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Old 2013-03-26, 10:00   Link #5461
Endless Knackwurst
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Ye gods, people, please watch the whole episode before pulling out your daggers!

Obligatory actual content note: When they're doing the drive through Oarai at the end, they show the main characters and their respective families... and Saori, waving at the guys who were talking about having their restaurants wrecked during the St. Gloriana friendly. Guess senshado still isn't getting her any luck with people her own age.
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:02   Link #5462
Wild Goose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Problem with your inference is that a silence is not in a void. Silence always has context (as all common law jurisdiction would recognize), of which you have failed to provide aside from pure speculation.
Since you want context, let's break down how I drew my inference, based on what we know:

1) KMM practices Nishizumi-ryu.

2) Nishizumi-ryu states that victory at all cost, including sacrifice of to secure victory.

3) Miho's action in saving the distressed Panzer III is considered the wrong thing to do by most of KMM, with exceptions being that Panzer III tank commander (and presumably her crew).

The inferences I draw are thus:

1) KMM crews understand that they may be sacrificed to the altar of victory, even if it risks their lives.

2) KKM crews are not volunteering to for sacrificial plays, but are resigned to the possibility of being ordered into sacrificial play. Soldiers, who have gone through the indoctrination that is part of basic training, do not take kindly to being considered pawns, let alone high school girls.

3) Third inference, which I just realised, is that it's entirely possible that KMM's girls have drunk the kool-aid and thoroughly buy into the Nishizumi-ryu philosophy, in which case this invalidates my points above and I've done your work for you, ojou. Having said that, if you want to talk about how concrete the inferences are, I'd say not so, as these are inferences drawn from what is known, versus the show actually spelling things out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
Now now, that's jumping to conclusions, people can disagree and still be cordial. Admittedly I didn't want the end scene either (cause I was at work for 15 hours)

That said, I'm a little surprised, if Miho didn't practice Nishizumi-ryu (ruthlessness, cunning, tactics) .. then someone still needs to explain to me what the hell Nishizumi-ryu actually is?
Nishizumi-ryu, as defined by Shiho and Maho, is to keep moving forward and attack head-on, and that victory is to be attained at any cost, up to sacrificing your assets, with the implication being even unto death.

In contrast, Maho's senshado is about hit and fade, breaking contact when you can't fight, to reengage from a better position, and understanding that you don't sacrifice your teammates for victory (but if they agree and are willing to take the bullet for you, you don't look a gift horse in the mouth either.)

Or at least that's how I see things.
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:03   Link #5463
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimidori View Post
Sume have an unshakeable bias in supporting KMM, don't even try to reason with here anymore, it doesn't matter how wrong Nishizumi is, doesn't matter how bad their crew is, her bias will see it as good, no matter what.

seriously Sume, you are the only person view thing that way, you are being unreasonable, you are the most biased person I have ever saw in a discussion thread. find another person see thing your way and I may see you somewhat right. you frustraing everyone here, including me who read you biased argument, reading this thread really feel unpleasant now.
Sure, I might be biased, but it comes from experience and knowledge, and at my aiming at the core of the issue: Is getting away from the static structure really throwing away the core principle of Nishizumi-ryu? Ultimately, it isn't.
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:03   Link #5464
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
Let's set the drowning bit aside for now cause that's been talked to absolute death.

..Hm, I think you're cherry-picking a little. Firstly, you assume the girls at KMM aren't willing to sacrifice themselves for victory. Secondly, you assume Miho is willing to sacrifice victory for the girls.
She did put in a great chance spending time to drag Rabbit Team out of the mud.Remember that to put it bluntly, Rabbit Team hadn't exactly been the team's star player and its fire weapons won't even penetrate a lot of the enemy armor. She still saves them.

She could have rationalized it. Maybe if she left Rabbit Team there, they would have been able to restart themselves (the engine did restart while they were towing it, so this was not an impossible hope) and get out without help, maybe even before KMM can hit them. She opts to save them.

Combined with last year, I see no reason why anyone would bet on the can that says "No, Miho won't sacrifice victory for the girls."

Quote:
You're saying having a Hetzer lift up a Maus isn't dangerous?
You really hate that scene, do you?

It was at the limit of the carbon armor - but the results prove that a Hetzer fitted with carbon armor can survive part of a Maus climbing over it for a short time.

Quote:
Buh? Sorry, if the situation were reversed, you're saying Maho wouldn't use her troops as decoys in a similar manner? You're saying the KMM girls wouldn't be willing to do so?
Nice of you to try to force us to prove a negative, eh? Perhaps you should suggest why you think the KMM girls are willing to do more than the bare minimum (on order or maybe battle drill) to sacrifice themselves for victory. OK, maybe Erika will, she does show concern over Maho.

But I'll give you a few reasons why for the most part they probably won't:
1) Jadgpanther-chan didn't even bother to use her radio to warn the formation a Hetzer's on its way.
2) The girls panicked when the Hetzer got into them even though by then for a moment it could not shoot them. Why do you think that is? Do you really believe such a team can be motivated to sacrifice themselves? Do you think they can correctly organize cooperation among themselves?
3) The need to order them to perform even a simple task like shooting at a Hetzer.
4) The complete breakdown of discipline by the time they reach town. You are right, it is quite a sorry performance. If they can't be motivated to conduct basic tasks, could they do anything more?

Do you really, wholeheartedly tell me that you are going to put your coins in the side of them being able to work up the enthusiasm and relative competence? If so, why?

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2013-03-26 at 10:38.
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:03   Link #5465
Myssa Rei
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Spoiler for For size, but the scene in question where Maho lays it straight:


Scene in question. It's almost a frame reference to Little Army. Take note, this is coming from the Nishizumi heir, who's pretty much sacrificed her own happiness just to fit into that expected role. Can't get any more clearer than that.
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:04   Link #5466
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
That said, I'm a little surprised, if Miho didn't practice Nishizumi-ryu (ruthlessness, cunning, tactics) .. then someone still needs to explain to me what the hell Nishizumi-ryu actually is?
The Nishizumi style by this point has devolved into "overwhelming power and armour and crush enemies head on."

This means it is actually not possible for Miho to follow her family doctrine with the tanks she had; a direct attack with her existing disadvantages would have been suicide.

Allowing me to be metaphorical for the moment, Miho is like a river; she flows around overwhelming opponents and strike where they are weak. Note that she spends most of the match running away. Attack when you can win, and avoid when you can't. And finally, only make sacrifices when you can trade true advantages. Every tank she lost in ep 12 was lost for good reason and lead to the final victory.
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:04   Link #5467
Kimidori
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It all bold down to: Miho have never change in how she treat her team, she still a caring commander, using a "non-Nishizumi" retreat and ambush tatic. but before this ep, Sume never say that she follow Nishizumi-ryu whatsoever, but after Miho win, turn 180 degree and said : thaty was Nishizumi-ryu style. saving a disabled tank like PzIII which also drowning? "non-Nishizumi", saving M3 Lee: NISHIZUMI

also :

Images
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Last edited by Daniel E.; 2013-03-26 at 11:49.
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:09   Link #5468
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimidori View Post
Sume never say that she follow Nishizumi-ryu whatsoever, but after Miho win, turn 180 degree and said : thaty was Nishizumi-ryu style. saving a disabled tank like PzIII? "non-Nishizumi", saving M3 Lee: NISHIZUMI
Because you're ignoring the context: Saving M3 Lee wouldn't have been throwing away victory (enemy was trying to catch up, and thus it was a matter of whether Miho could move as fast as possible), while abandoning the tank when the enemy is right in front of you is throwing away victory.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The Nishizumi style by this point has devolved into "overwhelming power and armour and crush enemies head on."
Which brings up the question: Is the devolved form all there is to Nishizumi-ryu, or should we be looking at the core creed? For that matter, is Maho just stuck within the devolved and static structure, while Miho has been able to break through? This is the bigger issue at hand, not just the superficial "was Miho ruthless or not".
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:13   Link #5469
Myssa Rei
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Again, when the Nishizumi heir (Maho), who's been pretty much personally tutored by the Nishizumi Matriarch, says that one isn't actually following the school, but going their own way, says a lot.

Also that self-satisfied smile by Maho. All that hard work finally paid off.

Spoiler for For size:
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:13   Link #5470
Kimidori
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EXPLAIN THIS PIC:

Images
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not throwing away victory? what if KMM catch up which them a bit ealier, and in fact they did, they were getting shot my KMM after get out of the river, what if one tank get lucky and shoot the flag panzer?

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Old 2013-03-26, 10:15   Link #5471
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimidori View Post
EXPLAIN THIS PIC:
I just did: Are you looking at only the superficial elements, or are you getting at the core?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimidori View Post
not throwing away victory? what if KMM catch up which them a bit ealier, and in fact they did, they were getting shot my KMM after get out of the river, what if one tank get lucky and shoot the flag panzer?
You just answered it for me: It would have been (bad) luck for Angelfish to have been hit in that situation.
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:17   Link #5472
Myssa Rei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
For that matter, is Maho just stuck within the devolved and static structure, while Miho has been able to break through?
Sume, Maho is doing this willingly. Little Army pretty much stated in bold letters that Maho is only playing along with her mother's wishes if that's what it takes to free Miho from Nishizumi-ryu. For example, she follows Nishizumi-ryu to the letter because, well, that's what's expected of the heir to the style. Ditto for not arguing against Shiho.

Note everytime Shiho isn't on panel, Maho stops being businesslike and turns into a doting sister.
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:18   Link #5473
Kimidori
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I just did: Are you looking at only the superficial elements, or are you getting at the core?
yeah, the you know deeper than the writer who wrote the script.

just keep your bias to yourself and stop frustrating ppl who try to reason with your bias. you are making this thread unpleasant to read, like you did several page ago.
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:19   Link #5474
sikvod00
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Please put those images in tags, Kimidori.
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:20   Link #5475
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Which brings up the question: Is the devolved form all there is to Nishizumi-ryu, or should we be looking at the core creed? For that matter, is Maho just stuck within the devolved and static structure, while Miho has been able to break through? This is the bigger issue at hand, not just the superficial "was Miho ruthless or not".
The head of the family decides what the core creed is. You can't just randomly decide Miho's style is that of the Nishizumi when the characters in-story disagree.

Maho and Shiho do not believe for a minute that Miho was following the Nishizumi path. What they DID agree was that Miho's path was superior on the day. That was why Shiho finally clapped at the end. Shiho wasn't accepting Miho back into the fold; Shiho was accepting that her own teachings were soundly defeated.
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:21   Link #5476
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
Sume, Maho is doing this willingly. Little Army pretty much stated in bold letters that Maho is only playing along with her mother's wishes if that's what it takes to free Miho from Nishizumi-ryu.
And that's the problem. As Vallen Chaos Valiant noted, Nishizumi-ryu by this point has devolved into "overwhelming power and armour and crush enemies head on". Just as the many styles of karate are all essentially branched from the core principles, wouldn't it be the truth to say that Miho has reached the core creed of Nishizumi-ryu instead of Maho and Shiho?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimidori View Post
yeah, the you know deeper than the writer who wrote the script.
Yes, because you know what the scriptwriter was thinking.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimidori View Post
just keep your bias to yourself and stop frustrating ppl who try to reason with your bias. you are making this thread unpleasant to read, like you did several page ago.
I'll be blunt: If people can't deal with disagreements, it's their problem.
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:24   Link #5477
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
And that's the problem. As Vallen Chaos Valiant noted, Nishizumi-ryu by this point has devolved into "overwhelming power and armour and crush enemies head on". Just as the many styles of karate are all essentially branched from the core principles, wouldn't it be the truth to say that Miho has reached the core creed of Nishizumi-ryu instead of Maho and Shiho?
We can't just make up the core creed like that. What Miho does has nothing to do with her family's current fighting style. The only similarity is that she wanted to win, which is really the same as any other team.
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:30   Link #5478
Myssa Rei
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Vallen: Actually given a choice, Maho would rather not be doing this Nishizumi heir thing (Little Army again), if not for the fact that if she doesn't, Miho will be stuck with the role instead. So gotta keep the mum distracted and happy.

As for Nishizumi-ryu, the current paradigm is likely what (at least) the past two generations of Nishizumis have known. Devolved or no, it IS the creed... and as Maho succinctly observes, Miho's current style is very far from it.
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:33   Link #5479
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Because you're ignoring the context: Saving M3 Lee wouldn't have been throwing away victory (enemy was trying to catch up, and thus it was a matter of whether Miho could move as fast as possible), while abandoning the tank when the enemy is right in front of you is throwing away victory.
Well, so according to you, saving the M3 was only an extra risk, and so it was acceptable to save them by Nishizumi's rules? Hmm, don't remember you pointing out how Nishizumi that action was last week...

Fine. In that case, saving the crew was also only an extra risk. In fact, a much lower risk. As you say, the enemy is right in front. The gunner shouldn't need the commander's assistance to see them. The gunner and loader could have completed the engagement cycle by themselves. It is reasonable to assume they can at least be motivated to save their own butts. The risk was minimal to nil. By your logic, it should be most acceptable.

And yet, we know of Mother and Erika's wonderful reaction to both. 'Nuff said.
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:33   Link #5480
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
We can't just make up the core creed like that. What Miho does has nothing to do with her family's current fighting style. The only similarity is that she wanted to win, which is really the same as any other team.
What's the core creed? Victory above all else.
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