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Old 2013-03-13, 21:42   Link #4601
Sumeragi
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The fact that we're applying automobiles to tanks is in itself an absurd comparison. Unless all of you realize that, this discussion is not going anywhere.
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Old 2013-03-13, 21:43   Link #4602
Wild Goose
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Random Wanderer, if Sumeragi ignored my post about the experiments Top Gear and Mythbusters did, which are readily available on Youtube with a minimum of searching, he's going to ignore you too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
If we're talking of this one, the situation itself would be considered as part of the exercises and there would have been no halt called unless life was directly threatened. What do you think all the amphibious assault exercises were for? A show?
If a tank that was not meant to be operated submerged, fell into the water, and is being swept away by strong currents, and there is a grave risk of the crew drowning - if you do not consider this to be "life directly threatened", emphasis mine, I really have nothing more to say.

Also, you don't seem to realise that the US is institutionally obsessed with safety during exercises. Particularly an amphibious landing operation, where there is great risk of loss of life. Hell, recruits have died in river crossings, which generated huge scandal and revamp of safety rules.

Sacrifices to win a war, where the cause is just and the need is dire, is one thing. A needless sacrifice to hold on to a trophy does not compare and is not in the same league.

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Think what you will, I will fight against bigoted opinions either way.
This isn't bigotry, this is simply people who disagree with you quite strongly, and you refusing to budge. The fact that you're calling those who disagree with you "bigoted", in an attempt to stir up an emotional response and shift the focus onto your opponents, is an ad hominem. This strongly suggests that you know your argument is weak, and thus you attempt to shift focus away from a position that is shown to be more and more precarious and indefensible.

Besides, when all is said and done, if you're going to go down that path, I'd point out that you're the one who appears more the bigot than the rest of us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
The fact that we're applying automobiles to tanks is in itself an absurd comparison. Unless all of you realize that, this discussion is not going anywhere.
You do realise that the principles of escaping a submerged vehicle are the fucking same? And that a car door is significantly lighter than a tank's hatch?

No, I suppose you don't.
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Old 2013-03-13, 21:51   Link #4603
Sumeragi
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I'll get back to the other stuff, but this first:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
This isn't bigotry, this is simply people who disagree with you quite strongly, and you refusing to budge. The fact that you're calling those who disagree with you "bigoted", in an attempt to stir up an emotional response and shift the focus onto your opponents, is an ad hominem. This strongly suggests that you know your argument is weak, and thus you attempt to shift focus away from a position that is shown to be more and more precarious and indefensible.

Besides, when all is said and done, if you're going to go down that path, I'd point out that you're the one who appears more the bigot than the rest of us.
You realize that this discussion has occurred time and time again because people keep bringing up the "bloodthirsty/ruthless/bi***" angle to Shiho's stance on the entire situation? I simply say I understand Shiho's position, and then every disagreeing person jumps out and down screaming that I support a psychopathic mentality.

This isn't an argument that has been done this once. It's a reoccurring one which will not stop unless those certain people stop with the fussing. I can live with disagreements but I will not let any one-sided condemnation go on just because the majority thinks one way.
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Old 2013-03-13, 22:02   Link #4604
Wild Goose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I'll get back to the other stuff, but this first:

You realize that this discussion has occurred time and time again because people keep bringing up the "bloodthirsty/ruthless/bi***" angle to Shiho's stance on the entire situation? I simply say I understand Shiho's position, and then every disagreeing person jumps out and down screaming that I support a psychopathic mentality.

This isn't an argument that has been done this once. It's a reoccurring one which will not stop unless those certain people stop with the fussing. I can live with disagreements but I will not let any one-sided condemnation go on just because the majority thinks one way.
That may have something to do with how you present your case, perhaps.

I myself understand Shiho's position. I can see where she's coming from, and can guess to how she came about her position. I understand that she feels she has a duty as the head of the school to carry on the precepts of Nishizumi-ryu. I also disagree wholeheartedly with it.

Is Shiho bloodthirsty? No, she's very calm in her approach. Is she ruthless? Yes, the mindset of victory at all costs as purported by Nishizumi-ryu can lead down that way. Is she a bitch? No, because I have had female dogs, and I must say they were all much more pleasant that Shiho was.

Here's the thing though: you're trying to play the aggrieved party here, but your previous statements indicate that your current protestations to the contrary, you do support Shiho's line of thinking. Hell, you all but said that if the girls couldn't open the hatch, it was proof of their incompetence!

And on the relative dangers of senshado, note what Miho says in the 10.5 OVA: that while the carbon lining protects the interior of the tank from shell penetration, it does not mean that senshado is truly safe. Note the fires and the out of control disabled tank in their early matches.
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Old 2013-03-13, 22:06   Link #4605
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Here's the thing though: you're trying to play the aggrieved party here, but your previous statements indicate that your current protestations to the contrary, you do support Shiho's line of thinking. Hell, you all but said that if the girls couldn't open the hatch, it was proof of their incompetence!
I "might" be the aggrieved party (not that I think of it that way) when people are transferring the "bloodthirsty/bi***" part to me. Hence where all the problem starts from: Some people have a very..... biased view of Shiho's position which is then used to say I'm a problem when I state my understanding/supporting of Shiho's position. That's where the heat started.
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Old 2013-03-13, 22:14   Link #4606
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Okay, basic question here: What would make a tank hatch different from a car door in a submerged condition?

Size?

Seals?

Because I am not seeing a difference in terms of one's ability to open a hatch under water verse openning a car door under water.

Anyone with real tank experiance present? Any sort of training for being sunk in water? Anything that doesn't involve explosives or motorized hatches, cause I don't think they have those on a mid-war Panzer III.
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Old 2013-03-13, 22:29   Link #4607
Sumeragi
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Split hatch. Those are far easier to open even when under pressure than either a car door or the modern day solid hatch, especially when we consider the fact that WW2 split hatches do not seal shut. The sealed solid hatch came into being as a countermeasure against NBC battlefields.
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Old 2013-03-13, 22:29   Link #4608
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Okay, basic question here: What would make a tank hatch different from a car door in a submerged condition?

Size?

Seals?

Because I am not seeing a difference in terms of one's ability to open a hatch under water verse openning a car door under water.

Anyone with real tank experiance present? Any sort of training for being sunk in water? Anything that doesn't involve explosives or motorized hatches, cause I don't think they have those on a mid-war Panzer III.
Sorry, this has gotten ridiculous, people are particularly speculating on that one instance of the "tank in the water" -- if that's the case, answer me this, how does Miho diving into the water change the situation you outline above? Why not call for assistance? You can't open the hatch from the inside -- how the hell do you open it from the outside? If you can open it from the outside, then you can open it from the inside. [Edit cause I got ninja'd] It was either serious -- and therefore Miho wouldn't be able to help or it was not serious -- in which case Miho was derelict of her actual duty.

This is a rehash of a discussion had over 100 pages back. Move on people.

That said, these other comments, particularly calling Shiho horrible vulgar, nasty and other things, obviously portrays an emotional response and an opinion based on personal values -- attempting to hide that behind a veneer of objectivity isn't convincing. You can agree or disagree, cool, but people need to reflect on their own objectivity.
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Last edited by willx; 2013-03-13 at 23:05.
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Old 2013-03-13, 22:36   Link #4609
Ithekro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
Sorry, this has gotten ridiculous, people are particularly speculating on that one instance of the "tank in the water" -- if that's the case, answer me this, how does Miho diving into the water change the situation you outline above? Why not call for assistance? You can't open the hatch from the inside -- how the hell do you open it from the outside? If you can open it from the outside, then you can open it from the inside.

This is a rehash of a discussion had over 100 pages back. Move on people.

That said, these other comments, particularly calling Shiho horrible vulgar, nasty and other things, obviously portrays an emotional response and an opinion based on personal values -- attempting to hide that behind a veneer of objectivity isn't convincing. You can agree or disagree, cool, but people need to reflect on their own objectivity.
Perhaps, but the question did get a reasonable and logical responce in:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Split hatch. Those are far easier to open even when under pressure than either a car door or the modern day solid hatch, especially when we consider the fact that WW2 split hatches do not seal shut. The sealed solid hatch came into being as a countermeasure against NBC battlefields.
Which is what I was looking for.
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Old 2013-03-13, 23:26   Link #4610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Split hatch. Those are far easier to open even when under pressure than either a car door or the modern day solid hatch, especially when we consider the fact that WW2 split hatches do not seal shut. The sealed solid hatch came into being as a countermeasure against NBC battlefields.
Thanks. I learned something.
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Old 2013-03-14, 00:35   Link #4611
Wild Goose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
Sorry, this has gotten ridiculous, people are particularly speculating on that one instance of the "tank in the water" -- if that's the case, answer me this, how does Miho diving into the water change the situation you outline above? Why not call for assistance? You can't open the hatch from the inside -- how the hell do you open it from the outside? If you can open it from the outside, then you can open it from the inside. [Edit cause I got ninja'd] It was either serious -- and therefore Miho wouldn't be able to help or it was not serious -- in which case Miho was derelict of her actual duty.

This is a rehash of a discussion had over 100 pages back. Move on people.

That said, these other comments, particularly calling Shiho horrible vulgar, nasty and other things, obviously portrays an emotional response and an opinion based on personal values -- attempting to hide that behind a veneer of objectivity isn't convincing. You can agree or disagree, cool, but people need to reflect on their own objectivity.
My line of thinking was more towards what I see as a disconnect between what Shiho believes - Victory at all costs (and which Sumeragi supports, on the basis of purity of values and adherence to martial arts principles), versus actual military practice, which is to halt the exercise and rescue the people, because trained personnel are an investment of time and money that is not simply squandered.

Whether or not the hatch could be opened is a side note. The main issue is a clash between a mindset that places priority on victory at all costs, that would sacrifice crew members to hold on to a winner's trophy, versus a mindset that emphasises safety over victory in a field excercise, sacrificing victory for the safety of the team.

Also, I wouldn't call Shiho vulgar; she's quite polite, afterall. I do submit, however, that her school's mindset, paradigm and principles would encourage a rather ruthless mindset. But this is my opinion.
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Old 2013-03-14, 00:40   Link #4612
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Whether or not the hatch could be opened is a side note.
That happens to be the main issue here. The circumstances point to Miho needlessly engaging in a rescue that was not needed in the first place (and therefore, "halt the exercise and rescue the people" does not even apply, and would not apply in reality), and this means that Miho made a grave judgement mistake that cost victory needlessly. Trying to dilute the discussion to a dichotomy of safety or victory is the wrong way to approach the issue.
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Old 2013-03-14, 00:51   Link #4613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Split hatch. Those are far easier to open even when under pressure than either a car door or the modern day solid hatch, especially when we consider the fact that WW2 split hatches do not seal shut. The sealed solid hatch came into being as a countermeasure against NBC battlefields.
Wow, what a grasp at straws... if the split hatches are not interlinked (for speed) so both open when you push on one, it'll make it easier, but this is only a relative advantage. Further, you'll now take longer to get out (if you can at all) because presumably you'll be pushing at one half hatch at a time. And you are still ignoring the problems of gyration, disorientation and even (unlikely as it seems in Tankery, since the protection is apparently wonderful) injuries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
Sorry, this has gotten ridiculous, people are particularly speculating on that one instance of the "tank in the water" -- if that's the case, answer me this, how does Miho diving into the water change the situation you outline above? Why not call for assistance? You can't open the hatch from the inside -- how the hell do you open it from the outside? If you can open it from the outside, then you can open it from the inside. [Edit cause I got ninja'd] It was either serious -- and therefore Miho wouldn't be able to help or it was not serious -- in which case Miho was derelict of her actual duty.

This is a rehash of a discussion had over 100 pages back. Move on people.
More like 60 if you use the maximum number of posts per page. And we weren't all there at the time. If it is rehashed only once, it has had too few rehashes anyway - it is one of the show's cores and deserves multiple rehashes :-)

Sumeragi, has taken the position that the hatches should be quite easy to open, which IIRC is new - I don't think it was there in the debate in P.43-45. However, even if that is true, it doesn't change the canon observation that apparently no one was even trying with any success. So either it is harder than she thinks it is or they are otherwise incapacitated. However, having decided the hatches are easy to open, she is now very hard pressed to say that Miho's help would be ineffective. At best she can insist it is un-necessary.

On the other hand, if we assume the hatches are unopenable, then you are right Miho can't help. But we don't know she didn't call for help, and even if we did, it would still be excusable in the short time frame, and no worse than a mistake, not some fundamental human flaw. Besides, the lag tank commander could have rectified that mistake, plus those tanks do have status and positioning transmitters so the rescue team should be well aware what is happening, so a call for help may actually be redundant. It is only their ability to reach that remote site in time that's dubious - they are shown to be pretty efficient, but this is a hard site to reach.

If we assume Miho's actions have maximum objectivity, then the difficulty of hatch opening and escape would be marginal and her help could be the difference - in that case, can you really fault her for trying?

In our modern societal values, unless the chances of her having a positive influence on the odds is extremely close to nil, morals say the attempt should be made.

Quote:
That said, these other comments, particularly calling Shiho horrible vulgar, nasty and other things, obviously portrays an emotional response and an opinion based on personal values -- attempting to hide that behind a veneer of objectivity isn't convincing. You can agree or disagree, cool, but people need to reflect on their own objectivity.
I can cover it up with objective sounding language like Shiho's apparent values are enormouly deviant from modern societal norms, and that they have much higher congruity with the values at the time of the kamikaze, but what real difference does that make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I "might" be the aggrieved party (not that I think of it that way) when people are transferring the "bloodthirsty/bi***" part to me. Hence where all the problem starts from: Some people have a very..... biased view of Shiho's position which is then used to say I'm a problem when I state my understanding/supporting of Shiho's position. That's where the heat started.
All right, let's get back to basics. Let's assume that you practice Senshado with the same seriousness you do kendo. You even learn how to get out of sinking tanks.

Now you are on that scene. For the first few seconds you think "No sweat. They have a split hatch and they know how." You get on with trying to locate the enemy tanks.

I'll grant you this. If you are absolutely convinced of this, it may be a reasonable decision (from your viewpoint) to keep fighting and leave your tank to fend for itself.

Anyway, a few seconds later, you realize that what you expect to be happening is ... not. And there is no sign it will happen if you wait.

What do you propose as the correct action?
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Old 2013-03-14, 01:07   Link #4614
LoweGear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Okay, basic question here: What would make a tank hatch different from a car door in a submerged condition?

Size?

Seals?

Because I am not seeing a difference in terms of one's ability to open a hatch under water verse openning a car door under water.
While I don't know the policy for tank extractions underwater, I do know the correct procedure for opening car doors underwater: You let the water fill the entire inside of the car in order to equalize the internal pressure of the car to the surrounding water, then you attempt to open the door. Attempting to open the door while there's still air in the car isn't a good idea since the difference in air pressure will prevent you from opening the door.

The only difference I would know of in opening a car door from a tank hatch is that tank hatches swivel upwards, and so more force is needed to force them open relative to car doors that swing sideward.

A more pertinent threat to exiting a tank than the actual hatches though is the internal arrangement of a tank. Many tanks as you would know are cramped, and full of equipment that can bar your path towards the hatches. Many tanks do have individual hatches for each crew member, but the tank's tight fit would still make extraction difficult, and especially so if you're on the verge of drowning underwater.
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Old 2013-03-14, 01:24   Link #4615
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
That happens to be the main issue here. The circumstances point to Miho needlessly engaging in a rescue that was not needed in the first place (and therefore, "halt the exercise and rescue the people" does not even apply, and would not apply in reality), and this means that Miho made a grave judgement mistake that cost victory needlessly. Trying to dilute the discussion to a dichotomy of safety or victory is the wrong way to approach the issue.
Now who's being the bigot? I've just said that this is how I see this whole clash, and you're hammering away at me for disagreeing with your interpretation of the main issue. Temper, temper. ;D

As I see things, your essential paradigm is that whatever Miho did was needless, correct? Bit of a Catch-22 you've placed her in.

Whereas I interpret this as a clash between the two paradigms.

Also, you still haven't come back to me on how you don't consider a tank falling into a river, being washed away and being flooded, is not life threatening at all. Then what would you consider directly life threatening?
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Old 2013-03-14, 01:28   Link #4616
Sumeragi
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@ arkhangelsk: You're forgetting the most important aspect of all "submerged vehicle" problems. Basically, modern cars/tanks seal the doors/hatches, causing a vacuum which helps water pressure be an effective barrier to escaping.

Also, what gyration and disorientation? Checked Episode 7 again, and it was one of the more smoother slide into a river I've seen. It was certainly a situation where any adequately trained tank crew could have escaped without too much a fuss.

As for your scenario: If things went to that extreme, obviously the match itself would have been halted. If it wasn't, I would be the one to go and attempt a rescue.




@ Wild Goose: Frankly I didn't even notice you until you called out directly to me. My "bigoted" comment was mostly focused on Random Wanderer, who was one of those that went with the bloodthirsty/sociopathy line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
Not caring if people die in a situation where there is no justification for letting anyone die... if it isn't blood lust, it's sociopathy.
If I was shooting the gun a bit too early, I apologize for the fact.
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Old 2013-03-14, 01:47   Link #4617
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
While I don't know the policy for tank extractions underwater, I do know the correct procedure for opening car doors underwater: You let the water fill the entire inside of the car in order to equalize the internal pressure of the car to the surrounding water, then you attempt to open the door. Attempting to open the door while there's still air in the car isn't a good idea since the difference in air pressure will prevent you from opening the door.
According to the link Random Wanderer posted, it isn't - you'll drown. (Mythbusters agree, for that matter.)

I'm sure it's possible to design a door that opens underwater. Just have it pivot around its center instead of the side and you're done. I have my doubt on a Panzer having such a door, but what do I know of tank design?
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Old 2013-03-14, 01:51   Link #4618
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It should be noted that crews could escape from sinking Sherman DDs during D-Day.
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Old 2013-03-14, 01:55   Link #4619
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
According to the link Random Wanderer posted, it isn't - you'll drown. (Mythbusters agree, for that matter.)

I'm sure it's possible to design a door that opens underwater. Just have it pivot around its center instead of the side and you're done. I have my doubt on a Panzer having such a door, but what do I know of tank design?
Not sure where on the article disagrees with my statement exactly. In any case, the best way to get out of a car is still by breaking a window as mentioned in said article.

AFAIK the only way to make a car door that can open underwater is to make it a powered door. I'm not sure what you mean by "pivot around its center" though? Can't imagine a door being like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
It should be noted that crews could escape from sinking Sherman DDs during D-Day.
And there were also a good portion of the crews that drowned though, so it's not quite as easy as it sounds.
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Old 2013-03-14, 01:57   Link #4620
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I'm not sure what you mean by "pivot around its center" though? Can't imagine a door being like that.
Probably swiveling door/hatch.
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