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Old 2013-03-26, 08:18   Link #5441
arkhangelsk
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Is it Commie?

They actually said it was a "Medium Tank", though at only 12.8 metric tons, one can forgive the Maus commander for thinking it was a light.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Well, they could always dump Saki. Afterall, she didn't say anything for almost half a year.
Nobody seems very surprised when Saki talked, so she probably does talk more often than once every half-year. The show just plays with us by showing her at silence at all times.

In either case, Saki is apparently a perfectly reliable loader and is just about always the calmest of the lot.

Quote:
I don't think Usagi will all become TCs. I think probably they'll stick to this tank because after all this time they're pretty good at it.
They hadn't been at it that long and they can't just keep getting into shoving contests with opponents' whose intelligence has declined to the level of their tank's namesake. They might as well switch tanks as early as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomexe View Post
I wonder what the future holds for Usagi team. There are no six seat tanks made after the Grant/Lee.
There's at least one. We just saw it.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2013-03-26 at 08:57.
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Old 2013-03-26, 08:19   Link #5442
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
...also, I confess that the only reason I was disappointed with Maho and Miho's handshake at the end was that I wanted Maho to pull Miho forward into a ki-

*Goose is shot with the Maus' gun*
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Old 2013-03-26, 08:42   Link #5443
Myssa Rei
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I think we can just agree that Sume has a vastly different interpretation on this than everyone else in this thread. Lets just leave it at that.
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Old 2013-03-26, 09:01   Link #5444
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
I think we can just agree that Sume has a vastly different interpretation on this than everyone else in this thread. Lets just leave it at that.
How about most people? Cause I'm one of the minority as well!

I'd saying throwing your teammates at enemy tanks they barely have any hope of victory against to achieve a 1v1 duel in a cordoned zone is pretty "ruthless" no? But then again, I never thought of the Nishizumi-style as "ruthless", just pragmatic.

Well.. that was until I saw how incompetent KMM was being portrayed with turretless vehicles chasing light tanks through a city piecemeal .. then I couldn't figure out what the hell it stood for in the first place..
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Old 2013-03-26, 09:07   Link #5445
Wild Goose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
And ultimately the same, which is the point of it all.
Y'know, I have a certain morbid fascination with how you can just tai chi your way out of every attempt to put you on the spot, and twist near everything to fit your worldview. It's not an approach that I favor, but it suits you, I suppose.

But really, if you can't see the difference between the two, there's nothing more that I can say. Afterall, you considered a tank falling into a river to be perfectly safe. To be frank though, I suppose I shouldn't really expect you to understand. Afterall, by your own admission, you see the world differently enough from all of us.

I can understand that paradigm, somewhat - it must be incredibly frustrating to be surrounded by people who don't get it, isn't it? To be always presenting your point of view and then being frustrated at how people are against yoy?

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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
More like I can't think of a better expression at 6 am after over 100 hours of no long-term sleep I was originally going to write "self-justifying".
You're missing my point, which is that if you're going to throw around accusations of that sort, I'd just point out that I can also make a case for the same accusations towards you. Pot calling the kettle black and all that. Shall we refrain from any more frustrated accusations brought on by upset and a lack of sleep?

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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Cute enough, although somehow I see Maho on top, not Miho. Unless they take turns to be on to-

*Goose is shot again*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
I think we can just agree that Sume has a vastly different interpretation on this than everyone else in this thread. Lets just leave it at that.
Yeah, this is pretty much my last attempt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
How about most people? Cause I'm one of the minority as well!

I'd saying throwing your teammates at enemy tanks they barely have any hope of victory against to achieve a 1v1 duel in a cordoned zone is pretty "ruthless" no? But then again, I never thought of the Nishizumi-style as "ruthless", just pragmatic.

Well.. that was until I saw how incompetent KMM was being portrayed with turretless vehicles chasing light tanks through a city piecemeal .. then I couldn't figure out what the hell it stood for in the first place..
As I said on the last page, there is a subtle and significant difference between abandoning your crew to their fate (drowning, inglorious defeat) when you have the power to intervene, and where your team members are have volunteered/are actively participating as decoys in order to buy the best chance of victory for you.

In fact, note how pumped up Ooarai's girls are. They're willing to sacrifice themselves for victory, because Miho was willing to sacrifice victory for them.

Loyalty flows two ways.
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Old 2013-03-26, 09:08   Link #5446
arkhangelsk
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My thought is that by the time they reached the city, shortly after seeing the Maus get blown, most of their tank crews are demoralized and thus showing signs of non-discipline. You might notice that every lousy one of them managed to miss Rabbit Team hiding in plain sight.

By the time that Jadgtiger was lost, I won't be surprised to find that the Jadgtiger's crew were not speaking a human language anymore - they should have shown their final moments.
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Old 2013-03-26, 09:16   Link #5447
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
As I said on the last page, there is a subtle and significant difference between abandoning your crew to their fate (drowning, inglorious defeat) when you have the power to intervene, and where your team members are have volunteered/are actively participating as decoys in order to buy the best chance of victory for you.

In fact, note how pumped up Ooarai's girls are. They're willing to sacrifice themselves for victory, because Miho was willing to sacrifice victory for them.

Loyalty flows two ways.
Let's set the drowning bit aside for now cause that's been talked to absolute death.

..Hm, I think you're cherry-picking a little. Firstly, you assume the girls at KMM aren't willing to sacrifice themselves for victory. Secondly, you assume Miho is willing to sacrifice victory for the girls.

Buh? Sorry, if the situation were reversed, you're saying Maho wouldn't use her troops as decoys in a similar manner? You're saying the KMM girls wouldn't be willing to do so? You're saying having a Hetzer lift up a Maus isn't dangerous?

Yeah the girls are loyal to Miho. Cool. I'm trying exactly to pinpoint what you think is so different vs. one side being the protagonists and the other being the antagonists? The KMM girls aren't loyal to Maho?
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Old 2013-03-26, 09:24   Link #5448
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Y'know, I have a certain morbid fascination with how you can just tai chi your way out of every attempt to put you on the spot, and twist near everything to fit your worldview. It's not an approach that I favor, but it suits you, I suppose.

But really, if you can't see the difference between the two, there's nothing more that I can say. Afterall, you considered a tank falling into a river to be perfectly safe. To be frank though, I suppose I shouldn't really expect you to understand. Afterall, by your own admission, you see the world differently enough from all of us.

I can understand that paradigm, somewhat - it must be incredibly frustrating to be surrounded by people who don't get it, isn't it? To be always presenting your point of view and then being frustrated at how people are against yoy?

You're missing my point, which is that if you're going to throw around accusations of that sort, I'd just point out that I can also make a case for the same accusations towards you. Pot calling the kettle black and all that. Shall we refrain from any more frustrated accusations brought on by upset and a lack of sleep?
One problem here: I'm not frustrated at all. I know people might not want to look at how ultimately Miho has become the perfect Nishizumi.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
As I said on the last page, there is a subtle and significant difference between abandoning your crew to their fate (drowning, inglorious defeat) when you have the power to intervene, and where your team members are have volunteered/are actively participating as decoys in order to buy the best chance of victory for you.

In fact, note how pumped up Ooarai's girls are. They're willing to sacrifice themselves for victory, because Miho was willing to sacrifice victory for them.

Loyalty flows two ways.
Yes, but this is assuming the Kuromorimine crew were either not loyal or not willing to sacrifice their tanks for victory. Any indiciations of such?


Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
My thought is that by the time they reached the city, shortly after seeing the Maus get blown, most of their tank crews are demoralized and thus showing signs of non-discipline. You might notice that every lousy one of them managed to miss Rabbit Team hiding in plain sight.
Michael Wittmann, that "famed" Tiger commander, had even worse aiming in the Battle of Villers-Bocage. This is ignoring the fact that the gun barrel was past the Lee in the first place.
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Old 2013-03-26, 09:30   Link #5449
Endless Knackwurst
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomexe
I wonder what the future holds for Usagi team. There are no six seat tanks made after the Grant/Lee.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk
There's at least one. We just saw it.
We also have this bit of fan art, despite how impractical it is. Better yet, a T29 or T32. Though they're not exactly common vehicles lying around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose
I don't think Usagi will all become TCs. I think probably they'll stick to this tank because after all this time they're pretty good at it. I'm reminded of tales from the 80s, at the RED FLAG excercises, at how there would always be these old guys in F-4Cs from the Air National Guard and USAF Reserves going up against active duty pilots from the USAF, USMC, USN... and the active-duty boys would be regularly getting their clocks cleaned out, because the old dudes from the Guard in their old Phantoms were all Nam vets with thousands of hours of flight time. There's a reason the USN aggressor squadrons and Top Gun used A-4s and F-5s for years, until the airframes eventually wore out and they switched to newer F-16s.
I might reassemble the Rabbit team for matches and OPFOR training, but spread them out for general duties with any future senshado teams... each of them should also be learning the other crew positions besides what they started out with.

We have only seen people take up crew slots other than what they were assigned after the first training match (understandable), during the manga-only Anzio battle (where it made some sense and, well, Yukarin~~~~~~~!), and from the middle of the Pravda battle and onward, when Anzu got serious. Otherwise, though, they should be training the juniors into positions that can replace the graduating seniors.
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Old 2013-03-26, 09:37   Link #5450
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by willx View Post
..Hm, I think you're cherry-picking a little. Firstly, you assume the girls at KMM aren't willing to sacrifice themselves for victory.
Nowhere have I said anything of the sort - in fact, for KMM, given that they follow Nishizumi-ryu, I would opine that it's less that they aren't willing and more that they don't have a choice, as such is demanded by their doctrine. Such is the inference that may be drawn, which I am only doing now because I'm replying to you.

Quote:
Secondly, you assume Miho is willing to sacrifice victory for the girls.
I don't have to assume on this. The show itself says that for us. She chooses to help Rabbit Team rather than abandon them for a higher chance at victory.

Quote:
Buh? Sorry, if the situation were reversed, you're saying Maho wouldn't use her troops as decoys in a similar manner? You're saying the KMM girls wouldn't be willing to do so? You're saying having a Hetzer lift up a Maus isn't dangerous?
Now you're putting words in my mouth.

My read on her is that Maho wouldn't hesitate to make use of decoys - hell, she's already doing that with the Panzer III! At the same time, from what we've seen of the KMM girls, it doesn't suggest to me that they would willingly act in the way Ooarai have done. There is a difference between a man volunteering for danger and a man ordered into danger. Having said that there is not enough evidence to support a concrete opinion on KMM, hence why I comment on Ooarai only.

Quote:
Yeah the girls are loyal to Miho. Cool. I'm trying exactly to pinpoint what you think is so different vs. one side being the protagonists and the other being the antagonists? The KMM girls aren't loyal to Maho?
You're reaching again. I was commenting on something that struck a strong chord within me. Not everything has to be all complicated in depth, you know. That's how art works - it touches your soul.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
One problem here: I'm not frustrated at all. I know people might not want to look at how ultimately Miho has become the perfect Nishizumi.
When the goddamned heir to the dojo outright states that she isn't practicing Nishizumi-ryu but has found her own path, I'm not sure how that is supposed to be the perfect Nishizumi, given that perfect Nishizumi implies, oh, I don't know, practicnig the Nishizumi School?

I wouldn't really call Miho perfect - I think she still internalises a lot of what she grew up with, but at the same time she's chosen her own senshado, and it is not the senshado of her mother and sister, something which the show outright spells out and which you appear intent on ignoring.

But then, this is just how I see it, as a fairly ordinaryish sort of person. Certainly I'm not some black belt badass action girl heir to the dojo ojousama like yourself, so our interpretations will of course be completely different.

Quote:
Yes, but this is assuming the Kuromorimine crew were either not loyal or not willing to sacrifice their tanks for victory. Any indiciations of such?
No concrete indications, but as I posted above, we can draw inferences. (Why yes, I did study law. Wonderful things, inference. Even silence may allow adverse inferences to be drawn against an accused...) I have, however, chosen not to do so in this case, until I was prompted above. The inferences I draw suggest to me that given their background in Nishizumi-ryu, KMM's girls are well aware that they may be sacrificed to the altar of victory, even if it means they have to die in a river somewhere.

It may be a surprise to you, but soldiers - let alone high school girls - don't like being treated like pawns or cannon fodder.

On the other hand, Miho's crews willingly took the bullet for her, because she was willing to take the bullet for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst View Post
I might reassemble the Rabbit team for matches and OPFOR training, but spread them out for general duties with any future senshado teams... each of them should also be learning the other crew positions besides what they started out with.

We have only seen people take up crew slots other than what they were assigned after the first training match (understandable), during the manga-only Anzio battle (where it made some sense and, well, Yukarin~~~~~~~!), and from the middle of the Pravda battle and onward, when Anzu got serious. Otherwise, though, they should be training the juniors into positions that can replace the graduating seniors.
This. Everyone keeps forgetting about maintaining continuity and training the next generation, putting their hopes on a single team.
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Old 2013-03-26, 09:40   Link #5451
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
When the goddamned heir to the dojo outright states that she isn't practicing Nishizumi-ryu but has found her own path, I'm not sure how that is supposed to be the perfect Nishizumi, given that perfect Nishizumi implies, oh, I don't know, practicnig the Nishizumi School?
If Shiho actually said that, I probably didn't see it because I only watched the battle, not the aftermath.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
No concrete indications, but as I posted above, we can draw inferences. (Why yes, I did study law. Wonderful things, inference. Even silence may allow adverse inferences to be drawn against an accused...) I have, however, chosen not to do so in this case, until I was prompted above.
Yes, and I will ask you for where you got the inference. Even in law one needs some kind of indication to infer things from. The fact that you "infer" the feelings of the Kuromorimine crew without any real basis (speculation like "for KMM, given that they follow Nishizumi-ryu, I would opine that it's less that they aren't willing and more that they don't have a choice, as such is demanded by their doctrine" would never be accepted by any court) is not really helping.
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Old 2013-03-26, 09:40   Link #5452
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
One problem here: I'm not frustrated at all. I know people might not want to look at how ultimately Miho has become the perfect Nishizumi.
You only said that because she won. If she had lost you would have gone on about how she should have abandoned the Rabbit team in the river.

And that's the problem with the Nishizumi style. It's only goal is victory, but at some point the family forgot that what they are doing is making them weaker not stronger. If all you care about is the result, you forget how to get to it. Maho followed her family doctrine to the T, but it made her predictable and Miho took advantage of it. There are many things Maho could have done to ensure her victory over Miho, but none of them were tried because the Nishizumi doctrine of brute force and offence wouldn't allow it.

Nishizumi demands one to press forward on the attack. Miho on the other hand, know when to back off at the right time. Miho played defensively, and won because Maho couldn't change her own tactics.
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Old 2013-03-26, 09:43   Link #5453
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
You only said that because she won. If she had lost you would have gone on about how she should have abandoned the Rabbit team in the river.
Not really, because the team had sufficient time to rescue Rabbit in the first place. If they were shot out in the river then maybe I might have thought in the way you think I would have thought if they lost in the city.
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Old 2013-03-26, 09:45   Link #5454
Wild Goose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
If Shiho actually said that, I probably didn't see it because I only watched the battle, not the aftermath.
...seriously?

*sighs*

Go and rewatch again. The aftermath. Where Maho and Miho are talking. Maho tells her that she isn't practicing Nishizumi-ryu.

Quote:
Yes, and I will ask you for where you got the inference. Even in law one needs some kind of indication to infer things from.
You may want to look up, where I edited my post a while back. And yes, you can draw inferences from silence. (At least under British law, which is what I studied.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
You only said that because she won. If she had lost you would have gone on about how she should have abandoned the Rabbit team in the river.

And that's the problem with the Nishizumi style. It's only goal is victory, but at some point the family forgot that what they are doing is making them weaker not stronger. If all you care about is the result, you forget how to get to it. Maho followed her family doctrine to the T, but it made her predictable and Miho took advantage of it. There are many things Maho could have done to ensure her victory over Miho, but none of them were tried because the Nishizumi doctrine of brute force and offence wouldn't allow it.

Nishizumi demands one to press forward on the attack. Miho on the other hand, know when to back off at the right time. Miho played defensively, and won because Maho couldn't change her own tactics.
This. Exactly this. Would that rep - or a Like system like on Spacebattles - existed, that I would add to it.
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Old 2013-03-26, 09:47   Link #5455
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
You may want to look up, where I edited my post a while back. And yes, you can draw inferences from silence. (At least under British law, which is what I studied.)
Problem with your inference is that a silence is not in a void. Silence always has context (as all common law jurisdiction would recognize), of which you have failed to provide aside from pure speculation.
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Old 2013-03-26, 09:51   Link #5456
Myssa Rei
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Yep. Maho said it in the end. Miho wasn't practicing Nishizumi-ryu, but her own way of Tankery. And she was pretty happy about it, especially when you consider Little Army, and Maho's reason for doing everything in the first place..

I can't believe you'd willfully ignore that little scene.
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Old 2013-03-26, 09:53   Link #5457
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
I can't believe you'd willfully ignore that little scene.
I haven't watched it, as I said here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
If Shiho actually said that, I probably didn't see it because I only watched the battle, not the aftermath

Teleconferences can be annoying, since I can't watch anime while being in the middle of several.
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Old 2013-03-26, 09:57   Link #5458
willx
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Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
Yep. Maho said it in the end. Miho wasn't practicing Nishizumi-ryu, but her own way of Tankery. And she was pretty happy about it, especially when you consider Little Army, and Maho's reason for doing everything in the first place..

I can't believe you'd willfully ignore that little scene.
Now now, that's jumping to conclusions, people can disagree and still be cordial. Admittedly I didn't want the end scene either (cause I was at work for 15 hours)

That said, I'm a little surprised, if Miho didn't practice Nishizumi-ryu (ruthlessness, cunning, tactics) .. then someone still needs to explain to me what the hell Nishizumi-ryu actually is?
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Old 2013-03-26, 09:59   Link #5459
Myssa Rei
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Also pretty much both the prequel Little Army and the show itself was building toward that little conversation between the two sisters: that Miho was finally able to find her own way separate from the strictures of the Nishizumi school..
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Old 2013-03-26, 09:59   Link #5460
Kimidori
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Sume have an unshakeable bias in supporting KMM, don't even try to reason with here anymore, it doesn't matter how wrong Nishizumi is, doesn't matter how bad their crew is, her bias will see it as good, no matter what.

seriously Sume, you are the only person view thing that way, you are being unreasonable, you are the most biased person I have ever saw in a discussion thread. find another person see thing your way and I may see you somewhat right. you frustrating everyone here, including me who read you biased argument, reading this thread really feel unpleasant now.
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