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Old 2013-03-26, 10:36   Link #5481
Ridwan
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All this persistent gangfest on one person is just bemusing, to say the least.
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:41   Link #5482
Wild Goose
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You know what, I've thinking about this a fair bit. And I've come to a decision. Fuck this shit. Fuck this shit so hard.

There is no reasoning with this ojousama up in an ivory tower in her own world, who perpetually shifts goalposts and twists words to suit her viewpoints, and I have had enough of this pointless discussion for one night, particularly when I'm dealing with a pot that's calling kettles black.

By the way my inferences and context that you wanted are on page 274, you missed them, ojou.

So think whatever you want to think, that's up to you all, but if you want your opinions respected you will recognise that other people disagree with you and just maybe, just maybe, all of these people have a point, given that there are only what, two people in this thread with the same opinion?

Sorry for the lack of usual charming, well articulated Goose, but I've pretty much had it for one day.
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:43   Link #5483
Sol Falling
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It is kind of tough for me to buy into Kuromorimine's incompetence as a genuine expression of Nishizumi-ryu. In the first place, Maho's sacrifice (as exposited via Little Army) could be interpreted as simply with regards her mother's interpretation of Nishizumi-ryu, which nothing particularly hints towards being a genuine interpretation true to the original precepts. Let's say Maho grows old enough that Shiho retires and Maho takes on the mantle as the true head of the Nishizumi-ryu. Would Maho then be free to adopt a more fluid approach towards "victory at any cost"? Would that constitute a betrayal of the original school or her heritage?

Isn't the issue of Miho's style being true to Nishizumi-ryu being conflated around two issues? One is ruthlessness versus non-ruthlessness, i.e. a resolution to sacrifice, and accept the sacrifice of, comrades for the sake of victory. The other is simply adaptability and the competence/pragmatism to effectively carry out tactics appropriate for the situation. Was Kuromorimine's loss/Ooarai's victory on account of the former or the latter? Is the latter really something Nishizumi-ryu must fundamentally reject? And if it is not, is the position several posters have been suggesting Miho takes on the former, i.e. "it is genuinely okay to give up on victory for the sake of your comrades", really any more sensible or morally superior to Nishizumi-ryu's take on it?
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:44   Link #5484
Myssa Rei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
What's the core creed? Victory above all else.
Err, given how Sensha-do is also a sport, obviously you'd want to win. However, as Miho implies very early in the show, there's no fun in the Nishizumi school (St. Glorianna, the stereotypical stuffy British school, calls it boring), and it does a lot of things that a sensitive soul like Miho would obviously question.

Also, we're forgetting the other half of the Nishizumi creed as expounded by Shiho: Never stop moving forward... which presently seems to have been interpreted VERY narrowly.
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:46   Link #5485
00Coyote
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Regarding the Hetzer x Maus action.

The Hetzer wasn't in danger of being crushed with just the Maus on the front sloped armor. While 200 tons is freaking heavy, 2"+ of steel can carry a lot of weight. Using an absurdly crude simplification, you could lift the Maus with 4 cables 2" in diameter, the front armor of the Hetzer is probably 60" wide by 2.3" thick, that doesn't immediately set off my structural failure senses. Plus I'm not going to break out the finite element analysis just to see if GuP physics matches up with real life.

The road wheels on the Hetzer should have been toast from the first impact though, and all the Maus had to do to get out of that trap was back up...
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:48   Link #5486
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
What's the core creed? Victory above all else.
There is more than one commandment in the Nishizumi school. One other the show noted, is to never retreat.

By your current interpretation, Nishizumi style is so shallow that even the Pravda team could be considered followers of it. After all, they won last year, does that make them followers of Nishizumi doctrine?
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:52   Link #5487
chupiler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post
Watched ep.12 subbed version. Picked up something interesting.

- Wait, Type-89 is heavy tank??? .....translation error???
Is that what the subbed ver. had it at? It's a medium tank. Probably misheard "chuu" (mid) for "juu" (heavy). Still, that's a surprising error, since you'd figure the translator would have the same reaction as you.
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:55   Link #5488
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
There is more than one commandment in the Nishizumi school. One other the show noted, is to never retreat.

By your current interpretation, Nishizumi style is so shallow that even the Pravda team could be considered followers of it. After all, they won last year, does that make them followers of Nishizumi doctrine?
And by everyone else's interpretation Nishizumi style is nothing but buy expensive tanks and attack mindlessly?
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:58   Link #5489
Wild Goose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chupiler View Post
Is that what the subbed ver. had it at? It's a medium tank. Probably misheard "chuu" (mid) for "juu" (heavy). Still, that's a surprising error, since you'd figure the translator would have the same reaction as you.
That group's quality control is, shall we say, a bit loose. It also doesn't help that on their blog they state that they despise and are contemptuous of this show, hence the German, which they claim is the only thing that makes subbing bearable for them.
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Old 2013-03-26, 10:58   Link #5490
Myssa Rei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
And by everyone else's interpretation Nishizumi style is nothing but buy expensive tanks and attack mindlessly?
More like "Buy the BIGGEST hammer you can find and, you know what, lets get a hundred of them, and use them to knock on everyone else's toes! Because we CAN!" Yes, a gross oversimplification, but given what we've seen, it sure seems that the present Nishizumi School line of thinking favors the "bigger stick" approach.
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Old 2013-03-26, 11:02   Link #5491
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
And by everyone else's interpretation Nishizumi style is nothing but buy expensive tanks and attack mindlessly?
Having the heaviest tanks and attack relentlessly, yes. One can interpret it as a positive or a negative.

You can translate that into normal sports in terms of having a purely offensive lineup with no regard for defence at all. It only works in Senshado because tanks can be so different from one another, while a human sportsman can't realistically be five times stronger than the opposition.

The idea is sound, it's just that if that's all you have, you can get hard-countered by those who plan around your strategies.
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Old 2013-03-26, 11:02   Link #5492
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
That group's quality control is, shall we say, a bit loose. It also doesn't help that on their blog they state that they despise and are contemptuous of this show, hence the German, which they claim is the only thing that makes subbing bearable for them.
I guess the question would be...

Why are they subbing it then?

Oorai did good, and baited KMM into entering urban combat, since that was their only chance of survival. The strategic position of the Tiger P too, was quite brilliant.

- Tak
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Old 2013-03-26, 11:05   Link #5493
Wild Goose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
I guess the question would be...

Why are they subbing it then?

- Tak
I actually asked that question on their blog. Never did get a staright answer, just lots of indignation. Then they turned the heat up when I suggested fansub group H did a better job. Fortunately I had lots of cold water nearby.
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Old 2013-03-26, 11:09   Link #5494
Tak
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Out of curiosity, which group is this?

- Tak
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Old 2013-03-26, 11:11   Link #5495
Myssa Rei
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Hiryuu, who's the only group doing the OVAs too, by the way. The only problem with them is I think they're the ones who use Tankwando for Senshado, which is... awkward.
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Old 2013-03-26, 11:11   Link #5496
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
Err, given how Sensha-do is also a sport, obviously you'd want to win. However, as Miho implies very early in the show, there's no fun in the Nishizumi school (St. Glorianna, the stereotypical stuffy British school, calls it boring), and it does a lot of things that a sensitive soul like Miho would obviously question.

Also, we're forgetting the other half of the Nishizumi creed as expounded by Shiho: Never stop moving forward... which presently seems to have been interpreted VERY narrowly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
More like "Buy the BIGGEST hammer you can find and, you know what, lets get a hundred of them, and use them to knock on everyone else's toes! Because we CAN!" Yes, a gross oversimplification, but given what we've seen, it sure seems that the present Nishizumi School line of thinking favors the "bigger stick" approach.
Important parts are the bolded parts. Basically, do we say that the current narrow interpretation of Nishizumi-ryu is all there is to it, or should we be looking at the bigger picture of the core creed?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
You know what, I've thinking about this a fair bit. And I've come to a decision. Fuck this shit. Fuck this shit so hard.

There is no reasoning with this ojousama up in an ivory tower in her own world, who perpetually shifts goalposts and twists words to suit her viewpoints, and I have had enough of this pointless discussion for one night, particularly when I'm dealing with a pot that's calling kettles black.

By the way my inferences and context that you wanted are on page 274, you missed them, ojou.

So think whatever you want to think, that's up to you all, but if you want your opinions respected you will recognise that other people disagree with you and just maybe, just maybe, all of these people have a point, given that there are only what, two people in this thread with the same opinion?

Sorry for the lack of usual charming, well articulated Goose, but I've pretty much had it for one day.
Unfortunately, I've always stuck to my guns without moving at all. I cannot say the same for others.
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Old 2013-03-26, 11:12   Link #5497
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
You can translate that into normal sports in terms of having a purely offensive lineup with no regard for defence at all. It only works in Senshado because tanks can be so different from one another, while a human sportsman can't realistically be five times stronger than the opposition.
What made the idea truly unsound is that it seems increasingly, they are not even training said "offensive lineup". They could probably have saved themselves if they had...
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Old 2013-03-26, 11:12   Link #5498
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
More like "Buy the BIGGEST hammer you can find and, you know what, lets get a hundred of them, and use them to knock on everyone else's toes! Because we CAN!" Yes, a gross oversimplification, but given what we've seen, it sure seems that the present Nishizumi School line of thinking favors the "bigger stick" approach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Having the heaviest tanks and attack relentlessly, yes. One can interpret it as a positive or a negative.

You can translate that into normal sports in terms of having a purely offensive lineup with no regard for defence at all. It only works in Senshado because tanks can be so different from one another, while a human sportsman can't realistically be five times stronger than the opposition.

The idea is sound, it's just that if that's all you have, you can get hard-countered by those who plan around your strategies.
This still doesn't explain to me how the Nishizumi Style became famous to begin with.. Unless they always had the best tanks and therefore did absolutely nothing but always use the best hardware and otherwise be completely incompetent. That said, even if that was their creed, why the hell do other people respect them as being the best? ..Suspend disbelief, suspend disbelief..

Anyways, if this is all true, and there is no other explanation .. then the Nishizumi-style has truly been reduced to absurdity as a strawman villain .. a speed bump for the Oorai girls to ascend. It just seems so ridiculous..

@arkhangelsk -- Yes, I hate the scene with the Maus! Stop picking on the poor little Maus! He just wants to give you a hug!
@Tak -- Enemy hiding in an urban location with lots of buildings? LEVEL IT. TURN IT INTO A SEE OF FIRE! FLATTEN IT AND THEN ENGAGE!!!!
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Old 2013-03-26, 11:14   Link #5499
Ithekro
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Nishizumi style: "Forward to Victory, at all costs."

Miho doesn't follow this. She very rarely goes foward. Her style is a mix of "hit and fade", baiting, and full on delaying actions. Even full on retreat.

Most of her team went with delaying actions and hit and fade. The rest went to defensive actions. They lost none in an offensive action.

The only forward actions they took in the battle were, the retreat from the hill, and the trapping of the Maus, and both were faints.
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Old 2013-03-26, 11:16   Link #5500
Myssa Rei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Basically, do we say that the current narrow interpretation of Nishizumi-ryu is all there is to it, or should we be looking at the bigger picture of the core creed?
Unfortunately, until the time Mizushima expounds on the nitty-gritty of Nishizumi-ryuu, what we have pretty much defines the school for us. And frankly, the interpretation of Nishizumi-ryuu as inflexible, intractable, and generally stuffy (read: not fun) has been consistent in all the media related to the series so far (Little Army, Yukari's manga, and Saori's LN).

willx: You seem to have trouble connecting the dots that the rest of us easily see connections on. Also read Little Army, it helps quite a bit.
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