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Old 2013-03-14, 20:47   Link #4681
Top Sergeant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
Since the Crunchyroll version can't be trusted to be complete anyway (yes I know it's not their fault, but that doesn't change it, does it?), I have no reason to bother waiting for them.
I know I'll be looking for the first (and no doubt un-subbed) version I can find. I need to see what happens!
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Old 2013-03-14, 21:07   Link #4682
ForwardUntoDawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Just waiting for "Panzerlied".
That song is amazing. I was hoping that they'd have the version with lyrics (like Katyusha), but if the soundtrack is to be believed, it's fully instrumental
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Old 2013-03-14, 21:20   Link #4683
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Not sure why we need to do that when soldiers in worse conditions and worse tanks (Sherman DDs at Normandy) were able to do the actual escape just fine unless they were already too deep (not the situation in GuP).
Other people have pointed out 2 big edges - they are specifically trained and they had breathing kit which drastically increases the amount of time they can use to wait for favorable conditions.

I'll give you a third big edge. They were in DD tanks with enhanced freeboard. Even when circumstances make them sink, they still retain some of that freeboard, so they probably sank at a slower pace and presumably weren't moving to the vertical. That gives the crew enormously more favorable opportunities to simply get out before the hatches are all blocked by water.

And a 4th big edge over only Nishizumi tanks. They can try to use any hatch that isn't blocked by water (they can also use them after the pressure equalizes). Nishizumi tanks apparently had them welded shut.

Do you really think a side-hatch compensates for these 4 rather big differences? You say that the DD crews that drowned did because they decided to hang on too long. We will never know for sure since they drowned, but the way Ep7 played out, there wasn't time to consciously decide much of anything.
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Old 2013-03-14, 21:22   Link #4684
Wild Goose
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Right, had some sleep, woke up early, had breakfast. I think I can come back to this now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Miho being able to swim clearly showed it was not a fast flowing river, thus not as life threatening as people make it out to be.
Okay, as I understand this, your point is that the river was not a fast flowing river, and thus it was not life threatening. But that's a spurious argument - people have drowned in ponds and lakes and swimming pools, where the water is still. That doesn't mean that it's any less dangerous.

Also, as I recall, Miho is not swimming against the current, but with it. I believe those of us who swim all agree that it's easier to swim with the current rather than against it.

I'd also like to share the thoughts of another soldier I'm acquainted with:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minohtaur
In reality if you have a serious accident, especially a life-threatening one, all* training is going to halt and anyone who tried to exploit the situation to "win" would be looked upon as a retard and considered an idiot.

While at NTC our company had a serious crash involving two Strykers (which was largely the fault of the moron OC leading our convoy, not any of our own people) that left about a squad's worth of people injured, some of them seriously. We didn't have any more training that day and part of the next; but continued on down one Stryker (one of the vehicles was a write-off after the crash) after that.

In regards to drowning in vehicles... well, one of the Strykers in our brigade went into a canal in Iraq. Soft bank in that spot, really easy to do. Fortunately everyone in the back could get out the troop hatch. At which point the vehicle commander realized the driver hadn't come out of his hole, which was by then completely filled with water -- Strykers are theoretically mostly watertight, but the impact could easily have popped open the forward access hatches. The VC dove into the driver's hole and pulled the guy out; his gear had snagged and he'd panicked. If the VC hadn't gone back for him right then, he could well have drowned before anyone made a proper head count -- and by then the Stryker would probably have settled into the canal deep enough to be hard to get at. Going into water requires immediate, prompt reaction to stop it from becoming absurdly lethal.

Both the South Korean and Japanese militaries do exercises, including large-scale ones, with ours... I'm pretty sure they keep to roughly the same standards of safety and whatnot.

*even in a very large unit exercise (say, a full brigade) where only a platoon or company is actually involved in the accident, it's quite possible that other units will stand down, pause their training, and a get a class about whatever happened (especially if it was a lethal accident) and how to avoid it themselves.
In case it wasn't clear, he's from a Stryker Battalion in the US Army. NTC is the National Training Center, the home of OPFOR, and the American equivalent to the East Fuji Manuver Area where the finals are taking place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Might be that having been in several accidents before, I tend to have a less disturbable personality.

I do not recognize the situation as life-threatening short of an incompetent crew. Therefore, whatever you say in the statement above has no application in my view. If the situation was actually life-threatening, then of course by the honor code of martial arts rescue should be attempted. The problem here is that we have different understandings of the situation and therefore have different boundaries around where we select our actions.
Y'know, I really didn't want to point this out, since I do try and give the benefit of the doubt, but one really has to wonder: these are high school girls, practicing several hours after school. They're not going to have the same baseline skill and competency level as a tank crew in the regular army, logically speaking.

So I would respectfully submit that the possibility exists that the crew is incompetent (by your standards), and thus the rescue is required. Also, if we compare them to the DD Sherman crews, there is a vast level of difference in the preparedness and equipment: these girls are wearing school uniforms, throat mikes and headsets only, versus the DD Sherman crews who had life jackets and breathers, and fully expected that they might have to bail from sinking tanks in rough seas, as opposed to schoolgirls whose tank suddenly slid off a short cliff.

Why would you expect a crew of schoolgirls in school uniforms, without even helmets or seatbelts, to fare equally well compared to a tank crew trained and prepared for amphibious operations, equipped with life jackets and rebreathers, and on tanks that were made to be as watertight as possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Unnecessary help is just as dangerous as doing nothing, especially when there was no real need in the first place. Slamming those who think so as "sociopaths" is in itself that makes the whole "she should have helped" argument as illegitimate.
Except that, as I've pointed out from what Minohtaur said, when there's a water accident you need immediate response.

Now, by all means, you may feel free to dismiss his opinion on this, but I will again reiterate that ignoring the opinions of American and Canadian soldiers, who have actually participated in fighting, is a tad... short sighted, perhaps?

With all due respect, when have the JGSDF and ROKA actually gone out and engaged in combat for real? As opposed to the American, Canadian and British forces, which have been on active duty for the last decade?

Again, you are free to hold your own opinions, but I will give greater weight to the men who have seen the elephant.

Also, can we please give the whole sociopath argument a good decent burial? It was Random Wanderer who brought that up, and I am rather tired of seeing how you appear to be tarring everyone with the same brush as her. Do note that for the most part we have all been arguing points, paradigms, and with reasoned words, instead of insults (and in my case, experiences of men who have done this shit for real).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Needless rescue in exchange for victory? It was certainly a bad decision. In fact, an incompetent decision.
Well, a strong case can be made for the incompetency of Miho and a great many other characters, but that is neither here or there, and is not the main point. (And just reinforces the fact that they needed rescuing.)

I will add one thing, however. Senshado is practiced as a sport, at the Inter-high. In every sport that I know of, as soon as the refs realise there is an accident, a time out is called. Even Formula One calls a halt to the racing and everyone goes into the safety lap.

Name one, one sport, where continuing to play in pursuit of victory, endangering the lives of your team members and opponents, is acceptable.

Do you sincerely believe risking the lives of your teammates to secure a victory trophy is justified?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
So this still comes down to the idea on whether the tank crew of the Panzer III was in danger or not.

It is clear that Miho thought they were in danger (and Yukari agrees with her, but that isn't unusual). I can't tell if it is a quirk of the translation, but Shiho's statement after the battle about sacrifices are needed for a great victory, suggests those girls were in danger.

Erika's statements don't provide any clue as to what happened as far as I can tell. She thinks poorly of Miho and her style of things, but never really provides anyting useful in terms of information. Maho doesn't say anything at all on the matter. So all we have is some brief flashbacks, Yukari telling the story, and one of the girls Miho rescued thanking her for it in episode 10.

Those flashbacks do include Miho swimming underwater (which was the basis for early thoughs that she was in that tank and had PTSD from it, but those were put down). We see the tank sinking vertically with a corner of the tank in the air as Miho is coming down the cliff face.

We know the trailing Panzer started moving almost immediately to cover the flag tank. It just did not arrive in time. This suggests that there was little Miho could do in her tank to gain victory anyway. The best they might have done is backup after the trailing tank got around them, or knock out the Pravda tank with the 88mm cannon (which the gunner is suppose to handle anyway reguardless if the commander is there or not). How long for the trailing tank to get in front of the flag Tiger? Ten seconds?

Any other analysis on the situation as we can see it?
Not really much that I can add to this, really - that's an astute summation of the incident. Really, given how narrow the trail was, I'm surprised tank 3 was even able to make an attempt at getting in front of the flag tank. And again, you do raise a good point - surely the gunner would have clearance to engage as soon as she saw that enemy tank. Unless Black Forest is stricter with crew initiative then we think. *shrugs*

Something that's also ignored is that the crew were most likely injured in the fall, and depending on how they landed, may not have been in any shape to immediately save themselves. I mean, I fell in a drain over the weekend, scraped my forearm and hit my back and my knee, and it took me a minute or so before my muscles stopped quivering and I managed to painfully haul myself out. And that was a 4-foot drop. If I'd landed on my ankle and sprained it, I probably wasn't getting out without assistance.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2013-03-14 at 21:46.
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Old 2013-03-14, 21:53   Link #4685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Any other analysis on the situation as we can see it?
You've summarised all of the points nicely if I may add my $0.02, all we've seen is a flashback. Said flashback is deliberately grainy, perhaps suggesting that it was to the best of Miho's recollection. Because it's told from Miho's perspective, we cannot ascertain the actual situation inside the tank, leaving discussion restricted to (primarily) reasoned speculation at best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Right, had some sleep, woke up early, had breakfast. I think I can come back to this now.
It's not worth losing sleep over, mate Better to get more sleep and get more psyched for episodes 11 and 12
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Old 2013-03-14, 22:06   Link #4686
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by ForwardUntoDawn View Post
It's not worth losing sleep over, mate Better to get more sleep and get more psyched for episodes 11 and 12
As Lowe Gear and my other bros keep telling me, sleep is for the weak and I shoulda been helping them kill Collectors.

Sides it's 11 am here.
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Old 2013-03-14, 22:13   Link #4687
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
As Lowe Gear and my other bros keep telling me, sleep is for the weak and I shoulda been helping them kill Collectors.

Sides it's 11 am here.
Whereas I desire sleep, I'm not allowed it. The sun sets on this side of the world, and it's going to be a long night: there are too many real world obligations right now I suddenly realise that I might be forced to put off watching those final episodes until the dust settles
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Old 2013-03-14, 22:58   Link #4688
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by ForwardUntoDawn View Post
Whereas I desire sleep, I'm not allowed it. The sun sets on this side of the world, and it's going to be a long night: there are too many real world obligations right now I suddenly realise that I might be forced to put off watching those final episodes until the dust settles
Well, hang in there, mate.

As for me, I think things have finally died down, so long as nobody decides to toss in a Molotv to liven things up. Fascinating discussion, in quite many ways, even if some heads were getting quite heated up towards the end. Though some unanswered points are, I suppose, the price of peace.
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Old 2013-03-14, 23:12   Link #4689
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That reminds me. Someone mentioned Ooari winnng via asymmetric warefare. But typical anti-tank warfare in such situations would require infantry forces or artillery. The mention of Molotv for example, along with magnetic mines and anti-tank rifles would be a way to defeat Black Forest Peak. But I'm fairly certain such things are against the rules.
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Old 2013-03-14, 23:28   Link #4690
Random Wanderer
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
As for me, I think things have finally died down, so long as nobody decides to toss in a Molotv to liven things up.
<_< ... >_>

...No, really, I'd like to stop arguing too. It seems I have a tendency to start these things (or at least, ignite them) by saying things without really thinking of the consequences, and stuff spirals out from there.
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Old 2013-03-14, 23:28   Link #4691
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The actual post was this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForwardUntoDawn View Post
It would seem that the episode is set to release in not more than four days, raising my curiosity to hear from everyone as to what would constitute as a reasonable ending (with respect to both the outcome of the battle between Black Forest and Ooarai).

From a personal standpoint, I believe that the numerical and mechanical advantages that Black Forest possesses might not make the outcome a foregone conclusion: this match clearly exhibits characteristics from asymmetrical. If Miho is able to adapt guerrilla tactics, Ooarai would be able to level out the playing field to some extent. Thus, the outcome would now be dependent on the respective teams' commander to assess appropriate response. From the looks of it, Maho is most at home with symmetrical warfare. Recalling the difficulties encountered by traditional armies against guerrillas, I anticipate a fair fight that will be close.

Ergo, I do not particularly believe that specifics behind that last battle will have any bearing on the outcome of this upcoming showdown, as it was an expository element to explain why Miho transferred to Ooarai.
Basically, using tanks to conduct hit and run operations.
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Old 2013-03-14, 23:38   Link #4692
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Well, hang in there, mate.

As for me, I think things have finally died down, so long as nobody decides to toss in a Molotv to liven things up. Fascinating discussion, in quite many ways, even if some heads were getting quite heated up towards the end. Though some unanswered points are, I suppose, the price of peace.
I'm sure those points will be addressed in due course

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
That reminds me. Someone mentioned Ooari winnng via asymmetric warefare. But typical anti-tank warfare in such situations would require infantry forces or artillery. The mention of Molotv for example, along with magnetic mines and anti-tank rifles would be a way to defeat Black Forest Peak. But I'm fairly certain such things are against the rules.
Probably, because they were designed to legitimately slow down armour and would probably be a pain to modify for sporting purposes. Some, like the aforementioned Molotov cocktail, would be even more difficult to field. Besides that, I bring you this infamous line from Pure Pwnage about tanks and anti-armour solutions:

Quote:
Well, it's like I need a whole army to kill a bunch of guys; I don't need nothing but myself. It's like I'm coming around the corner... BOOM HEADSHOT! It's like that guy is coming around the corner... BOOM HEADSHOT! Send your tank! Cuz' I got frags, I got frags!
The objective of Panzerfahren isn't to annihilate the enemy tanks and wipe out its operators, nor is it to send foot soldiers against armour, so anything outside of WWII-era armour is out of the question. In other words, while Ooarai can't hide in the woods with anti-tank mines and anti-armour munitions, they can employ hit-and-fade using their tanks.
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Old 2013-03-14, 23:59   Link #4693
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Hopefully they come up with something, cause aside from the Hetzer, about all the preview footage has the rest of Ooari's tanks operating together.
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Old 2013-03-15, 00:03   Link #4694
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I hope the PVs aren't telling the entire story; I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Miho and company adopt new tactics in response to overwhelming firepower.
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Old 2013-03-15, 00:11   Link #4695
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All that talk from Sumeragi makes me wonder if the concept of martial art is different between Japan, and Korea+China.


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Old 2013-03-15, 00:40   Link #4696
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Aww, look at the cute lil' Hetzer.
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Old 2013-03-15, 00:43   Link #4697
dacis2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
All that talk from Sumeragi makes me wonder if the concept of martial art is different between Japan, and Korea+China.
EDIT: Derp, I misread the situation. Guan Yu is venerated in China for his martial prowess and honourable nature, repaying past kindness is just like him.

In any case, I registered on this forum to express my displeasure at the implications being raised about a number of groups that I am associated with. In an effort to avoid bringing the discussion back to this, this will be my only post on the topic of the incident.

1. I am unhappy that Asian militaries are being considered less safety-conscious than Western militaries. As a conscript in the Singapore Armed Forces who has trained with the Republic of China (Taiwan) Army, we definitely make safety a serious consideration on par or close to that of our friends and allies in the United States armed forces who we regularly train with. I have heard no indication from my friends in that service that there is a serious divergence in the training safety regulations when they train with the JGSDF or the ROKA either. This is not surprising for several reasons.

a) First and foremost, an exercise is not more important than saving lives. An exercise is something that you can halt and carry on with, or even repeat next week or next month if need be. Human lives, once lost, are irreplaceable.

b) In a conscript force such as the ROKA, ROCA or the SAF, especially in our Confucian oriented societies, explaining to a mother why her son who was forced to serve was left to die in the pursuit of a trivial goal, in this case a repeatable exercise, is lunacy.

c) Even ignoring the human factor, there is a great deal of monetary cost involved. All three conscript militaries pay out significant death benefits in order to avoid strong political dissent against conscription. Furthermore, a tank crew is an asset. An investment in time, money, training and experience. Once again, to squander this resource over something as minor as an exercise just does not add up.

d) These are not applicable in wartime of course, but only due to the simple fact that Miho's actions might have led to additional lives being lost, and if the security of the sector under her watch fell then the Panzer III crew would be dead anyway even if they were rescued. But this is not applicable in a Senshadou match.

Outside of war militaries, be they Western or Eastern, take safety seriously. Both out of concern for human life and also in cost/benefit terms. Even in war, concern for safety is reduced, only because playing it too safe will cost even more lives.

2. As a member of the Armour community and who has served on armoured vehicles (the M113-Ultra 40/50 and the BV206), I am unhappy with the crass treatment being given to "A" vehicle accidents. Armoured vehicles are cramped and lack the safety features found on civilian vehicles. There's a lot of bouncing around even during normal off road driving, necessitating the wearing of helmets at all times while inside, and frequent vehicle overturning and evacuation drills. Despite all this training, fatal accidents still happen due to the nature of the vehicles.

In addition, water bodies always present a danger in armoured vehicle operations. Frequent water-tightness dip tests are required to ensure that the vehicle is ready for fording or amphibious operations, as is training for evacuation while on water bodies. We also wear inflatable life jackets whenever we conduct amphibious operations. Combined with the inherent dangers of armoured vehicle operations, water body accidents pose an additional hazard and many have drowned due to this.

In Senshadou, these safety precautions are largely absent. Given the dangers and difficulties of armoured vehicle accidents, immediate external assistance of any kind would have been prescribed for the Panzer III crew.

3. As a fencer and a rugby player, I am unhappy with how victory in sport is being implied to be more important than human life. Contact sports and martial arts take safety seriously. Where there are lapses in safety they are addressed and fixed. Lapses do occur due to unforeseen circumstances or negligence, but when they do occur the consequences should be immediately attended to.

There were evidently no means in place to aid the Panzer III crew in distress. In light of the dangers of armoured vehicle accidents, Miho's response was warranted.

4. As a first responder (I'm a medic), I know all too well about the Bystander effect. You cannot rely on anyone but yourself to respond in an emergency situation. The failure of anyone else in the area to respond is not an indictment against Miho's response.

5. As a consumer of fiction, I am aghast at the inability to recognize that the writers themselves make it very clear that the philosophy of the Black Forest is reprehensible. None of the other schools agree with them, and the actions of Miho's parents are a clear example of terrible parenting.

In fact, I would consider them to be an allegory for the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy during World War 2, which did pursue a "victory at any cost" philosophy which involved them squandering troops and materiel in hopeless situations rather than pulling back, reassessing the situation and coming up with a new plan.

6. As a human being, I am deeply disappointed. To hear talk of how people only die in accidents due to incompetence shows a clear disconnect with reality. And even taking a utilitarian viewpoint that does not value human life inherently, the cost/benefit analysis doesn't add up when the "benefit" is a trophy that can simply be won again the next time around, and which any reasonable person will admit was lost due to extenuating circumstances.

Last edited by dacis2; 2013-03-15 at 00:59.
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Old 2013-03-15, 01:35   Link #4698
rocket
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Wow, I was going to vehemently agree with Random Wanderer's textual analysis but I think dacis2 just won this thread.

I *was* also going to add this link to a first hand account of how dangerous WWII tanks were when in sinking *for operators who were trained in amphibious tanks*, but again it seems kind of moot.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peop...a1311652.shtml

I would submit that our best course of action is to agree wholeheartedly with dacis2 and move on. It's clear that Sumeragi will not change his opinion and that everyone else is horrified by it and that's that.

I'd like to go back to arguing pointlessly about wether Katyusha is overrated or not please (because I find tsun-loli tankers to be adorable and any excuse to chatter on about her seems like a good excuse).
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Old 2013-03-15, 01:51   Link #4699
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dacis2 View Post
EDIT: Derp, I misread the situation. Guan Yu is venerated in China for his martial prowess and honourable nature, repaying past kindness is just like him.

In any case, I registered on this forum to express my displeasure at the implications being raised about a number of groups that I am associated with. In an effort to avoid bringing the discussion back to this, this will be my only post on the topic of the incident.

1. I am unhappy that Asian militaries are being considered less safety-conscious than Western militaries. As a conscript in the Singapore Armed Forces who has trained with the Republic of China (Taiwan) Army, we definitely make safety a serious consideration on par or close to that of our friends and allies in the United States armed forces who we regularly train with. I have heard no indication from my friends in that service that there is a serious divergence in the training safety regulations when they train with the JGSDF or the ROKA either. This is not surprising for several reasons.

a) First and foremost, an exercise is not more important than saving lives. An exercise is something that you can halt and carry on with, or even repeat next week or next month if need be. Human lives, once lost, are irreplaceable.

b) In a conscript force such as the ROKA, ROCA or the SAF, especially in our Confucian oriented societies, explaining to a mother why her son who was forced to serve was left to die in the pursuit of a trivial goal, in this case a repeatable exercise, is lunacy.

c) Even ignoring the human factor, there is a great deal of monetary cost involved. All three conscript militaries pay out significant death benefits in order to avoid strong political dissent against conscription. Furthermore, a tank crew is an asset. An investment in time, money, training and experience. Once again, to squander this resource over something as minor as an exercise just does not add up.

d) These are not applicable in wartime of course, but only due to the simple fact that Miho's actions might have led to additional lives being lost, and if the security of the sector under her watch fell then the Panzer III crew would be dead anyway even if they were rescued. But this is not applicable in a Senshadou match.

Outside of war militaries, be they Western or Eastern, take safety seriously. Both out of concern for human life and also in cost/benefit terms. Even in war, concern for safety is reduced, only because playing it too safe will cost even more lives.

2. As a member of the Armour community and who has served on armoured vehicles (the M113-Ultra 40/50 and the BV206), I am unhappy with the crass treatment being given to "A" vehicle accidents. Armoured vehicles are cramped and lack the safety features found on civilian vehicles. There's a lot of bouncing around even during normal off road driving, necessitating the wearing of helmets at all times while inside, and frequent vehicle overturning and evacuation drills. Despite all this training, fatal accidents still happen due to the nature of the vehicles.

In addition, water bodies always present a danger in armoured vehicle operations. Frequent water-tightness dip tests are required to ensure that the vehicle is ready for fording or amphibious operations, as is training for evacuation while on water bodies. We also wear inflatable life jackets whenever we conduct amphibious operations. Combined with the inherent dangers of armoured vehicle operations, water body accidents pose an additional hazard and many have drowned due to this.

In Senshadou, these safety precautions are largely absent. Given the dangers and difficulties of armoured vehicle accidents, immediate external assistance of any kind would have been prescribed for the Panzer III crew.

3. As a fencer and a rugby player, I am unhappy with how victory in sport is being implied to be more important than human life. Contact sports and martial arts take safety seriously. Where there are lapses in safety they are addressed and fixed. Lapses do occur due to unforeseen circumstances or negligence, but when they do occur the consequences should be immediately attended to.

There were evidently no means in place to aid the Panzer III crew in distress. In light of the dangers of armoured vehicle accidents, Miho's response was warranted.

4. As a first responder (I'm a medic), I know all too well about the Bystander effect. You cannot rely on anyone but yourself to respond in an emergency situation. The failure of anyone else in the area to respond is not an indictment against Miho's response.

5. As a consumer of fiction, I am aghast at the inability to recognize that the writers themselves make it very clear that the philosophy of the Black Forest is reprehensible. None of the other schools agree with them, and the actions of Miho's parents are a clear example of terrible parenting.

In fact, I would consider them to be an allegory for the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy during World War 2, which did pursue a "victory at any cost" philosophy which involved them squandering troops and materiel in hopeless situations rather than pulling back, reassessing the situation and coming up with a new plan.

6. As a human being, I am deeply disappointed. To hear talk of how people only die in accidents due to incompetence shows a clear disconnect with reality. And even taking a utilitarian viewpoint that does not value human life inherently, the cost/benefit analysis doesn't add up when the "benefit" is a trophy that can simply be won again the next time around, and which any reasonable person will admit was lost due to extenuating circumstances.
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Old 2013-03-15, 02:01   Link #4700
Ithekro
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
Things we know:

(Relative to the present in Girls und Panzers)

Last year, in the finals, Miho was the freshmen, Vice Commander of Black Forest Peak, in command of the flag tank which was a Tiger I.

We can assume she was Vice Commander the entire year and worked with Maho and Erika as they defeated everyone else to get to the finals with their mid-late war German tanks.

From Miho's introduction and Little Army manga, Miho didn't particularly have friends at Black Forest Peak. Or at least since her time in elementary school 5-6 years ago, she's not had fun with tanks until she gets onto Ooari.

One wonders how close she was to her own tank crew. It is clear she cared about her team mates as she went after the fallen Panzer III crew. But it is unclear if she had friends like she has at Ooari or those she had in elementary school.

Miho was likely in Black Forest junior high school's tank program for three years and senior high school for a year before she ran off to Ooari this year.

Do we know how much older Maho is than Miho? The assumption is one year older so that Maho is also in high school, but it is also possible that Maho is in college at Black Forest Peak, which bring up interesting questions about who is elegible to participate in this specific tournament.

Maho was MVP in middle school when Miho was 10 years old. This could make Maho anywhere between 1 and 4 years older than Miho. (Was Miho in fifth or sixth year at age 10?)

Erika comes off as something of a bitch whenever she's around Miho. A smug bitch at that. It is not exactly clear if they were friendly prior to last years finals, or if Erika always was like this to Miho. She's clearly surprised and maybe upset that Ooari is winning at all. Her declaration to destroying Miho's "herasy" seems a bit over the top, but then Erika might be too into Black Forest's style. She's too passionate and not cold and serious like Maho or Shiho.

Maho is sort of the mystery woman. She says so little that she's almost impossible to gauge.

However her time at Black Forest Peak means that Miho has a lot of experiance, but even in elementary school she was put as the tank commander. It is unknown if she kept this position the next several years in high school until given the position of Vice Commander and command of the Tiger in the finals last year. She showed reluctance to be commander of the Panzer IV at Ooari and more reluctance to be Commander of the team over Momo.

Aside from a few individuals, Miho was not so well known before her run at Ooari. Yukari knew her for what she did, and a few others for her family name, but it would seem she did not make a name for herself at Black Forest Peak in the four years she was there.

Miho at Ooari has developed an odd fan following with those she's fought (she did not defeat Darjeeling). It is unknown what the media is doing as aside from the huge screens during the games and the interview with Maho early on, we've not seen much in terms of media on this sport, and certainly no one running to interview the girls after a match.

Little Army does have a potental setup for a sequel series with her friend from Germany being serious about tanks and wanting to defeat Maho. Though defeating Miho once she has her own style would do for her, (tsundere-like that she is). Though bringing that up in the anime might require make in show backstory that one would expect.

It is still possible to lose in Episode 12. But it is likely Ooari will win, but with a photo finish last shot like all the rest of their victories. It is also possible the game will be called for some reason without a victor. Or that Black Forest Peak wins but is disqualifed for some reason. There are many possibilites that will be answered in the next ten or so days.
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2013-03-15 at 02:11.
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