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Old 2013-04-16, 21:45   Link #6281
LoweGear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst View Post
The GuP/WoT connection is strong in this one.

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http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=35055351
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
They could at least use the updated version of that Girls Und Panzer logo
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Old 2013-04-16, 21:45   Link #6282
Sumeragi
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Well, there was that small part in the past about the Firefly being against US doctrine. Whoever wrote that had no idea of what US tank doctrines were like.
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Old 2013-04-16, 21:46   Link #6283
Myssa Rei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Essentially, using "self-produced" material as agreement with an interpretation. Not a good way to do things.
The problem with these sorts of things is that information from sources like wikis are almost never done by the people behind the production, but by viewers or fans like us (even the entry on JP's wiki). There's always going to be a degree of separation, but it's as good as we can get.

Plus, on TV-Tropes entry's case, it's easy to spot where "opinion" ends and where the stuff drawn from actual observation of the series begins. Because you know, we watched the show as well.

re Firefly: You mean the one that Gen. Leslie McNair (who subsequently got killed by friendly fire during Operation Cobra) put forward, the same one that by around D-Day (Tanks support Infantry, leave tank-hunting to Anti-tank guns and TDs)? I thought that one was ultimately proven as somewhat flawed by the encounters that happened after the landings?

I thought the British really were on the ball with that particular decision myself.
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Old 2013-04-17, 01:59   Link #6284
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Essentially, using "self-produced" material as agreement with an interpretation. Not a good way to do things.
Except he's not saying "I'm right because it's written on TvTropes", he's saying "Here's what I think happened, and if you can't understand my shorthand, look up TVTropes".

Speaking of, do you have grounds to disagree with his interpretation beyond the fact he referenced TVTropes?
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Old 2013-04-17, 02:25   Link #6285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Speaking of, do you have grounds to disagree with his interpretation beyond the fact he referenced TVTropes?
If you mean this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
All true, but as TVTropes said, it was a case of True Words. De facto, it was a threat, and so it will have stayed without the little revelation.
Is a statement of fact really a threat?
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Old 2013-04-17, 03:02   Link #6286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
If you mean this:

Is a statement of fact really a threat?
The reality may be that it was not a threat, but the perception was that this was a threat. This is the perception that Saori and Hana display, and this is how the audience interprets that scene.

Revisiting that scene after learning of the true situation, we can now realise that yes, it was a statement of fact, but it was interpreted by the recipients as a threat.

Note also that Anzu didn't actually do any threats, she let the girls fill in the blanks and come up with the threat interpretation themselves.

At the end of the day, all reality is affected by our perceptions.
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Old 2013-04-17, 03:10   Link #6287
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Perception is not de facto, probably why I found arkhangelsk's statement to be strange.
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Old 2013-04-17, 04:21   Link #6288
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I really shouldn't be surprised that you didn't realise that, or understand what was shown on-screen.

I think it's fairly obvious we're all viewing the world through different filters and color settings. You're using NTSC while we're using PAL.

The Student Council informs Saori, Hana and Miho that unless Miho takes part in senshado, they won't be there at school. (Subs differ - Commie has this wording, whereas Hiryu has Anzu point blank telling Miho she can have her expelled. For sake of argument, we're taking Commie, since that's what everyone has been using in this little argument.)

As such, that is essentially a threat in fact, if not outright point blank stated.

Of course, if we assume that Hiryuu is more accurate, then it's a moot point, because according to Hiryuu's subs, Anzu point blank tells Miho that she can have her expelled: she is openly threatening Miho.
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Old 2013-04-17, 07:04   Link #6289
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I believe the actual phrase (which by the way NONE of the subbers used) is "You won't be coming to school here next year." It's clearly a threat (though a weird one, especially if there's no context as to WHY she won't be coming to school next year.), but it's also an indirect clue that something is up.
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Old 2013-04-17, 07:38   Link #6290
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There was no next year. Going over it again, for the record, the original Japanese went like this:
「こんな事言ってるとあんた達、この学校に居られなくしちゃうよ」

"If you say things like that, you girls won't be able to remain in this school" is about as close I can get to it in English, but even that unfairly ignores the activeness (as in, the Student Council will take active measures to further this result) implied by the しちゃう part, rather than for example the more neutral に成っちゃう (which will allow for both their own active measures and factors outside their control.

If anything, given this phrasing, a clean 退学させる (made to quit school) might be the least horrible threat. It could cover abusing all their powers as Student Council to make life hell on the 3 of them until they quit of their own accord (at least officially), or in the worst case, commit suicide, or die in an "accident" ... etc.

Sure, the pronoun was never mentioned (something much easier to do in Japanese), so technically speaking, using this phrasing you can insist that someone that's not Anzu will be taking the active measures. But even after knowing the result, they are taking TVTrope's "Exact Words" to the very limit that day.

Then Yuzu ups the ante by saying:
「今の内に謝った方が良いと思うよ。ね?ね?」
"(I) Think it is better for you to apologize now."

And Momo even goes:
「横暴は生徒会に与えられた(the rest is nearly drowned out, but is probably 特権)」
"Tyranny is a special right granted to the Student Council."

I leave the rest to everyone's interpretation.
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Old 2013-04-17, 10:10   Link #6291
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There's no doubt in my mind that the first time through the audience and Miho are supposed to take it as a threat.

What's interesting to me is wether the Student Council is intended to be consciously threatening. Or if in retrospect we're supposed to see their characters making it seem more threatening than they intended or were conscious of.
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Old 2013-04-17, 13:06   Link #6292
Sumeragi
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Basically, "your mileage may vary".
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Old 2013-04-17, 15:25   Link #6293
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Perception is not de facto, probably why I found arkhangelsk's statement to be strange.
Threats are a lot about perception. If I point a (realistic) toy gun at a cashier and tell him to hand me the contents of the register, I am threatening him. The fact it's a bluff doesn't matter. (As can be attested by some prison escapes...)

And if I break into someone's house, point that same toy gun at them and tell them to get out or they'll die (without bothering to tell them their house is on fire) - I am also threatening them even as I'm stating a fact.

I'll also point out that not only the student council did nothing to dispel the impression Miho would be expelled at their whim, they purposely created and maintained the illusion.

It doesn't really matter to me. The fact they arguably used Exact Words doesn't make me think better of their methods, and I've forgiven them anyway. But there's no getting around the fact they threatened Miho.


Also: you're not really arguing for a different interpretation of the facts of what happened, or the states of mind of everyone concerned - you're arguing the semantics of "de facto" and "threat". You... could have stood to say that earlier, instead of going all style over substance.
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Old 2013-04-17, 18:52   Link #6294
Myssa Rei
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Cripes, we spent almost two pages on an argument on semantics? We're terribly bored aren't we?

On other things, if we go by the preview to the next OVA, the complete Anglerfish Dance walkthrough would likely take less than 3 minutes (if it's the same length as the track in the OST)... Which leaves 7 or so more minutes left to focus on what? Fanservice aside, all the other OVAs had a theme to them (swimsuits, camping out, and the city ship), but if we're going to focus on the dance this time, uhm.

Unless we get a whole-cast line dance.
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Old 2013-04-17, 18:57   Link #6295
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For crying out loud, where is the match between KMM & Gloriana!!

- Tak
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Old 2013-04-17, 19:04   Link #6296
Myssa Rei
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Quote:
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For crying out loud, where is the match between KMM & Gloriana!!

- Tak
That would be something, as I'd like to see their usual line-ups for a change. Especially since there doesn't seem to be anything against changing line-ups unlike Saki where the team positions are set in stone until the end of the tourney (or else Ooarai would REALLY be boned), and what evidence we have points to Kuromorimine's lineup for the finals to be something they cooked up for Pravda and not Ooarai (see Miho's predictions in episode 10).

But didn't we already discuss lineups? How about tactics then? Because due to Darjeeling's preferences, St. Glorianna's lineup seems to be mostly Infantry tanks, with some Crusaders as skirmishers. So slow, lumbering tanks more or less, with some gun issues outside of the Churchill Mk VII.
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Old 2013-04-17, 19:13   Link #6297
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Indeed, the threat from the student council really discolored my first impressions on this anime, and turned me off from the student council members for half of the show. Everything worked out fine in the end, but I would have rather put some other excuse to convince Miho to retake senshado. Even some contrived coincidence would have fit the show's mood better than blackmail. This anime works best as a fun sports show, not as a melodrama.
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Old 2013-04-17, 19:50   Link #6298
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Darjeeling did mention they had a Mark VI in their lineup and planed to used it against Black Forest's Maus in the manner that Ooarai did. But is that the light tank or the cavalry tank? I don't thinkthey had a Mark VI infantry tank. And I don't think it would have been one of their other takes of the sixth model (like the Churchill VII)
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Old 2013-04-17, 20:15   Link #6299
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I'd like to think that it's the Crusader, aka Cruiser mk.VI, which was shown in episode 04. It makes sense to have a unit that can scout the area in advance of the slow-moving infantry tanks.
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Old 2013-04-17, 20:28   Link #6300
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