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Old 2004-05-21, 13:54   Link #101
TronDD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HaRoRuleZ
I see that we can put this incest matter to rest.
I suppose people are done listening to us anyway.
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Old 2004-05-21, 21:27   Link #102
Grifis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TronDD
Your first sentence is contradicted by the 3rd. The brother's masturbation IS sexual and goes well beyond a brother/sister relationship. Whether or not that makes it incest, I say it does. In the same way, you thinking about kicking me has made your post violent.
I was talking about the representation of the relationship. The relationship is still brother/sister. I can't say the same about him and his hand though.

Quote:
I wasn't equating the two. Thinking about sex with your sister is not sex with your sister, however, sex with your sister would be incest; therefore thinking about sex with your sister is thinking about incest. What I am saying is that he has incest on his mind, therefore part of the show is about incest.
That quote is about violence, even though no physical violence occurs. It is still violence.
In conclusion, if I happen to know you think of sex every three seconds, that makes you a pervert or maybe partially a pervert ?

Quote:
I still say the show is partially about incest
Hmm... I can't quite see it that way yet. I haven't been able to convince myself that KGNE is partially about sex (because they have some implied scenes).

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Old 2004-05-21, 23:16   Link #103
TronDD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifis
Hmm... I can't quite see it that way yet. I haven't been able to convince myself that KGNE is partially about sex (because they have some implied scenes).
A show doesn't have to contain whatever to be about it.

Koi Kaze is (partially) about a guy who wants to have sex with his sister. He has fantasized about it, we know it's in his mind (and hers). That makes the show about incest and how he's dealing with that feeling.

He doesn't have to have sex with her for the show to be about incest, only for the show to contain incest.

Alternatively, KGNE contains sex, but I wouldn't say it is about sex at all.
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Old 2004-05-22, 09:13   Link #104
Grifis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TronDD
A show doesn't have to contain whatever to be about it.

Koi Kaze is (partially) about a guy who wants to have sex with his sister. He has fantasized about it, we know it's in his mind (and hers). That makes the show about incest and how he's dealing with that feeling.

He doesn't have to have sex with her for the show to be about incest, only for the show to contain incest.

Alternatively, KGNE contains sex, but I wouldn't say it is about sex at all.
My point was Koi Kaze is mainly about 2 siblings first feeling attractions then falling in love with each other helplessly after parting for so long and seeing each other as strangers. Therefore they had a hard time dealing with this predicament. There are suggested scenes on the brother's part that portrayed his attraction to her by showing his desire as an adult. It's a supporting element. Now in a ordinary romance anime when you have sexual implications I believe you can easily see them as supporting elements and don't even see them as something the anime is partially about. If those 2 are strangers will it be partly about a guy fantasizing to have sex with his dream girl or is it just a romance story between a guy and a girl? That's all I'm trying to say.

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Old 2004-05-25, 09:48   Link #105
kamatari honjo
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i am not sure?

just because "GENEON USA is listed in the credits", does that mean its going to come out in america? because i don't know, i can't really see koi kaze hitting the dvd stands and being a huge sucess story.

i know that i have only seen about half the story, but i am positive that after episode 4, a good majority might not continue no matter how the story ends up.

Spoiler:


but, no doubt there is us support for this title, but if there is never going to be dvds, should there never be fansubs?
and if there is never going to be release for this title, what about other titles?

***a little bit off topic***

lastly, if they did release koi kaze ... who here would watch it? do you think there would be some kind of warning on the package "incestious content"? do you think the dvd would have to specify the plot, or would they let unsuspecting viewers stumble onto this story?

if you were in a suncoast and saw a guy/girl buying koi kaze, would you maybe say something to them or just think weird thoughts about them.
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Old 2004-05-25, 15:58   Link #106
Dagger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamatari honjo
if you were in a suncoast and saw a guy/girl buying koi kaze, would you maybe say something to them or just think weird thoughts about them.
Well... I'd be in Best Buy, not Suncoast. ^_~ But seriously, I would just compliment him or her on having excellent taste in anime. Koi Kaze is a damn good show that features some amazing characterization and doesn't back away from potentially controversial material. You don't have to endorse incest to be a fan of the show, so I don't think "weird thoughts" would be merited.
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Old 2004-05-25, 16:08   Link #107
TronDD
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I don't think "Geneon USA" in the credits automatically means a North American release. I think it simply means that Geneon USA fronted some money for the production. They may very well be planning to make that money back in Japan and have no interest in bringing it to America. Then again, they may already have an automatic license to release it in America and it therefore may not cost them much to do so and may be worth it. Just guessing of course.

Animesuki feels that it will most likely come to America so fansubs wont be listed here. They are guessing, too.

I know I'd buy the series if they released it here. I don't judge people on what they are purchasing, I don't usually pay any attention to it. Unless they are buying Dragonball, then they suck.

I doubt there would be a warning on it. Do they even give age ratings on anime DVDs? Buyer beware if you pick up something you know nothing about and it's something that discusts you (of course I say that knowing how likely it is that they will blame everyone but themselves for what they saw and try to start a big uproar about it).
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Old 2004-05-25, 19:56   Link #108
Dagger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TronDD
I doubt there would be a warning on it. Do they even give age ratings on anime DVDs?
On almost all of the anime I've bought, yes. The age ratings are usually well-hidden, though, and they seem pretty arbitrary. I don't know anyone who takes them seriously.
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Old 2004-05-26, 09:38   Link #109
TronDD
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So they'll stick a mature rating on it (maybe) and it'll be largly ignored.

Ooo, ep 7 is out.
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Old 2004-05-26, 10:59   Link #110
Broccoli
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My guess is the US release of Koikaze will get a '13-up' rating (see below). I am pretty confident it will come stateside. Otherwise I'll be forking out money for the region-2 release.


Geneon USA and a few other publishers such as Bandai and CPM use a fairly elaborate rating system on all of their titles, although the descriptions associated with each of the levels are quite vague.

Quote:
Why the Rating system?
Ratings are provided as a guide to provide a frame of reference for judging the potential contents of a title. All ratings are suggestions only, and should never replace parental review or good judgment.

What do the suggested ages mean?
Basically suitable for all ages. Titles in this category may contain mild violence, however there will be no strong language, no nudity, and no sexual situations.

Essentially equivalent to a TV7, this rating applies to programs with content suitable for all but the youngest and/or most sensitive children. Titles in this category may contain broadcast children's TV acceptable levels of violence, language and mature situations.

Suitable for younger teens. Titles in this category may contain strong, but not graphic, violence, some nudity; some strong language and implied sexual situations.

Suitable for older teens. Titles in this category may contain graphic violence, prominent nudity, graphic language and implied sexual situations.

Basically suitable for adults only. Titles in this category may contain at least one of the following: extremely graphic and gory violence, excessive language, gratuitous nudity, graphic language, strong sexual situations, or graphically depicted sexual intercourse.

Occasionally, a higher rating may be suggested because of topics addressed within the title (such as suicide, incest, or other mature themes), even though the story or visual content may merit a lower rating. While these ratings probably do not account for the various cultural or regional sensitivities (or lack there of), these rating reflect what Pioneer considers to be generally acceptable standards for the general population of the USA. If you have any questions please refer them to customer service.
AFAIK, no PLDC/Geneon title has ever been rated '18-up'.
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Old 2004-05-26, 11:25   Link #111
TronDD
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Bandai and Anime Works use the same rating symbols, I assume it's some standard. I took at look at my DVDs. Noir has an age rating, but FMP (which was the only one I had checked when I asked if any had a rating) does not. Both are ADV, and Noir is a bit older. I suppose they don't have to rate them at all.

EDIT: Well son of a... They did rate FMP. The first DVD has no rating, I suppose that's because it came with the box. The rating is on the bottom of the box where it can be seen in a store. So don't mind me, I'm apparently going on about nothing.

Episode 7 was another great one.

Just when I'm thinking it's such a pleasant and beautiful show-
Spoiler:
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Old 2004-05-26, 13:32   Link #112
Nimbleminx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TronDD
I suppose people are done listening to us anyway.
I've been listening.

I truly adore this show. It's a love story first and foremost, and like all good love stories, or any kind of good story for that matter, it has to have a conflict and it happens to be blood relation and age difference. I think the author has done a wonderful job of building a believable story with realistic characters and grounds it with layer upon layer of nuance. I see no fan service at all. The "salacious" details are there to move the story along in a realistic fashion. Others in this thread have pointed that out quite succinctly. To say the show is "about" pedophilia or incest is to miss the point completely. Koshiro isn't a pedophile, we're even given a dyed in the wool character that is to show us the difference.

It's true that he has fallen in love with his sister, but the process began before he knew he was related to her through an intense moment of intimacy, something we find is alien to the cool hearted fella. Even though he is nearly 30 he has never been in love before "from the bottom of his heart" so in the end this is really a first love story for both of them which brings us around to the much ballyhooed "bra sniffing".

I think anyone that doesn't understand the impulse to take in the scent of the one they desire has never really been in love. Smell is the most primal of our senses and linked the closest with our emotional center. Again, he doesn't go looking for it, but finds himself in a situation unable to resit an impulse, not to mention he had been drinking. He's not a bra sniffer by nature, he just happens to be in love with the one wearing that particular bra. The scene is meant to show the depth of his passion, not his perversion, and I think the terrible bout of self loathing that comes later supports this.

I think anyone who enjoys solid characters, beautifully rendered scenes and the soul deep and bittersweet longing that comes with first love will enjoy this series. It's real a gem in my opinion.
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Old 2004-05-26, 13:41   Link #113
TronDD
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Don't get me wrong, I don't think the point of the show is incest. The show, to me, is about emotional conflict both internal and external. They use the theme of incest as the conduit for that. If Nanoka were 25 and not related, we wouldn't have a show.
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Old 2004-05-26, 13:47   Link #114
Nimbleminx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TronDD
Don't get me wrong, I don't think the point of the show is incest. The show, to me, is about emotional conflict both internal and external. They use the theme of incest as the conduit for that. If Nanoka were 25 and not related, we wouldn't have a show.
I agree completely.

I also like the way Nanoka is built as a character as well. She's not a short-skirted 15 year old sex kitten looking for love like her friends are shown to be to a certian degree, (again to show us the difference I think) Her slow awakening to her feelings are beautifully true to life, and a pleasure to watch unfold despite the tragedy that can be sensed looming on the horizon.
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Old 2004-05-26, 23:19   Link #115
Devin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimbleminx

Her slow awakening to her feelings are beautifully true to life, and a pleasure to watch unfold despite the tragedy that can be sensed looming on the horizon.
I'm an optimist, so i really hope the anime ends on happier notes.
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Old 2004-05-27, 00:38   Link #116
Nimbleminx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devin
I'm an optimist, so i really hope the anime ends on happier notes.
Me too, but you know there has to be a few painful realizations for her coming soon.

Judging by the scans from the manga posted earlier in the thread it seems we are left to decide how it all turns out in the end.
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Old 2004-05-27, 04:44   Link #117
Devin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimbleminx
Me too, but you know there has to be a few painful realizations for her coming soon.

Judging by the scans from the manga posted earlier in the thread it seems we are left to decide how it all turns out in the end.

Ahh, the realism, the drama...! I love realistic animes like this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimbleminx
I've been listening.

I truly adore this show. It's a love story first and foremost, and like all good love stories, or any kind of good story for that matter, it has to have a conflict and it happens to be blood relation and age difference. I think the author has done a wonderful job of building a believable story with realistic characters and grounds it with layer upon layer of nuance. I see no fan service at all. The "salacious" details are there to move the story along in a realistic fashion. Others in this thread have pointed that out quite succinctly. To say the show is "about" pedophilia or incest is to miss the point completely. Koshiro isn't a pedophile, we're even given a dyed in the wool character that is to show us the difference.

It's true that he has fallen in love with his sister, but the process began before he knew he was related to her through an intense moment of intimacy, something we find is alien to the cool hearted fella. Even though he is nearly 30 he has never been in love before "from the bottom of his heart" so in the end this is really a first love story for both of them which brings us around to the much ballyhooed "bra sniffing".

I think anyone that doesn't understand the impulse to take in the scent of the one they desire has never really been in love. Smell is the most primal of our senses and linked the closest with our emotional center. Again, he doesn't go looking for it, but finds himself in a situation unable to resit an impulse, not to mention he had been drinking. He's not a bra sniffer by nature, he just happens to be in love with the one wearing that particular bra. The scene is meant to show the depth of his passion, not his perversion, and I think the terrible bout of self loathing that comes later supports this.

I think anyone who enjoys solid characters, beautifully rendered scenes and the soul deep and bittersweet longing that comes with first love will enjoy this series. It's real a gem in my opinion.
I agree 100% with your take on this story. You've pretty much hit the spot on what i thought of it. (i was just too lazy to post a detailed analysis of it.)

Last edited by Devin; 2004-05-27 at 04:56.
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Old 2004-05-27, 13:10   Link #118
kamatari honjo
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i am not saying i don't enjoy this show. i like this show very much, very much.

after reading the comments, i dont know if people watch the show for the same reason i do? or are they?

who is looking forward to the tragic conclusion? this show is about suffering; he suffering constantly in his confusion? these feelings he is discovering inside his heart aren't warm and fuzzy, they only cause him pain and anger. you watch to see him writhe, to be driven further into his corner.

in a love story don't you hope the two people to over come obstacles and get together, even though they can't? do you hope these two get together? if he sucumbs would you still approve because he has found love? if he falls in love afterwards because he can feel real intimacy, do you think he would wish that person was his sister that he cant have, instead of this other woman he has to settle for?

if there was a live action version would you still like this show, would you like the show more?
if a co-worker told you that he fell in love with his sister and it was really helping him to open up his heart, would you say "good for you"?
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Old 2004-05-27, 13:54   Link #119
HaRoRuleZ
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Episode 10 has a new modified ED scene. It is not completely new but it was modified. I did not pay attention to the OP scene so I do not know whether it was modified or not.

Spoiler:
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Old 2004-05-27, 14:15   Link #120
Nimbleminx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamatari honjo
i am not saying i don't enjoy this show. i like this show very much, very much.

after reading the comments, i dont know if people watch the show for the same reason i do? or are they?

I think you'll need to explain the reasons why you are enjoying the show before that can be answered.

who is looking forward to the tragic conclusion?

I can see the inherent tragedy, but I am not looking forward to it. I like both characters too much, but I am realistic about what can and cannot happen.

this show is about suffering; he suffering constantly in his confusion? these feelings he is discovering inside his heart aren't warm and fuzzy, they only cause him pain and anger. you watch to see him writhe, to be driven further into his corner.

I don't think it's about suffering the same way I don't think it's about incest. Suffering is an element in the story, just like suffering is an element in real life.
To mostly quote another wonderful love story, "Life _is_ suffering, Princess. Anyone telling you different is trying to sell you something."

I don't watch to see him writhe, I watch to see him make choices. The fact that he does writhe shows his strength of character. TronDD summed it up nicely, I think.


in a love story don't you hope the two people to over come obstacles and get together, even though they can't?

It depends on the love story. There are so many variations a general answer is not appropriate in my eyes.

do you hope these two get together?

The romantic part of me does, the realistic part of me does not. I know this opinion will be unpopular, but it is honest.

if he sucumbs would you still approve because he has found love?

Approve is not the right word. Understand is closer in my case. I haven't seen the whole series but I can infer from the established characters that he would/will not succumb if his feelings were not reciprocated. He is not a rapist or pedophile. He is not trying to seduce her, but as her feelings grow (it's been well established she is falling for him as well, though she doesn't quite understand it yet) and if she begins to pursue him it will add a level of difficulty to the situation that even the strongest of people would find daunting. Judging by the raw episode I have seen, and taking into account I do not speak Japanese, I believe he will be moving out soon because he feels he has stepped over the line--again trying his best to do what is right.

if he falls in love afterwards because he can feel real intimacy, do you think he would wish that person was his sister that he cant have, instead of this other woman he has to settle for?

Unfortunately I don't I have enough information to speculate. Perhaps after seeing a few more episodes I could make a guess.

if there was a live action version would you still like this show, would you like the show more?

I would watch it, but I don't know if I would enjoy it less or more. There are too many variables from acting to directing.

if a co-worker told you that he fell in love with his sister and it was really helping him to open up his heart, would you say "good for you"?
Not at all. A confidence in that context would probably illicit a long bout of questions, including "Why are you telling me this?" Returning to the subject of show we are discussing, I don't believe Koshiro would confide in a co-worker. Perhaps there is an outside chance in the sympathetic female (I'm sorry I can't remember her name) for she is shown as the judge and jury of all at the end of each episode.
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