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Old 2013-03-30, 07:34   Link #5861
LoweGear
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So they're translating the rest of the Yukari Corner snips. And this particular line came up from the 2nd seminar:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BD/DVD Special 2
Not having High Explosive rounds would be the fault of the British Army Brass!

The tank is innocent!
Oh Yukari, you say such heartwarming things
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Old 2013-03-30, 07:40   Link #5862
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
You are probably right that the bureaucrats usually don't look that closely.

However, let's get back to the little revelation they apparently have an "Armored Department" (kikouka) instead of just a Tankery elective. Which means that one of their specialties is professional tankers, which are presumably supplied to the SDF and Senshado organizations upon graduation. Their Sensha-do team should be a cut better than all the others just as we expect a Professional team to be significantly better than an amateur one.

Their loss this year (definitely) and last year (almost certainly, considering they still apparently had the superior fit), is a symptom of very poor training in their tankers, and thus, their alumni. Since these didn't just happen all of a sudden, but is a multi-year process, it can be inferred (unless the SDF and Senshado organizations have no standards at all) that complaints about the declining alumni quality have been swimming around for at least several years.

However, from what little we can see in the show Nishizumi students have infiltrated in substantial strength in the SDF (Chouno Ami being one) and presumably Senshado organizations. That would create a base of support that can act as "authorities" to muddle the waters and prevent the bureaucrats (who probably don't know a PzI from a Maus) from getting a true picture even if they want to. As long as KMM wins in Senshado by hook-or-crook, their backers can use that as evidence they are still All Right.

But now we have these two losses. No matter how you write it, they had been winning and now they've lost two years straight. Last year I suspect they blew up Miho's rescue for all was it worth to muddy the waters but this year there's not even that excuse.

Will even bureaucrats investigate more closely? Will the critics' voices be paid more heed? I suspect yes. At the very least, the balance of power would shift.
My point is, while you call it a "loss", I call it "finishing second best nationally". It's not as glorious as "first", certainly, but it's not the abysmal performance you describe.

Besides:
- "a cut above" isn't the same as "invincible". Sometimes teams that, on paper, should absolutely win, lose.
- is KMM really worse than the other tankery teams?

Quote:
An armored department that doesn't produce the goods is an obvious waste of money. And that's a big, obvious risk factor for KMM that as far as we know is not shared by others. Maybe it has redeeming strengths elsewhere? Maybe another school has an even bigger weakness? I don't know. All I know is that is KMM has this big weakness.
=
Well, I could be wrong. Maybe there really is enough money to keep everyone running. I won't mind that outcome.

Still, so we can get on to the next phase rather than going back and forth unproductively, allow me to ask "It is clear that many of you think that no school should (or have to) be closed. I propose we agree to disagree on this issue.

However, given that one of the schools will have to replace Oarai on the chopping block, based on the horribly limited amount of information we have, what school do you think it will be?"
Not the one with alumni peppering the upper ranks of the military, and possibly the civil administration... (It's implied KMM is a rich, prestigious school, and has been for a while.)
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Old 2013-03-30, 07:47   Link #5863
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Besides, two losses are hardly grounds for considering closing down the school, especially when said losses occurred at the Finals. Said considerations only come if KMM has been consistently performing poorly with every match with nothing to show for it. While we, as the viewers, may see their weaknesses in the last two episodes and use it as evidence of their quality, it's still a fact that KMM steamrolled through their opposition in the previous matches and managed to make it to the finals, which 14 out of the 16 Senshado schools in the tournament failed to do.
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Old 2013-03-30, 07:59   Link #5864
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Besides, two losses are hardly grounds for considering closing down the school, especially when said losses occurred at the Finals. Said considerations only come if KMM has been consistently performing poorly with every match with nothing to show for it. While we, as the viewers, may see their weaknesses in the last two episodes and use it as evidence of their quality, it's still a fact that KMM steamrolled through their opposition in the previous matches and managed to make it to the finals, which 14 out of the 16 Senshado schools in the tournament failed to do.
Not only that, but Oarai didn't even participate in the tournaments for 20 years, and it took this long to be considered for closing down. How many losses have the other schools had? Certainly at least 10 and they're still active schools.

No schools are being shut down, especially Black Forest.

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Old 2013-03-30, 09:19   Link #5865
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkS00N View Post
I will put my bet on Yogurt or the school that uses Japanese tanks...
I agree based on our very limited information that Chi-Ha tan school with a Japanese identity in Japan also seems like a top-runner - I have it lined up right after KMM myself.

And yeah, it makes sense to piss off the Bulgarians (Yoghurt) before the Belgians (Waffle)

Quote:
It doesn't make sense that a champion school striped down for only two loses, no matter how silly it might seems...
Afterall, the ration of winning vs losing is pretty much weight on winning rate, especially when these defeats are in finals, unlike Saunder for example who lost in preliminary...
It is not so much the two losses that are important by themselves (though they are embarassing enough), but that they force a look at the efficiency of KMM's armor training programs that before were likely masked by their continuing wins. Sharp decreases in win rate cause more detailed investigation.

Quote:
With diminishing student, no particular specialty, Oarai is waste of budget...
How can a school still with 9000 people in its normal department-I alone be considered a waste of budget? I can accept a theory that its cost-efficiency might be somewhat lower, but "waste of budget?"

The way some of you paint poor Oarai, winning the contest won't save them for more than one year.

Quote:
Also, remember that there are 100.000 people in KMM...
There are a lot more people to move and if KMM shut down there are a lot more jobless people compare to Oarai's 30.000 people...
Is it really beneficial to close KMM?
I see that its raison d'etre (tankers), which realistically would have cost a pretty penny to train up, are not reaching standard. Surely, that's a much better reason to torpedo a school than mere clubs not placing well in national competitions which seems to be poor Oarai's biggest fault (yeah OK they lack a national theme but that was clear from the start).

Worse, it would seem that they tried to cover up their deficiencies by sending up bigger and bigger budget requests (ending with our Maus) to buy more equipment to so overheavily power the opponent they can't lose, until for 2 straight years even this didn't save them. Which their friends in government apparently approved. Money that could, among other uses, have gone to other Tankery electives and thus increase their competitiveness and lead to an increase in the overall quality of High School Tankery in Japan.

Not achieving their raison d' etre. Budget requests that are arguably fraudulent and at the very least wasteful. They'll have to have some very big redeeming advantages before I'll take them off #1 on the close-down list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless Soul View Post
Not only that, but Oarai didn't even participate in the tournaments for 20 years, and it took this long to be considered for closing down. How many losses have the other schools had? Certainly at least 10 and they're still active schools.

No schools are being shut down, especially Black Forest.
For one thing, the other schools as far as we know, don't seem to have Tankers as their raison d e'tre. For another thing, their tank fleets are not nearly as luxurious. Less equipment, fewer expectations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Besides:
- "a cut above" isn't the same as "invincible". Sometimes teams that, on paper, should absolutely win, lose.
It is true that even a good team can have a bad day. However, unlike most sports, they actually have one free cut already - their luxurious Panzergruppe. With two cuts we are running out of excuses.

Quote:
- is KMM really worse than the other tankery teams?
OK, my scoring:
Pravda actually, depending on how you interpret the evidence, is quite a precise team by day or when they remember to preserve their night vision. Two precise HE blasts in the perfect spots to blast a PzIII off the road last year along with a hit on the Tiger (that's three attacks getting desired effects in a row, a rarity in Senshado). You might also notice that they managed to shoot the 75mm off the M3 (effectively a F-kill), a track off the StuG (a M-kill PLUS a F-kill along all but a few degrees on either side) and jammed the turret traverse of the PzIV (this would end any attempt to aim, thus also a F-kill). Basically, while Oarai didn't lose tanks, their firepower was neutralized, which maximized the chances Katyusha can get all Oarai to surrender in a united dogeza (it'll be less impressive if half the vehicles were towed off the scene with their crews because they were white flagged).

Their gunnery fell off in the 2nd half, most likely because the fools wiped their night vision out with their bonfires - when you can't see well, you can't aim (from the way the MG fire was going uncorrected, one cannot help but suspect many of them were barely seeing at all) ... it didn't help that Anzu's team was a maneuvering genius that day. And they have Nonna, of course. Plus at the very least, the IS-2 (rated speed 37km/h) was actually closing the range slowly with the Type 89 (24km/h) on the snow, which was a better showing from the driver than KMM's Tiger II (40km/h) and Panthers (46km/h) who were on paved roads (which should have reduced Shinobu's driving skill advantage to the bare minimum in favor of theoretical speed) yet still let the Type 89 dance all over them.

Despite their failure in discipline to get off the bonfires in good time (which the commander or vice commander should have corrected), they are too good a team for Katyusha to waste with her dogeza plan. You can actually guess how they won last year. (When one thinks they are going to go up against Kuromorimine without the benefit of Miho's creativity and Oarai's fleet of super-drivers, it makes sense that they practised shooting off armament to deal with BF's more heavily armored vehicles. Who is compensating for who, really?)

Saunders' average gunners didn't manage much, but at least they had Naomi and their tankers didn't panick like idiots when the enemy passed through them. Alice is just a weak link. If they had KMM's equipment, they could stuff Naomi into the King Tiger or Jadgtiger and let her win the battle for them.

St. Glorianna's gunnery is well an inch lower than KMM (because Erika's Tiger II could actually aim and all the others basically can't). No elite gunner revealed. Still, at least they seem to retain their composure better. KMM v SG must have been a yawner for the crowd. Neither of them are too imaginative and both sides' gunnery are abominable. I suspect KMM eventually won because of Erika's tank.

Heck, if you believe the manga, even Anchovy's tank was a pretty good shot!

So, where do we put KMM in terms of quality?

Still, you could be right. I am thinking that it'll be reasonable that these losses might just finally penetrate KMM's wall of connections. But maybe you are right and they could protect KMM for one more round.
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Old 2013-03-30, 09:38   Link #5866
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Still, you could be right. I am thinking that it'll be reasonable that these losses might just finally penetrate KMM's wall of connections. But maybe you are right and they could protect KMM for one more round.
If what I've explained so far doesn't make you understand nothing will. It'll take at least a decade of abyssal performance to even reach halfway of your delusional level of problems.
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Old 2013-03-30, 10:24   Link #5867
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Regarding the matter about KMM. I think that they won't get the ax despite the arguable poor showing. On paper, as many have said, they did great. They still managed to reach the finals even if it can be argued that their equipment did the work for them. There are probably many many more teams that will go to the chopping block before KMM gets even near it. I think the most ark can hope for regarding any sort of misfortune against KMM is budget cuts. KMM clearly has too much surplus budget considering they managed to field a Mauss of all things.

Anyway, I think its very hard to judge which of the opposing teams Oorai faced was better - qualitatively speaking. As they go up in the tournament brackets its true that Oorai's quantitative disparity grows ever larger, with our heroes being the perpetual underdog. But, at the same time, I believe that as each match wore on, Oorai also keeps getting stronger not just with the additional tanks but Oorai's crews getting qualitatively better.

To use an analogy, if Oorai started with 50% crews at the St. Glorianna practice match, at the end of the tournament, they got enough experience to be able to drive their tanks with 100% crew plus a couple of perks.




Ummm... since you guys were talking about the schools. There is something that has been bothering me especially after I read the "little army" manga. What exactly is the relative age of Maho and Miho compared to each other?

Normally, I would think that this is a no brainer. Since Miho is a second year high school student, Maho being the elder sister and being able to participate in the same tournament should logically mean that Maho is a third year high school student.

But, the little army continuity occurred while Miho is ten years old which should logically place her at 4th or 5th grade in elementary school. Maho, on the other hand, is a bit difficult to place, but judging from this particular comment.

"Over the summer,one of our students from last year received an amazing award. Maho Nishizumi-san, a graduate of our school, was chosen as the MVP of a panzerkraft tournament."


From this comment, I could extrapolate that when Miho is a 5th grader, Maho is already a first year in Junior high. This theory is further strengthened by Maho being seen to be leaving on a ship when her school break is over. OVA 3 did beat as at the head about the location of elementary schooling (land) and secondary education schooling( sea).

Anyway, if the above premise is "canon." Then, right now, if Miho is a second year high school student. Maho should be a first year college student. But, this would mean that the senshado tournament is not restricted to high school level. How does that work, exactly? Does that mean that the Academy warships also has a college education level beside high school? I do admit that it is possible especially since they have college courses available like Agriculture, Naval, Meteorology, etc.

But, this leaves more question like where are the college students in Oorai?
Anzu is a third year high school student, right? And if the above premise is false and there is no college level for Oorai. Can graduated students still join or play for the senshado team?
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Old 2013-03-30, 10:31   Link #5868
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You guys should watch ep.11-12 again with Chunchyroll sub or Hir*** sub.

Many sentenses make a lot more sense.
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Old 2013-03-30, 10:31   Link #5869
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The age gap between the sisters seems to be one of those things that you're not suppose to put much thought into. The important thing really is that Maho is the older sister, and Miho the younger one, and that's it.

That said, a two-year gap seems more likely (Little Army gives evidence to this as well), especially when compared to the gap between the Miyanaga sisters in Saki... But if this is true then what the heck is Maho still doing in Black Forest? Or is this again connected to how the Japanese educational system keeps with the 6 (grade school)- 3 (middle school) - 3 (high school) format...
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Old 2013-03-30, 10:40   Link #5870
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Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
Regarding the matter about KMM. I think that they won't get the ax despite the arguable poor showing. On paper, as many have said, they did great. They still managed to reach the finals even if it can be argued that their equipment did the work for them. There are probably many many more teams that will go to the chopping block before KMM gets even near it. I think the most ark can hope for regarding any sort of misfortune against KMM is budget cuts. KMM clearly has too much surplus budget considering they managed to field a Mauss of all things.
Now, I really hope they'll do that - there's clearly an imbalance in the allocation of funds...

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
But, this leaves more question like where are the college students in Oorai?
Anzu is a third year high school student, right? And if the above premise is false and there is no college level for Oorai. Can graduated students still join or play for the senshado team?
Or maybe they, being nominally the German school despite citing Guderian in Japanese, took a leaf from the German school system:


Which apparently has 13 years.
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Old 2013-03-30, 10:42   Link #5871
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I recall various translations of the sign in front of Saunders that generally included "Saunders College (maybe one that used 'University') High School."
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Old 2013-03-30, 10:47   Link #5872
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In Saunders case, it seems that it's just the High School segment of a bigger school system, I think (like how De Lasalle has an actual high school in Greenhills here despite being a university everywhere else). For Black Forest, and Maho's puzzling situation, we might have to wait for some of the other Blu-Ray extras to answer that.
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Old 2013-03-30, 10:50   Link #5873
Anh_Minh
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I don't know that I'd make too much of an instance of a KMM quoting a translation rather than the original German. (Though i don't remember the particular incident.)

There can be quite a few explanations, like:
- the speaker just isn't good with foreign languages, despite years of schooling;
- the speaker is fluent, but ashamed of her accent;
- they consider it pretentious to switch languages when there's a perfectly serviceable translation.
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Old 2013-03-30, 10:54   Link #5874
rocket
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I did not say they weren't a school first. But for one thing, they are still for all the declining attendance a very large school, and for another thing, it is undeniable they are a city as well. So IMHO you can't just cut and paste the standard "close-school" difficulty level onto our current situation while completely ignoring the little detail they are a city with real families aboard as well (my emphasis), or ignore their relative rarity by pretending they are just as unimportant in the grand scheme of things as the real Oarai Prefectural High.
Uh... actually you can. In the same way that the 'reality' of having hundreds of families ignores the absurdity of the voluntary exile of those very same families to a wandering floating island. How do you go shopping in the big city on the weekend? Take a camping trip to the mountains? Heck how can the economic activity of the town possibly be maintained in it's itinerant state? The schools would have to somehow generate an enormous economic surplus not just to support the ship itself, the insanely expensive motorsport of Tankery, but also to justify the costs of shipping aboard everything required to maintain a normal lifestyle.

It seems that for every debated or controversial aspect of GuP if you try and draw logical conclusions from what's presented on screen as some kind of 'fact' you'll have to cherry pick some facts over others to even approach any kind of coherent picture. Worse, most of the time just about any set of facts you pick (the distance between tanks in the river?) will contradict what the story is very clearly trying to tell you.

This is not unique to GuP (most fictions will creak at the seams) but because it's mashes up such diametrically opposed elements (realistic WWII tank action with heart-full slice of life Japanese girls high school melo/micro-drama), the seams are large enough to drive a Maus through.

From the dialog, the facial expressions, the cinematography, and the sequence and timing of events, it seems very clear to me that the creators of GuP are trying to tell us:

The "school being disbanded" is actually a "your club is being shut down" level problem. It's bizarrely expressed in the GuP-verse thanks to a combination of "Absurdly powerful student council" and the Macross-city ship envy of the creators. The stated threat "city closure" should dramatically have involved all students as well as the gov and populace being involved not just in trying to find a solution, but at least cheering on the Ooarai Tankey team to "save our town!" Instead everything from the implausible secrecy involved to the way the town spectators are given equal screen time (less maybe?) to the vanquished team spectators, frames the contest emotionally as a drama about the sport and the school team's comeback story. When Miho finally feels the weight of responsibility - it's to her teammates, not the town. When the audience is first inducted into a sense of dread about the yet-to-be-revealed-secret, it's through the school antics remembrances of the student council. Facts be dammed, they'll say one thing, but the show wants you to care in a very specific way.

It's no different really than the carbon armor 'fact' that justifies the entire show, not really accounting for the fact that the girls spend way too much time unbuttoned to be actually "safe". The stated facts of the show say one thing, just enough to lull you into suspending disbelief about the plausible safety of Tankery as a sport. However what the program really shows you is "actually Tankery is completely safe (aside from drowning)."

Ultimately this is a question of how you choose to approach any story - when faced with a seam in the cloth of the "fabrication" (see what I did there?), what do you do?
- Do you reject the thing whole cloth? (the author completely failed to generate any suspension of disbelief)
- Rationalize the story from the details that you like? (you find the artifacts of the story are more compelling than the plot)
- Stick with the story and ignore the cracks? (successful suspension of disbelief)
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Old 2013-03-30, 11:06   Link #5875
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Or maybe they, being nominally the German school despite citing Guderian in Japanese
Or you should stop clinging onto irrelevant details to justify your bias and focus on the most important thing: Russian is actually easier to pronounce than German for the average Japanese.
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Old 2013-03-30, 11:24   Link #5876
night_sentinel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post



Or maybe they, being nominally the German school despite citing Guderian in Japanese, took a leaf from the German school system:


Which apparently has 13 years.
Pardon me. I'm a bit confused about the German schooling system. There seems to be a an extra year in the equivalent of junior high? But, we know that that Miho and Maho attended the same elementary school and from the stat sheet given to us, Miho is in the same age as her team. Which by logic meant that Miho should be older by 1 year to Saori and the others for the same grade level if we go by this educational system.

Unless, KMM is only for the high school which meant there is only a fourth year in high school. And, the series hasn't told us what junior high Maho and Miho attended. I suppose Maho being a fourth year high school student does solve all the problem.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
In Saunders case, it seems that it's just the High School segment of a bigger school system, I think (like how De Lasalle has an actual high school in Greenhills here despite being a university everywhere else). For Black Forest, and Maho's puzzling situation, we might have to wait for some of the other Blu-Ray extras to answer that.
Well, I don't think well know until we get a Word of God. I was mostly concerned because it seems that the World Championship being held in Japan that was name dropped on the first episode would not be happening next year.

Here is Momo's quote on the subject:
"The World Senshado Competition is scheduled to be held in Japan in a few years."

The keyword here is a few years. That meant this would most likely happen in Miho and co's college years. I thought it would be nice if Oorai actually has a college division so that our gang would not be separated. On the other hand, mixing schools might be a nice thing as well. Though, I do wonder how will they select the representative teams here.
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Old 2013-03-30, 11:32   Link #5877
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I don't know that I'd make too much of an instance of a KMM quoting a translation rather than the original German. (Though i don't remember the particular incident.)
It is in Ep10 as Maho gives a talk to her tank crews.

Quote:
There can be quite a few explanations, like:
- the speaker just isn't good with foreign languages, despite years of schooling;
- the speaker is fluent, but ashamed of her accent;
- they consider it pretentious to switch languages when there's a perfectly serviceable translation.
All possible, but it still provides a contrast against the Pravdans that are comfortable enough to sing in Russian while driving. Even if one insists they must have learned German despite lack of example, it implies the level of proficiency reached is lower than in say Pravda or St. Glorianna (where Darjeeling at least mutters "All is fair in love and war"; she also shows she knows a little Russian by mumbling a Horosho). In a show-not-tell show, these little things count for a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
Pardon me. I'm a bit confused about the German schooling system.
Well, I don't understand the finer points of the German system as well, but it does have 13 years total in some circumstances which seems to be the only way Maho can still be some kind of high school student.

Quote:
The keyword here is a few years. That meant this would most likely happen in Miho and co's college years. I thought it would be nice if Oorai actually has a college division so that our gang would not be separated. On the other hand, mixing schools might be a nice thing as well. Though, I do wonder how will they select the representative teams here.
Well, going by the number of schoolships they have, if universities are on ships as well, their numbers would be limited - so it is pretty easy for them to all just pick the same university.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2013-03-30 at 11:53. Reason: Think I misunderstood this part
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Old 2013-03-30, 12:13   Link #5878
Endless Knackwurst
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We now interrupt your regularly-scheduled bantering for Girls und... Paella?

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Old 2013-03-30, 13:29   Link #5879
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Old 2013-03-30, 14:30   Link #5880
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