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Old 2013-03-23, 20:34   Link #5241
Ithekro
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I don't recall exactly at this time, but could Iraqi T-72 and T-55 tanks even penetrate the M1A1 tanks? I know they could penetrate the older M60 tanks, but don't recall if they could punch the M1A1s.

I do know the Iraqi tanks has inferior ammo and armor to their Soviet counterparts becaue the Soviets didn't ship them everything.
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Old 2013-03-23, 20:39   Link #5242
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
So .. okay? Keep in mind that reference to the division commander quote in that speech was to make the point: The U.S. army does not depend on it's technology
No it isn't. The takeaway from the quote is that the technological difference matters less than training, leadership and morale. And that a lack in the latter cannot be made up for by even a significant advantage in the former.

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Where does Eric actually go ahead and says he agrees with that boastful statement? I'm confused, do you personally actually believe your previous statement? If the Iraqis had air power/superiority, a massive logistics system and all that jazz .. that the U.S. would still stomp them?
If Shinseki didn't believe in the validity of his general's point, why would he bring them up in a speech? The points quoted pertain to just the ground combat, if you want to know if Shinseki thought the same thing with regards to airpower, you should take it up with him.

I haven't read up on the Gulf War in very much detail, but I gather that the Iraqis were too incompetent to have ever achieved air superiority even if they were using American aircraft.

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This reminds me of the Green Beret vs. Spetznas episode of "The Deadliest Warrior" where the ex-Green Berets kept talking about their training, their education .. and then they met the cold-blooded, dead-in-the-eyes Spetznas sniper and admitted that they found them scary.
"The Deadliest Warrior" is a silly program, but the Green Berets have roughly equivalent training levels to the Spetsnaz, or at least Vympel Spetsnaz as there are lots of different kinds of Spetsnaz out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I don't recall exactly at this time, but could Iraqi T-72 and T-62 tanks even penetrate the M1A1 tanks? I know they could penetrate the older M60 tanks, but don't recall if they could punch the M1A1s.

I do know the Iraqi tanks has inferior ammo and armor to their Soviet counterparts becaue the Soviets didn't ship them everything.
The U.S. Marines were still using M-60s and they didn't have any more trouble than the M1A1-equipped Army units.
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Old 2013-03-23, 20:43   Link #5243
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
No it isn't. The takeaway from the quote is that the technological difference matters less than training, leadership and morale. And that a lack in the latter cannot be made up for by even a significant advantage in the former.
It depends on what kind of technological advantage one has. If side A has no aircraft and side B does, an extremely large amount of training, leadership and morale will be needed. Any idiot who ignores that will be what the IJA was like against the US forces in the Pacific War.
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Old 2013-03-23, 20:49   Link #5244
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
It depends on what kind of technological advantage one has. If side A has no aircraft and side B does, an extremely large amount of training, leadership and morale will be needed. Any idiot who ignores that will be what the IJA was like against the US forces in the Pacific War.
Well, I don't think that a "significant advantage" implies total incapacity for one of the sides. Are you envisioning a scenario where one side has tanks and the other side doesn't from that quote?
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Old 2013-03-23, 20:57   Link #5245
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Well, I don't think that a "significant advantage" implies total incapacity for one of the sides. Are you envisioning a scenario where one side has tanks and the other side doesn't from that quote?
No, I'm imagining a situation where the tankers think they could easily have won with Iraqi equipment against an Iraqi force with American equipment while completely ignoring all the support they have been receiving from the air force, navy, and general logistics.
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Old 2013-03-23, 20:59   Link #5246
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The U.S. Marines were still using M-60s and they didn't have any more trouble than the M1A1-equipped Army units.
To put a fair word in this argument, at least the USMC tanks have ammo that can penetrate their opponents.
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Old 2013-03-23, 21:02   Link #5247
Ithekro
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Which I think was my point. If the Iraqi T-72 and T-55s couldn't penetrate the M1A1 and M60s used by the Americans, than having the tankers switch tanks is meaningless, as they won't be able to take out the American tanks even if they are crewed by Iraqi tankers.

In total absence of any other armed forces.
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Old 2013-03-23, 21:10   Link #5248
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That's always the caveat isn't? Combined arms is an accepted fact in modern warfare.

The same could not be said for what we have in Girls und Panzer, where we have a bunch of armored units acting without the support of, say, infantry or air support.
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Old 2013-03-23, 21:19   Link #5249
Endless Knackwurst
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This mentions possible disabling hits from 125mm rounds on M1s during Desert Storm, with the main caveats of being at very close range and not against the frontal armor.

There was also a lot of friendly fire on M1s and Bradleys, which does bring up the point that at least KMM didn't manage to cause a massive blue-on-blue during the Hetzing.
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Old 2013-03-23, 21:24   Link #5250
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Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst View Post
There was also a lot of friendly fire on M1s and Bradleys, which does bring up the point that at least KMM didn't manage to cause a massive blue-on-blue during the Hetzing.
Something unknowledgeable people tend to forget, never mind the difficulty of operating WW2 tanks on such a quick pace. Kuromorimine did far better than what most military forces would be capable of in the first place.
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Old 2013-03-23, 21:24   Link #5251
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(Oh, I come here during the military discussion again....)

By the way, I wonder if anime staffs forgot about this cat.

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Old 2013-03-23, 21:27   Link #5252
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Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post
(Oh, I come here during the military discussion again....)

By the way, I wonder if anime staffs forgot about this cat.

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Wherever cool weapons are involved, people will find amusement in chatting about it. Incidentally, which episode was the cat from?
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Old 2013-03-23, 21:27   Link #5253
arkhangelsk
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The kitty's from the OP.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2013-03-23 at 21:33. Reason: Just dbl checked.
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Old 2013-03-23, 21:27   Link #5254
Ithekro
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Most of the things in the OP haven't shown up in the show as shown. We've not seen German tanks in winter camo at all for instance. Nor Shermans on the beach.

Massed Friendly Fire by Black Forest Peak would have made them look far too foolish really.

If the incident reports for the Iraqi tanks verse M1A1s is correct, I doubt the Ameican tankers could do too much against Iraqi crewed M1A1s if the Americans were using the T-72s themselves. Even with skill, about the only saving grace could possibly be the poor aim and morale of the Iraqi, and with the US fire-control computers and being able to destroy Americans in T-72s I doubt either of those things would be a problem for long.

In the absence of air power, artillery, anti-tank personel, and naval support fire.

Actually the absence of all those other forces in Sensha-do make me think it might make for a good table top game. Most tank related games have artillery, anti-tank mines, and infantry involved (along with sometimes air power). Sensha-so takes all that away, leaving you only with tanks, and fully enclosed SGP and tank destroyers. Plus flag rules make it so that even the underdog can win a match.
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Old 2013-03-23, 21:38   Link #5255
Endless Knackwurst
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Just about all the elements of the OP have appeared somewhere, though, so I will choose to speculate that the cat is actually a real cat that Mako recorded her phone's ringtone from.

The more outlandish alternative is that somehow the cat gets into the Maus's turret during the match and disables the entire crew.
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Old 2013-03-23, 21:44   Link #5256
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
No, I'm imagining a situation where the tankers think they could easily have won with Iraqi equipment against an Iraqi force with American equipment while completely ignoring all the support they have been receiving from the air force, navy, and general logistics.
That's something that you'll have to take up with those Army generals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
If the incident reports for the Iraqi tanks verse M1A1s is correct, I doubt the Ameican tankers could do too much against Iraqi crewed M1A1s if the Americans were using the T-72s themselves. Even with skill, about the only saving grace could possibly be the poor aim and morale of the Iraqi, and with the US fire-control computers and being able to destroy Americans in T-72s I doubt either of those things would be a problem for long.
Apparently, the Iraqis were really, really incompetent. I've heard American tankers echo the same sentiments as my quote.
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Old 2013-03-23, 21:51   Link #5257
ForwardUntoDawn
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Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst View Post
The more outlandish alternative is that somehow the cat gets into the Maus's turret during the match and disables the entire crew.
That would truly be a case of a cat defeating a maus. Get it?? Assuming the inside of that 128mm barrel is cool enough for the cat to move through, and assuming that the crew aren't able to load another shell quickly enough, I would find this most amusing to behold and suddenly wish this would actually happen.
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Old 2013-03-23, 22:17   Link #5258
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by ForwardUntoDawn View Post
If they face off against international teams, one of my pipe dreams would be watching the matches being held in their native languages. For instance, facing off against an American team would have the Americans speak English and so forth. Since I'm dreaming, I'd also like to see these teams use more military jargon and have call signs
Two teams that probably won't show up, or would be conveniently left as an unceremonious footnote on the very edge of the screen, would be the Chinese team and the Korean team. They are never happy with anything, and no portrayal would please them.

They would probably face off against the Americans, Russians, Germans or Brits in their first matches and quietly be crossed out without even a screenshot. That way, they can't complain since they did lose to nominally strong teams, while avoiding the political complications of drawing them.
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Old 2013-03-23, 22:24   Link #5259
Ithekro
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Considering that we've only seen tanks from eight of the sixteen teams in the national tournament, that wouldn't be much of a problem. The other eight teams have only been seen as their names on the chart. Though it is possible we saw some of their girls in the gathering when Miho picking a number at the start of the nationals.

Though we've seen nine of the city carriers and possibly more of the school logos.
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Old 2013-03-23, 23:27   Link #5260
Juke16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Apparently, the Iraqis were really, really incompetent. I've heard American tankers echo the same sentiments as my quote.

I talked with a gunner from a Canadian Forces LAV III once and he mentioned how Canadian troops were able to recapture a police station from Taliban forces in about 25 minutes with minimal resistance. The police station was captured earlier in the day by Taliban forces after an 8 hour fire fight against an American unit that was eventually forced to retreat. The cause of the station being recaptured in 25 minutes was due to the Taliban forces smoking hashish after capturing the station and becoming too high to properly fight back.

As well, Americans appear to create friendly fire incidents in the most spectacular fashion because an A-10 has actually strafed an entire group of Canadian Forces personnel before: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2...nfriendly.html
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