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Old 2013-03-19, 23:11   Link #5041
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Looking at the episode (finally), I don't see much wrong with Kuromorimine. In fact, I believe they should be complimented for being that calm even in the face of a Jagdpanzer 38(t) being right next to them. The Jagdpanzer 38(t) could have taken out any of the Kuromorimine tanks from the point-blank distance, without much of a threat of counterattack due to the small size. The fact that Kuromorimine managed to lose only one tank in the engagement is really something to be complimented.
The Hetzer is smaller, but the distance is short. It is only harder to hit.

Their mental state is unequivocal to those who have watched the show - they even put on audio for those who might disagree with what they see. If that fails to convince you they are panicking, nothing could help.

As to the correct, or at least more correct actions to take, let's fast forward through that whole part about the idea they shouldn't have let it happen in the first place. Maho should have either dispatched a group on a Hetzer hunt (though they might lose a couple in the attempt, getting the Hetzer and eliminating an uncertainty would be worth it - it is the kind of thing you can do when you have more tanks), and/or organized the formation to provide rear area security (if you try and tell me that they need every tank up b/c otherwise they'll lose firepower superiority, I have lots of comments about their training level). At the very least, she should have designated observation sectors to the rear. That mountain is very bare of cover and if she had organized surveillance correctly with even minimal competence the Hetzer should have been spotted in good time. It also seems this wing is disproportionately tank destroyers, which robs it of flexibility.

But all that is water under the bridge and the Hetzer moves up to the side.

Having finally spotted them, they are fortunate because now the Hetzer actually cannot shoot them without pulling a 180 first. They actually started off in the first few seconds with the right idea - they should have pulled the whole platoon back in coordination, used one of the TDs (they already had the cutoff angle) to cut into the Hetzer's retreat path so it has to go forward, then engaged the Hetzer without turning so far Oarai gets easy shots on their flank or breaking up the formation. They might add to that by asking a tank with a rotating turret to support - they are in a tight formation and the closest tank can't be more than a few hundred meters away - the tank would expose its side turret, but it is better than exposing a whole TD flank like they are doing, and they can even be clever by getting the neighboring tank to angle over to shield the tank engaging the Hetzer.
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Old 2013-03-19, 23:14   Link #5042
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Their mental state is unequivocal to those who have watched the show - they even put on audio for those who might disagree with what they see. If that fails to convince you they are panicking, nothing could help.
Maybe it's because I've seen what actual panicking is like. Mileages might vary, as I said.
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Old 2013-03-19, 23:16   Link #5043
Julio C
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Have any of you guys watched this latest episode more than once now? I'm trying not watch it again until the last one airs so I can watch the last two together.
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Old 2013-03-19, 23:20   Link #5044
Random Wanderer
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Originally Posted by Julio C View Post
Have any of you guys watched this latest episode more than once now? I'm trying not watch it again until the last one airs so I can watch the last two together.
Not solidly, but I think I've watched almost every piece of it at least twice, and some as many as five times.
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Old 2013-03-19, 23:21   Link #5045
Myssa Rei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julio C View Post
Have any of you guys watched this latest episode more than once now? I'm trying not watch it again until the last one airs so I can watch the last two together.
Watched it at least four times: one on the live-stream, another on the delayed stream an hour later, the RAW when it finally appeared, then Commie's version.
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Old 2013-03-19, 23:24   Link #5046
Julio C
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Next to Last Exile, this is the only other show that has aired in the past few years where I watched each episode several times. This is becoming one of my top shows in recent years.
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Old 2013-03-19, 23:37   Link #5047
gaiar31
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Black forest ep11
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Old 2013-03-19, 23:38   Link #5048
Cosmic Eagle
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BTW, did anyone else think Ooarai missed a good chance to take out a good portion of the enemy when charging down the hill? The opposition was in disarray to the point that they could just drive past unmolested. If Miho and co had opened fire while charging through its likely KMM's force would be quite considerably reduced.

KMM already screwed up when that Jagdpanther failed to report the JPz 38(t) or take it out when it drove past (track damaged =/= knocked out)
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Old 2013-03-19, 23:42   Link #5049
Myssa Rei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
BTW, did anyone else think Ooarai missed a good chance to take out a good portion of the enemy when charging down the hill? The opposition was in disarray to the point that they could just drive past unmolested. If Miho and co had opened fire while charging through its likely KMM's force would be quite considerably reduced.
Firing on the move is generally a bad idea, especially on tanks that don't have any kind of stabilizing mechanism on their guns. The only tanks of the period that had a semblance of one were the Sherman Easy-Eights (and only for the vertical axis at that), and even then it's still a good idea to stop before shooting.
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Old 2013-03-19, 23:49   Link #5050
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
BTW, did anyone else think Ooarai missed a good chance to take out a good portion of the enemy when charging down the hill? The opposition was in disarray to the point that they could just drive past unmolested. If Miho and co had opened fire while charging through its likely KMM's force would be quite considerably reduced.

KMM already screwed up when that Jagdpanther failed to report the JPz 38(t) or take it out when it drove past (track damaged =/= knocked out)
You will notice that in the confusion, a few tanks nevertheless were aiming at the Porsche Tiger. If they delay the escape to shoot, they might just have gotten something, but at a high risk they would lose a tank or two themselves or worse, KMM might actually reorganize themselves.

I'm going to be specially nice to that KMM Jadgpanther and assume the Hetzer carefully kept out of its limited gun arcs until it is out of good shooting range. No excuse to not use the radio, though.
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Old 2013-03-19, 23:59   Link #5051
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
Firing on the move is generally a bad idea, especially on tanks that don't have any kind of stabilizing mechanism on their guns. The only tanks of the period that had a semblance of one were the Sherman Easy-Eights (and only for the vertical axis at that), and even then it's still a good idea to stop before shooting.
Quote:
You will notice that in the confusion, a few tanks nevertheless were aiming at the Porsche Tiger. If they delay the escape to shoot, they might just have gotten something, but at a high risk they would lose a tank or two themselves or worse, KMM might actually reorganize themselves.
Yes...but it's literally point blank. Not even 100m or something. In fact they nearly scraped their hulls on each other
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Old 2013-03-20, 00:01   Link #5052
arkhangelsk
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Senshado tanks, sadly, have missed at such distances. Since they are racing past at full speed, the bearing rate would be high. They might do it, but they might not.

And if we must complain, maybe we can talk about Anzu not spending a few seconds to finish off that Jagdpanther. I mean, it was stuck, helpless and alone and you have its nice rear with a 75mm/L48. I know your friends are being bombed on the mountain top but surely a few seconds can be spared to kill a threat. Maybe somewhere she still mentally thinks she's in the Pz38 with its 37mm.
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Old 2013-03-20, 00:15   Link #5053
Julio C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaiar31 View Post


Black forest ep11
Which one are the ones Erika and Maho are using?
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Old 2013-03-20, 00:19   Link #5054
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Speaking of which...I can't remember but have they used HEAT before in any of the previous matches? Against simple RHA of WWII armour, it's quite effective equalizer at close range
If you look at the Pz IVD's AP penetrations vs the armor of its targets (a StuG and Matildas), Miho probably used quite a lot of HEAT (Gr38) rounds in the early matches. HEAT rounds aren't that good (Cold War and after rule of thumb would say Penetration = 4-7x diameter, but back then it was at best <1.5x). Still, if you have low velocity guns they can be useful.

As for simulating them, just do what they always do. Slam them onto the enemy tanks and put faith in "carbon".
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Old 2013-03-20, 00:23   Link #5055
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Maho is in a Tiger
Erika is in a Tiger II
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Old 2013-03-20, 00:24   Link #5056
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
And if we must complain, maybe we can talk about Anzu not spending a few seconds to finish off that Jagdpanther. I mean, it was stuck, helpless and alone and you have its nice rear with a 75mm/L48. I know your friends are being bombed on the mountain top but surely a few seconds can be spared to kill a threat. Maybe somewhere she still mentally thinks she's in the Pz38 with its 37mm.
It takes more than a few seconds to reload, and trying to move the vehicle after stopping to shoot isn't a good idea when the original purpose is to cause chaos before their team mates are defeated by the massive firepower being poured on them. I think it's a judgement call on getting the team out than take a (somewhat) risky shot and waste precious time.
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Old 2013-03-20, 00:26   Link #5057
Julio C
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More overkill please. There's room for E-100 and a Maus for Black Forest Peak to field at this rate...
Wow, someone guess it right.
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Old 2013-03-20, 00:26   Link #5058
Ithekro
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Besides, they did take one out on the retreat.
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Old 2013-03-20, 00:35   Link #5059
Julio C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Maho is in a Tiger
Erika is in a Tiger II
That was what I was actually guessing it would be.

Was Miho's previous tank also a Tiger? I wonder if it's on the battlefield as well.
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Old 2013-03-20, 00:35   Link #5060
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by willx View Post
^ Er? I said "there are moments where .. despise" ?? Sorry? I can't momentarily think things?

And my simple point is:

1) Let's say you want to be an F1 driver and win the Grand Prix. You train adequate and reasonable amounts. You get lucky and some minor sponsors give you a car to work with. You have mechanics chip in to help you out. Yay!

2) So, do you deserve to beat the best formula one team in existence that has the best equipment? Even if they're portrayed as being lax?

On top of that -- you claim Oorai is brilliant .. wow. Really? No, just no. That aside, let's put this into a logical argument perspective, from my perspective my premise is I haven't seen enough to make me think the status quo should be overturned. The burden of proof, from my perspective, is on Oorai. That's the difference. Prove the status quo should be overturned.
Well, they aren't perfect, but compared to KMM's showing they are. Besides, they do pull some nice stunts in towing the Tiger in formation, in smoke.

Your analogy breaks down because while part 1 might be a reasonable analogue to Oarai, part 2 simply doesn't fit KMM.

Try this:
1b) By the time you face the champ, your training is sufficient to make you show clearly superior skill indices.

2) Do you deserve to beat the supposedly best Formula 1 team that does have the best equipment, but are shown to be beating poor opponents that are bringing their family cars to Formula 1 racing, and worse, it turns out they can do little more than drive a straight line?

Further, this is not really a last-minute shaft to let Oarai win (yeah, I get annoyed at these too). It is the continuation of a trend that started with Maho nearly losing to a bunch of primary schoolers, through cheap wins (review them beating Chi-Ha Tan school), through getting rolled by Pravda (even if we assume KMM bought some new equipment for this year, their fit for last year still looks to be heavier than Pravda's) last year, through the utter incompetence of Miho's flag tank crew (they didn't even try an engagement against the oncoming T-34s you might remember).

By the time Ep10 rolls around, KMM already has a undeniable trend of underachievement. Do you really think they should win?
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