank, that wasn't designed to forge rivers underwater, can not be considered a death trap if it falls into a river?
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Old 2013-03-13, 18:16   Link #4592
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
I find it interesting that you consider the policies of the premier military in the world to be something made up, and apparently beneath your notice, given how casually you've dismissed what I said earlier.
What policies would you be speaking of?
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Old 2013-03-13, 18:32   Link #4593
Random Wanderer
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
What policies would you be speaking of?
The ones that he posted in a response to you earlier today. The ones that you apparently ignored, just like you've apparently ignored the explanations and reasoning most of the rest of us have used whenever it hasn't suited your purpose.

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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
And I consider all those "reasons" as something unconsciously made up or at least inflated to justify the basic argument, given that it was a situation where simple calm actions of a trained crew could have solved things without outside interference.
And I consider you to be a troll in regards to this topic, but at least until now I've been polite enough to try to give you the benefit of the doubt and attempt to debate this reasonably. I believe you are deliberately ignoring rationality and prolonging this argument solely for your own amusement, and I have grown sick of it.
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Old 2013-03-13, 18:44   Link #4594
Sumeragi
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Had to go back and check:

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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
I should also note that the US Army and US Air Force don't share your opinion: despite NTC and Red Flag training and treating each training sortie as though it were real combat, safety is still paramount, and had a situation such as what those girls went through happened, referees would have called an immediate halt.
If we're talking of this one, the situation itself would be considered as part of the exercises and there would have been no halt called unless life was directly threatened. What do you think all the amphibious assault exercises were for? A show?


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Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
And I consider you to be a troll in regards to this topic, but at least until now I've been polite enough to try to give you the benefit of the doubt and attempt to debate this reasonably. I believe you are deliberately ignoring rationality and prolonging this argument solely for your own amusement, and I have grown sick of it.
Think what you will, I will fight against bigoted opinions either way.
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Old 2013-03-13, 19:00   Link #4595
Ithekro
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The question would be, "how are those opinions bigoted?"


Though on the other hand I know some people who consider the Armies of Sauron to be the "good guys" in the Lord of the Rings. Or the Galactic Empire in Star Wars to be the "good guys". So opinions and stances on a subject can vary greatly.
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Old 2013-03-13, 19:00   Link #4596
Random Wanderer
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Think what you will, I will fight against bigoted opinions either way.
Then fight yourself.
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Old 2013-03-13, 19:06   Link #4597
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
The question would be, "how are those opinions bigoted?"
When people jump to "bloodlust" on someone for believing that one should not jump down to help in a circumstance that was not clearly a dire emergency. That in itself is intolerance. Frankly, this entire discussion is based around on that simple accusation.
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Old 2013-03-13, 19:19   Link #4598
Ithekro
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So part of the issue is whether one considers the situation dire or not. I'm under the impression the most consider the emergency dire, where as you appear to be in the minority in thinking it is not a dire emergency.

Though a large part of the problem is that we get only part of the story in flashback without much context or resolution.

It is entirely possible you are correct, but the way most people see the situation, it appears you are not. It is a matter of perception. You may be right, but very few think you are.
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Old 2013-03-13, 20:13   Link #4599
Top Sergeant
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Miho diving into the river to aid her comrades was the correct choice. Its certainly what I would expect from any of my NCOs. And while sensha-do is not warfare, it is still an organized force under arms, and the responsibility and authority of leadership are still applicable.
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Old 2013-03-13, 21:32   Link #4600
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
When people jump to "bloodlust" on someone for believing that one should not jump down to help in a circumstance that was not clearly a dire emergency. That in itself is intolerance. Frankly, this entire discussion is based around on that simple accusation.
Try reading this link about escaping/rescuing people from cars that have gone into water. You may note that the author, a trained water rescue consultant, almost immediately dismisses the doors as a viable escape route. Once the doors are underwater, they will not open without more force than a single human can exert, until the interior of the car has been completely flooded. The only reliable method of escape, and the method that the article goes into good detail about, is to break a window.

Apply this to tanks. You do not have windows to break. Once the hatches are underwater, and they were, the crew will be unable to open them, even assuming the fall and disorientation and potential injuries haven't rendered them unable to reach them. It is not a matter of competence. It is a matter of physics.

We have not been lying to you. We haven't been exaggerating, or making up random things to excuse bigotry. We have been presenting facts. Just because you don't want to believe them doesn't make them any less factual. People caught in a submerged tank with closed hatches will drown if they are not rescued.
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