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Old 2013-08-21, 23:39   Link #7161
LoweGear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Just what the legislators want to see, really

Some of them have been dreaming a larger military for years. In time, the JSDF will expand and abandon its SELF DEFENSE FORCE posture. Maybe we will finally witness the last nails to the coffin for Article 9.

I bet they are fist pumping air right now going: YES! Good job GuP! Good Job!

- Tak
But there's a caveat: all the tankers must be women!
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Old 2013-08-22, 05:38   Link #7162
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Originally Posted by Helius View Post
Now that you mentioned it, it would be cool to see a University/Adult Senshado which employs modern tanks like the M1, T-74, Leopard 2 etc. which is probably what I assume to be the case in GuP world?
Actually, probably not. You notice that tanks that are by quick appearances identical to ours are still in the military proper, which presumably means that tanks are still effective against each other. If they can prevent penetrations against modern rounds just by sheathing them in "carbon", this cannot be. Thus the show's evidence would suggest that the borderline for relative safety is far less than the offensive capabilities of modern weapons. Maybe there's room for early Cold War, but I just don't see APFSDS flying about.

Besides, hadn't the show gone about as far down the "Stupid teams winning by sheer dint of superior equipment" shtick as it can be taken? Do we really need to see an adult version of Nishizumi-ryu armed with M1A2 SEPs (or whatever) bullying teams that can barely buy Type 61s?
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Old 2013-08-22, 07:33   Link #7163
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I want to see instructor in action with Type 10.
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Old 2013-08-22, 09:24   Link #7164
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Hmm... half way to GuP for realz!

http://en.rocketnews24.com/2012/10/1...r-wows-crowds/

Ok ... not rilly, but we can dream right?
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Old 2013-08-22, 09:39   Link #7165
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Originally Posted by kimpleng View Post


I want to see instructor in action with Type 10.
I so love instructor-chan

I've been meaning to ask here, when does the Anchovy OVA come out again?
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Old 2013-08-22, 11:01   Link #7166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Besides, hadn't the show gone about as far down the "Stupid teams winning by sheer dint of superior equipment" shtick as it can be taken? Do we really need to see an adult version of Nishizumi-ryu armed with M1A2 SEPs (or whatever) bullying teams that can barely buy Type 61s?
I'm with you: I would prefer if we didn't see Nishizumi-ryu fanatics running around with the world's most advanced main battle tanks. The "whole point" of Panzerfahren is to cultivate and refine interpersonal and intrapersonal skills, as well as appreciate the importance of team efforts and unity.

Allowing for modern tanks would promote the notions that "might is right" and that victory can be bought, contradicting the basis of Panzerfahren. Besides, true strength is being able to best an opponent by out-thinking and out-maneuvering them, not by bringing more gun and trying to pummel them to dust. In other words, allowing anything past WWII-era armour would bring back the very thing that the current female-only Panzerfahren environment sought to minimise: the main battle tanks of our age are designed with the aim of defeating an enemy, not promote sportsmanship.

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Originally Posted by mangatron View Post
I've been meaning to ask here, when does the Anchovy OVA come out again?
I've asked previously and obtained no responses, so it is safe to assume that no official news has been released yet. Judging from the Fall 2013 anime line-up, it probably won't show up soon, and may see a release in the Winter 2014 season instead to promote interest in the upcoming movie. These are merely my speculations, though
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Old 2013-08-22, 11:08   Link #7167
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Thanks for that bit. I guess I'll hang out on this thread more often then
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Old 2013-08-22, 11:25   Link #7168
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Originally Posted by ForwardUntoDawn View Post
I'm with you: I would prefer if we didn't see Nishizumi-ryu fanatics running around with the world's most advanced main battle tanks. The "whole point" of Panzerfahren is to cultivate and refine interpersonal and intrapersonal skills, as well as appreciate the importance of team efforts and unity.
Tell that to Nishizumi Maho and her mother who steamrolled everyone else with their "victory at any cost" tradition. And that brought them 9 years of winning. I mean, they shoot a tank that headed to help their own crew that was about to drawn in the river. It's true that it is lame to do it like that but there is no rule that forbids that and the rule that says "no OP allowed", just look at Black Forest school, who has chance against that power house at all 1 on 1?
Miho and her school won by using friendship and strategy, yes. But they also had a lot of luck. Especially in the last battle...

Quote:
Allowing for modern tanks would promote the notions that "might is right" and that victory can be bought, contradicting the basis of Panzerfahren. Besides, true strength is being able to best an opponent by out-thinking and out-maneuvering them, not by bringing more gun and trying to pummel them to dust. In other words, allowing anything past WWII-era armour would bring back the very thing that the current female-only Panzerfahren environment sought to minimise: the main battle tanks of our age are designed with the aim of defeating an enemy, not promote sportsmanship.
Not quite true, most modern tanks today today are somewhat equal in firepower ( M1A1, Challenger 2, T-90, Leopold 2... ) and since we have seen that even obsolete tanks like M3 Lee can take out much stronger opponents I say: why not?
Especially if both teams have modern tanks, then it's all about experience and skills as all modern tanks are basically the same.
Besides it would be stupid if international level tournament has exact same tanks as japanese schools ( WW2 era ). Even their instructor is not using WW2 but modern warfare main battle tank.
And just imagine Miho and her team in Leopold or Abrams. I would love to see that.
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Old 2013-08-22, 11:58   Link #7169
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Originally Posted by Brother Coa View Post
Tell that to Nishizumi Maho and her mother who steamrolled everyone else with their "victory at any cost" tradition. And that brought them 9 years of winning. I mean, they shoot a tank that headed to help their own crew that was about to drawn in the river. It's true that it is lame to do it like that but there is no rule that forbids that and the rule that says "no OP allowed", just look at Black Forest school, who has chance against that power house at all 1 on 1?
Miho and her school won by using friendship and strategy, yes. But they also had a lot of luck. Especially in the last battle...

Not quite true, most modern tanks today today are somewhat equal in firepower ( M1A1, Challenger 2, T-90, Leopold 2... ) and since we have seen that even obsolete tanks like M3 Lee can take out much stronger opponents I say: why not?
Especially if both teams have modern tanks, then it's all about experience and skills as all modern tanks are basically the same.
Besides it would be stupid if international level tournament has exact same tanks as japanese schools ( WW2 era ). Even their instructor is not using WW2 but modern warfare main battle tank.
And just imagine Miho and her team in Leopold or Abrams. I would love to see that.
I'm more than capable of challenging the Nishizumi-ryu on paper and in practise I've previously taken the liberty of exploring why the Nishizumi Style falls short and shall reiterate that here: Black Forest's previous victories are attributed to teams who tried to match them face-to-face in combat, taking on direct confrontations against an enemy with superior firepower. If two teams have equally inferior strategy, then the team with a mechanical and/or numerical advantage will prevail. Sun Tzu suggested that teams clearly weaker should not take on their enemy in such a manner. Similarly, a numerically and tactically superior force should capitalise on their capacities wisely, rather than blindly rushing in as per the Nishizumi style.

The reason Ooarai succeeded is because Miho is able to push Black Forest out of their comfort zone, and in the process, shakes up their confidence. Maho might be a capable strategist and anticipate these things, but the majority of Black Forest haven't been seen to illustrate that same kind of discipline. As we've both noted, Ooarai, on the other hand, stand united. That strength matters: while not mentioned in my aforementioned discussion, Miho is able to consistently do one thing better than Maho. This would be raising morale and a sense of unity in those under her command, raising their respect such that they would more or less move heaven and earth for her. This is the mark of a great commander, as is consistent with Sun Tzu's writings.

As for the claim that all MBTs are equivalent? Firepower alone does not account for victory: the current-generation MBTs and the previous generation ones mentioned differ not greatly in firepower, but special equipment, such as ballistic computers and turret stablisation, for instance. The equipment mentioned here allows tanks to calculate the trajectory of their rounds far more efficiently and give their main cannon more accuracy at longer ranges, whereas the latter confers improved accuracy while the tank itself is moving, respectively. Of course, modern tanks also have kinetic penetrators that will shred the armour of the earlier MBTs, while themselves possessing composite and/or reactive armours that aim to minimise the damage of previous-generation ammunition. Taken together, yes, there is a substantial difference that is sufficient to shift the balance in favour of those with superior resources.

The possibility of imbalance would arise, since the perks found in present-day MBTs like the M1A2 Abrams, T90, Challenger II or Leopard II would give them a near-total edge over older MBTs like the M60 Patton and Soviet T-64, while presumably making the tanks far more costly to acquire. Thus, my points still stands, as some schools will still be at the disadvantage, and said disadvantages will be amplified owing to the substantial improvements in the technology fielded by newer tanks.
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Old 2013-08-22, 12:38   Link #7170
Brother Coa
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Originally Posted by ForwardUntoDawn View Post
I'm more than capable of challenging the Nishizumi-ryu on paper and in practise I've previously taken the liberty of exploring why the Nishizumi Style falls short and shall reiterate that here: Black Forest's previous victories are attributed to teams who tried to match them face-to-face in combat, taking on direct confrontations against an enemy with superior firepower. If two teams have equally inferior strategy, then the team with a mechanical and/or numerical advantage will prevail. Sun Tzu suggested that teams clearly weaker should not take on their enemy in such a manner. Similarly, a numerically and tactically superior force should capitalise on their capacities wisely, rather than blindly rushing in as per the Nishizumi style.
I agree
But the main reason why they go head on with everyone is because their tanks can hit a tank from 3km and destroy it. They could just sit back and let other tanks come at them.
Their style actually fit them, advance slowly in groups and blow up everything in your path, they have power and armor and of course they will play like that.

Quote:
The reason Ooarai succeeded is because Miho is able to push Black Forest out of their comfort zone, and in the process, shakes up their confidence. Maho might be a capable strategist and anticipate these things, but the majority of Black Forest haven't been seen to illustrate that same kind of discipline. As we've both noted, Ooarai, on the other hand, stand united. That strength matters: while not mentioned in my aforementioned discussion, Miho is able to consistently do one thing better than Maho. This would be raising morale and a sense of unity in those under her command, raising their respect such that they would more or less move heaven and earth for her. This is the mark of a great commander, as is consistent with Sun Tzu's writings.
I partially agree, they also had a LOT of luck.
-Chi-Ha in the beginning malfunctioned and have gone backwards instead of forward and as a result they were not defeated 10 seconds since the game started.
-16 ton Hetzer cannot lift 188 ton Maus, and that turret is at least three times heavier than Type 89 so they should fall from the tank the moment she moved that turret.
-In the end they won by going 1 on 1 and staking everything on a single long shot that would leave them vulnerable if they missed or the shell bounced as in next second the rest of Black Forest tanks arrived.

By all accounts they should lost that battle, it's all thanks to Miho strategy + teamwork + plot armor that they won.
But ok, without plot armor everything would be stupid and boring

Quote:
As for the claim that all MBTs are equivalent? Firepower alone does not account for victory: the current-generation MBTs and the previous generation ones mentioned differ not greatly in firepower, but special equipment, such as ballistic computers and turret stablisation, for instance. The equipment mentioned here allows tanks to calculate the trajectory of their rounds far more efficiently and give their main cannon more accuracy at longer ranges, whereas the latter confers improved accuracy while the tank itself is moving, respectively. Of course, modern tanks also have kinetic penetrators that will shred the armour of the earlier MBTs, while themselves possessing composite and/or reactive armours that aim to minimise the damage of previous-generation ammunition. Taken together, yes, there is a substantial difference that is sufficient to shift the balance in favour of those with superior resources.

The possibility of imbalance would arise, since the perks found in present-day MBTs like the M1A2 Abrams, T90, Challenger II or Leopard II would give them a near-total edge over older MBTs like the M60 Patton and Soviet T-64, while presumably making the tanks far more costly to acquire. Thus, my points still stands, as some schools will still be at the disadvantage, and said disadvantages will be amplified owing to the substantial improvements in the technology fielded by newer tanks.
I disagree on two basis:
-Even fairly equipped T-72 or even T-55 can take down a M1 Abrams, just like Miho took down Sherman with anti-infantry cannon. Of course, MBT now are better than those from 20 years ago but hey - if they can take type 89 and go toe to toe with King Tiger than they can take T-72 and go toe to toe with Leopold II.
-I am pretty sure that International Panzerfahren rules forbid the use of things like "special equipment, such as ballistic computers and turret stabilization". They probably only include human factor and weapon and armor upgrades, but no computers or visors whatsoever ( remember that they read rules for radio equipment to see if that was valid for use, imagine if someone put targeting computer in his tank... I am sure he would be banned). And I am sure that unlike WW2 national they have actual rules for tanks that can be used in event ( same reason why WW1 tanks like Mark I were not used in anime even if we saw people using them on recruitment video ).
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Old 2013-08-22, 12:55   Link #7171
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The original arrangement for senshado, with a limit set at WWII tanks, made the most sense: Advanced targeting assistance didn't exist yet, most of the operation was still very hands-on, and that was still all that the tanks had to offer.

The problem with later tanks is that most of the systems function at their best with electronic and mechanical integration. Why cripple the tank to fight with it? It would be like having an auto race where all of the cars have half of their engines filled with sand.
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Old 2013-08-22, 14:07   Link #7172
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True, most modern tanks are too much dependable on electronics. I nfact, most of them have it as their standar equipment.

Then why not use as minimum as you need for your tank to work? I doubt that modern tank need auto targeting, infrared, night vision etc... that's to help human gunner in targeting not for the tank to function.

It can still be done, even with modern tanks. Without too much sacrifice in human element area.
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Old 2013-08-22, 14:14   Link #7173
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Originally Posted by Brother Coa View Post
True, most modern tanks are too much dependable on electronics. I nfact, most of them have it as their standar equipment.

Then why not use as minimum as you need for your tank to work? I doubt that modern tank need auto targeting, infrared, night vision etc... that's to help human gunner in targeting not for the tank to function.
Thats why I have always proposed the adult tank leagues should utilize cold-war era vehicles. While targeting systems have advanced during the Cold War, the human element was still incredibly crucial and necessary for successful operation of any armor.

- Tak
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Old 2013-08-22, 14:44   Link #7174
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I think see your logic:

-preschool: WW1 Tanks.
-school/high school: WW2 tanks.
-adults: Cold War/Modern Era tanks.

But why not let high schoolers to drive say T-55 or Sheridan or Merkava?
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Old 2013-08-22, 15:03   Link #7175
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Perhaps it isn't as fun of a sport outside World War II.
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Old 2013-08-22, 17:32   Link #7176
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Originally Posted by Brother Coa View Post
I agree

-16 ton Hetzer cannot lift 188 ton Maus, and that turret is at least three times heavier than Type 89 so they should fall from the tank the moment she moved that turret.
Two things to consider on these points:

1) It looked to me more as is the Hetzer acted as a ramp which the Maus ran up on, and then didn't have enough ground purchase to back off from.

2) The turret of the Maus is indeed more massive than the Type 89. However, did the motor which rotated the turret have enough power to move the turret and the Type 89? Also, it would have been pushing the Type 89 "uphill".
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Old 2013-08-22, 18:37   Link #7177
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Originally Posted by Brother Coa View Post
-preschool: WW1 Tanks.
Eh? You want to let 5 year olds drive tanks?

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Old 2013-08-22, 18:38   Link #7178
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I think he meant RC tanks

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Old 2013-08-22, 18:47   Link #7179
Endless Knackwurst
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I wonder what the ninjutsu elective was like...
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Old 2013-08-22, 19:32   Link #7180
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Ah, I missed that part.

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