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Old 2012-05-26, 19:47   Link #121
james0246
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Originally Posted by Mr. E View Post
There is something everyone has been overlooking, I believe. Before the time skip there were four Yonkou, but that doesn't mean that there are four now. We know BB is one now, but there could be a fifth which we don't know about. There are many unknowns.
Yon means 4, so there is no reason to still call the groups Yonkou if there are more than 4 (otherwise it would be Gokou ).
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Old 2012-05-26, 21:46   Link #122
cj1277
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Neither Mihawk nor Vista were going all out in their brief duel. And it's clear that the former held the latter in high regard by saying only a fool wouldn't know his name. For all intents and purposes, that clash was a stalemate.

Further reasoning as to why I feel Shiliew will beat Mihawk later on is because of BB's DF hunting spree. BB is going for the best DFs, and naturally that would mean that the phoenix and diamond abilities would be on his hit list. It's reasonable to infer that the remnants of the WB pirates will run into the BB pirates and have a showdown. Of course, they'll end up losing/getting killed and that's when BB will seize the opportunity to steal Marco's and Jozu's abilities. Whether he'll assimilate those into himself is something to consider/ponder about, but if not, there's always the option of giving those abilities to his crewmates. Personally, I see the diamond ability being perfect for Shiliew. During the war at Marineford, Mihawk failed to even lay a scratch on Jozu's diamond body which may be an indication that he can't cut diamond. And if that's the case, that's all the more reason for him to lose to Shiliew should they encounter one another. Seeing as how Zoro and Shiliew are going to inevitably clash much later on, Zoro defeating Shiliew would undoubtedly make the former the world's strongest swordsman (and by extension, surpass Mihawk: his mentor).
Not sure how eveyone got on a topic about Mihawk in this ark but i found it interesting to read, the thought of Mihawk becoming Zoro's teacher was annoying for me too but if he loses the greatest swordman title than i guess that can be interesting. However as of right now he is the best swordsman so until otherwise that shoudnt be disputed.

Its a nice guess about the diamond Shiliew part that can fit however it only fits cause it was made to fit. I know Jimbe said the BB crew was going around stealing powerful DF abilities but that doesnt mean the crew is taking the abilities. As it stands now Only BB can aquire more Df abilities and thats not because of his yumi yumi fruit but because of his body. According to Marco in the war of the best he said it was possible for BB to house more than one DF because of his unique body structure so he should be the only one to take the fruits ability. And we dont know if anyone without BB's devil fruit ability can even gain someelses DF powers since BB waited specfically for that one fruit to even start to implement his master plan. Anyway with those things known for sure right now and we not being able to see BB DF ability right now either that seems to me to be too much of a leap.
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Old 2012-05-26, 21:50   Link #123
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Originally Posted by Quakis View Post
I like this theory, especially this line in particular. I remember Zoro (recalling from the anime) mentioned after defeating Mr 1, he'll next cut down diamond. A nice foreshadow and seems like a neat way for Zoro to achieve his dream.
Or Zoro cutting Jozu is more likely, Shiliew doesnt need to have that power for him to move to the next stage.
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Old 2012-05-27, 00:09   Link #124
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Originally Posted by cj1277 View Post
...As it stands now Only BB can aquire more Df abilities and thats not because of his yumi yumi fruit but because of his body. ...
Of course, the yummy-yummy fruit - that's how Blackbeard can eat more than one Devil Fruit, he must find them delicious , unlike everyone else (no offense intended, btw, just found it really funny ).

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Originally Posted by cj1277 View Post
Or Zoro cutting Jozu is more likely, Shiliew doesnt need to have that power for him to move to the next stage.
I was thinking that, too, but I don't know why Zoro would fight Jozu, since he's a (former?) WB pirate, and Luffy's ally by extension. Maybe he'll get to test his sword against diamond in some misunderstanding
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Old 2012-05-27, 00:44   Link #125
ronin myael
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Yon means 4, so there is no reason to still call the groups Yonkou if there are more than 4 (otherwise it would be Gokou ).
i lol'd at this!

shiliew getting jozu's ability? hmmm... that's a fun theory and not that all farfetched. but him defeating mihawke by himself even with that ability? i doubt it. most likely, he would have some help from someone. so if he takes down mihawke with the help of his comrades for example, would that still make him the greatest swordsman in the world? since we're talking about titles here, i'm curious to know as to how it really works. how did mihawke get the title anyway? zoro claims that if he defeats the guy he would gain that title. so does it work much like the same way as boxing titles? when you defeat the champion, you get the belt and the title? assuming that these matches are one-on-one, but what if they're not? let's say mihawke was taken down by the blackbeard pirates, what would happen to his title as the greatest swordsman? would it pass on to those who defeated him? but which one? i'm getting confused by own question?
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Old 2012-05-27, 00:57   Link #126
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but him defeating mihawke by himself even with that ability? i doubt it.
Why not?

For Shiryuu to be considered a 'final'-type boss, he would need to be at least as strong as Mihawk.

Just because the BB pirates decided to take down WB together, quickly and efficiently, doesn't mean that's the only way they know how to fight.
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Old 2012-05-27, 06:35   Link #127
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Originally Posted by cj1277 View Post
Or Zoro cutting Jozu is more likely, Shiliew doesnt need to have that power for him to move to the next stage.
It could go either way. I'm fine with anything as long as the setup is done well and Zoro eventually gets to cut a strong diamond based opponent. Shiliew just seems a more preferable character for me, assuming the BB pirates are some of the 'end game' enemies and appear set up as rivals toward the Strawhats. Though as you say (I think?) he doesn't need it, and even that would be an interesting direction if he's a tougher opponent to cut down without that DF ability, despite Zoro possibly cutting diamond beforehand.
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Old 2012-05-27, 06:51   Link #128
ronin myael
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Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
Why not?

For Shiryuu to be considered a 'final'-type boss, he would need to be at least as strong as Mihawk.

Just because the BB pirates decided to take down WB together, quickly and efficiently, doesn't mean that's the only way they know how to fight.
well for one thing, mihawke is said to be the strongest swordsman in the world and when oda says so, he means it. he's not kubo who messes up power levels all the time. shiliew is said to be a proficient swordsman but not one of the best in existence. he was notorious for his cruelty and brutality. his strength is also said to be equal to that of magellan's but i think magellan has the slight advantage. after all, it was magellan who managed to imprison him. but if we're simply talking about sword fighting skills and the title of greatest swordsman in the world, i doubt he could take down mihawke without some cheating involved. shiliew is manipulative, deceitful and cunning. if he does manage to defeat mihawke by himself, he'd do it without the lack of vile schemes.

as for whitebeard being taken down by the blackbeard pirates, it wasn't a choice, it was the only choice because not one of them could take down edward newgate all by himself. have you forgotten the number of life threatening injuries he took and yet he still kept on overpowering his enemies? and to think the guy was old and ill. imagine how powerful he was when he was younger.
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Last edited by ronin myael; 2012-05-27 at 07:04.
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Old 2012-05-27, 07:06   Link #129
cj1277
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[QUOTE=randomlex;4177997]Of course, the yummy-yummy fruit - that's how Blackbeard can eat more than one Devil Fruit, he must find them delicious , unlike everyone else (no offense intended, btw, just found it really funny ).



lol, yummy yummy (dont know how many times this joke been used here but its my first time seeing it )
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Old 2012-05-27, 07:12   Link #130
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Originally Posted by Quakis View Post
It could go either way. I'm fine with anything as long as the setup is done well and Zoro eventually gets to cut a strong diamond based opponent. Shiliew just seems a more preferable character for me, assuming the BB pirates are some of the 'end game' enemies and appear set up as rivals toward the Strawhats. Though as you say (I think?) he doesn't need it, and even that would be an interesting direction if he's a tougher opponent to cut down without that DF ability, despite Zoro possibly cutting diamond beforehand.
Fair enough, first time i saw jozu ability i thought "yay zoro will be the one to cut him down where mihawk failed" but maybe he won't fight him because of Luffy's relationship with the remaining WB but im still gonna cross my fingers on it.
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Old 2012-05-27, 11:22   Link #131
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Yon means 4, so there is no reason to still call the groups Yonkou if there are more than 4 (otherwise it would be Gokou ).

Aye. of course, that doesn't mean that there couldn't exist emperor-class pirates outside of the "officially" known emperors (in fact we've already seen a few, like Rayleigh, Shiki, and some of Whitebeard's strongest commanders). And who knows, maybe Big Mama and Kaidou have monsters in their crews who are close to them in strength.....



Anyways, about Zoro cutting diamond: I remember discussing this many times in the past with guys like James. While I also highly doubt that he'll ever fight Jozu, I think a good way for our swordsman friend to test the results of his post-skip strength would be for him to slice through seastone, which is known to be as hard as diamond, in case anyone forgot. It's also possible that the alloy for future models of the pacifistas (which I believe is made of Wapometal, but that hasn't actually been confirmed aside from Franky's body) may be as strong as diamond as well.....
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Old 2012-05-27, 13:12   Link #132
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
since we're talking about titles here, i'm curious to know as to how it really works. how did mihawke get the title anyway? zoro claims that if he defeats the guy he would gain that title. so does it work much like the same way as boxing titles? when you defeat the champion, you get the belt and the title? assuming that these matches are one-on-one, but what if they're not? let's say mihawke was taken down by the blackbeard pirates, what would happen to his title as the greatest swordsman? would it pass on to those who defeated him? but which one? i'm getting confused by own question?
Technically, there's no actual proof that Mihawk is the world's strongest swordsman, despite the fact that he's labelled by the world with that title. We know that he and Shanks used to engage in sword fights that shook the world, but it was never stated that Mihawk defeated him. Mihawk chooses not to duel with Shanks anymore because he's one-armed which he deems unfair. But that doesn't really mean much seeing as how Shanks has risen to Yonkou status despite suffering a physical handicap. I'm not going to get into a debate of Mihawk vs. Shanks because that's been done a gazillion times and it goes nowhere. But Mihawk's title doesn't automatically suggest he'd beat guys like Shanks and Rayleigh. All it says is that Mihawk is the absolute best in swordsmanship, until proven otherwise.

I don't see the problem with Shiliew defeating Mihawk legitimately. By that point in the series, Oda has to establish the BB pirates as credible threats that are the real deal. Call it underhanded tactics or whatever you like, but when it comes to battles to the death there is no such thing as playing fair; it's anything goes, no-holds barred. Shiliew may resort to doing something that's considered dishonorable in a sword duel, but in the end if Mihawk loses that's that. He gets stripped of his title and Shiliew claims it with no questions asked. That's how it works.
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Old 2012-05-27, 13:41   Link #133
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Well even in boxing and other fighting sports, you can say that someone is the champion and best fighter in the world, but that is only limited to the fighters that the world actually knows. There's probably more than a few people that are much stronger fighters than the strongest fighters but since the world doesn't know about them, they are never counted.

Mihawk might be in the same situation. There might be Wano samurai as strong as Mihawk if not stronger, but they close themselves off to the world so those strong ones don't get the recognition they deserve.
That being said, Oda tells us he is the strongest so we can just take his word for it.
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Old 2012-05-27, 13:49   Link #134
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Speaking of Yonkou-level, since Shanks is a Yonkou, then Rayleigh should be at the same level or stronger seeing as he was second in command to Roger. He just chose not to assert himself in the new world. As MarvelB said above, it makes sense that there would be other powerful characters as strong as the Yonkou and the Admirals...
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Old 2012-05-27, 16:02   Link #135
james0246
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
Aye. of course, that doesn't mean that there couldn't exist emperor-class pirates outside of the "officially" known emperors (in fact we've already seen a few, like Rayleigh, Shiki, and some of Whitebeard's strongest commanders). And who knows, maybe Big Mama and Kaidou have monsters in their crews who are close to them in strength.....
The Yonkou are named because they are not only individually powerful, but because they have crews of such strength that they can rival entire regiments of soldiers. There can, of course, be individuals (or small crews) of sufficient strength to equal an Admiral or one of the Yonkou (I think a case could be made for Enel being of a similar level to an Admiral or Yonkou just without sufficient Haki).
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Old 2012-05-27, 17:20   Link #136
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The Yonkou are named because they are not only individually powerful, but because they have crews of such strength that they can rival entire regiments of soldiers. There can, of course, be individuals (or small crews) of sufficient strength to equal an Admiral or one of the Yonkou (I think a case could be made for Enel being of a similar level to an Admiral or Yonkou just without sufficient Haki).
Enel doesn't have haki?
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Old 2012-05-27, 17:49   Link #137
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Old 2012-05-27, 18:11   Link #138
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^lol

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shiliew is manipulative, deceitful and cunning. if he does manage to defeat mihawke by himself, he'd do it without the lack of vile schemes.
Shiryuu is probably not strong enough to defeat Mihawk at the current time although I think he is stronger than Zoro. But we can expect him to grow by leaps and bounds in power..just like the Strawhats will, so it's not really a stretch to imagine him defeating Mihawk legitimately.

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(I think a case could be made for Enel being of a similar level to an Admiral or Yonkou just without sufficient Haki).
Even only in terms of devil fruit proficiency, I highly doubt that Enel is at a similar level to an Admiral or Yonkou.

He may be destructive but he is not as well rounded and certainly does not possess a decent enough defense for a top tier fighter.
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Old 2012-05-27, 19:32   Link #139
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Good enough to fight an admiral. What I really want to see is Mihawk going to Wano island to see if he really is the strongest swordsman.
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Old 2012-05-27, 22:33   Link #140
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Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
^lol



Shiryuu is probably not strong enough to defeat Mihawk at the current time although I think he is stronger than Zoro. But we can expect him to grow by leaps and bounds in power..just like the Strawhats will, so it's not really a stretch to imagine him defeating Mihawk legitimately.



Even only in terms of devil fruit proficiency, I highly doubt that Enel is at a similar level to an Admiral or Yonkou.

He may be destructive but he is not as well rounded and certainly does not possess a decent enough defense for a top tier fighter.
...I have to disagree Enel showed amazing cunning, proficiency, and diversity in his saga. Not sure why people think he isn't at admiral level. The Admirals haven't done anything overly spectacular that he didn't do in Skypia to justify his lack of ability.
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