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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 51 48.11%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 37 34.91%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 11 10.38%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 4.72%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.94%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.94%
Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-05-29, 09:29   Link #201
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Kimidori View Post
so you are implying Kariya is an inhumane monster while pretending to be human? I really don't see Kariya like that.
Maybe inhumane is a bit much, but I think he's a lowly coward who hides his resentment and jealousy under the pretense of heroism. You just have to watch him killing Aoi to see what kind of feelings he's been hiding.
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Old 2012-05-29, 09:45   Link #202
Haak
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Those feelings that he kept bottled up were supposed to be for Tokiomi and Zouken. If he had unleashed it on them like he actually wanted to then we'd be calling him a hero...
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Old 2012-05-29, 09:56   Link #203
Altima of the Gates
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
To quote myself:



I really want to avoid having a morality discussion here though.
Problem is Oilin, Kariya already did this a long time ago. He deliberately rejected pursuing the love he had for Aoi so that she wouldn't have the possibility of being brought into the dark history of the Matou. There is so many interesting things there to extrapolate. His anger at Tokiomi can also be seen as a loss of trust because he knows the twisted nature of magi.

I'm sure when he found out Aoi had *two* daughters he was very worried with his knowledge of how the society works, since he knew about her special trait about having superbabies. For him, even if he had been Aoi's husband, he couldn't escape the very real possibility that the child would be a powerhouse, and he had rejected that path to avoid being close to his rotten family. But children born with great power aren't allowed to live normal lives due to the dregs of the Association putting a Sealing Designation out and coming after them if they don't have the "protection" of an affiliated house, in order to experiment on them. So I doubt many could understand the feelings Kariya had coming into this. He wanted to take the three females away from this situation, but his fatal flaw was that he didn't understand that the girls loved even a man wedded to the rules as Tokiomi was, and that Kariya had no way to protect them afterward.

You might be misunderstanding a good part of Kariya's character, although i can't blame you seeing as very important points are missing from the Tokiomi/Aoi/Kariya relationship from the anime. It's really a great conflict.
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Old 2012-05-29, 10:29   Link #204
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Those feelings that he kept bottled up were supposed to be for Tokiomi and Zouken. If he had unleashed it on them like he actually wanted to then we'd be calling him a hero...
That's the thing. Tokiomi doesn't deserve to be put on the same pedestal as Zouken, but Kariya doesn't care about that since it makes his hatred and resentment for Tokiomi more "acceptable". Also, if his intentions were truly heroic then he wouldn't have killed Aoi in his despair. If we're talking heroic, Kiritsugu is probably the only master that comes close to it.

But don't get me wrong, his success or failure in saving Sakura is irrelevant to what I'm trying to say. It's his insistence on denial that bothers me.

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Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
You might be misunderstanding a good part of Kariya's character, although i can't blame you seeing as very important points are missing from the Tokiomi/Aoi/Kariya relationship from the anime. It's really a great conflict.
Be that as it may, can you really say that Kariya harbored no resentment towards Tokiomi for that fact that Aoi loved Tokiomi more than himself? And can you really say that his love for her was truly selfless, as opposed to possessive?

It's one thing to hold off a relationship for personal reasons, but it's another thing to find out that your love will never be returned no matter what you do.

Even if you say that he made a lot of sacrifices for the protection of Aoi, Rin, and Sakura, isn't his good will just another extension of his unrequited love for Aoi? Assuming that, I think this latest episode made the true nature of that love all too clear.
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Old 2012-05-29, 10:46   Link #205
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That's the thing. Tokiomi doesn't deserve to be put on the same pedestal as Zouken, but Kariya doesn't care about that since it makes his hatred and resentment for Tokiomi more "acceptable". Also, if his intentions were truly heroic then he wouldn't have killed Aoi in his despair. If we're talking heroic, Kiritsugu is probably the only master that comes close to it.

But don't get me wrong, his success or failure in saving Sakura is irrelevant to what I'm trying to say. It's his insistence on denial that bothers me.
It's difficult to say whether or not Tokiomi deserves to be put on the same pedestal since we don't know how Tokiomi would've acted if he knew what giving Sakura to Zouken really meant, but I wouldn't at all be surprised if he acted the same way anyway (In which case he'd be as bad as Kiritsugu's father).

If we're talking ultimate and true altruism then Kariya definitely isn't that since he didn't prepare to be hated for his actions. But that's impossible and completely unreasonable for someone like him to prepare for so at most he simply prepared to not be acknowledged at all and die knowing that he did the right thing and that's the important point. The only reason he was able to keep his sanity was because he believed he was doing the right thing. But being told that you're actually a selfish person (and by the person you loved) is pretty much going to shatter the last thing you had that was keeping you sane. The fact that he killed Aoi isn't an indication of his true feelings. It was an indication of how little support his true feelings had.
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Old 2012-05-29, 11:11   Link #206
Qilin
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It's difficult to say whether or not Tokiomi deserves to be put on the same pedestal since we don't know how Tokiomi would've acted if he knew what giving Sakura to Zouken really meant, but I wouldn't at all be surprised if he acted the same way anyway (In which case he'd be as bad as Kiritsugu's father).
Tokiomi did what he believed was best for his two daughters as Altima of the Gate's post indicated quite nicely. Compared to Zouken, who acts with the full intention of inflicting suffering, Tokiomi's values are just different (moral relativity ahoy).

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
If we're talking ultimate and true altruism then Kariya definitely isn't that since he didn't prepare to be hated for his actions. But that's impossible and completely unreasonable for someone like him to prepare for so at most he simply prepared to not be acknowledged at all and die knowing that he did the right thing and that's the important point. The only reason he was able to keep his sanity was because he believed he was doing the right thing. But being told that you're actually a selfish person (and by the person you loved) is pretty much going to shatter the last thing you had that was keeping you sane. The fact that he killed Aoi isn't an indication of his true feelings. It was an indication of how little support his true feelings had.
Insanity seems like a cheap excuse. Is it typical of insane people to act completely outside their range of thought? Just because he's insane it automatically means his actions don't reflect his true feelings? What makes this case any different from him just venting his pent up emotions?

In fact, I'd turn your claim around and say that not only was he not prepared to be hated for his actions. He wanted to be loved for it. That's what I believe he wished, along with killing Tokiomi. "Saving Sakura" was just a means to an end for him, imo.
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Old 2012-05-29, 11:32   Link #207
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Tokiomi did what he believed was best for his two daughters as Altima of the Gate's post indicated quite nicely. Compared to Zouken, who acts with the full intention of inflicting suffering, Tokiomi's values are just different (moral relativity ahoy).
True Tokiomi doesn't deserve nearly as much hate but I think most of the hate Kariya had for Tkiomi was passed over from his hate for Zouken, anyway.

Quote:
Insanity seems like a cheap excuse. Is it typical of insane people to act completely outside their range of thought? Just because he's insane it automatically means his actions don't reflect his true feelings? What makes this case any different from him just venting his pent up emotions?
Well yes. Your true feelings make up of both your desires and your inhibitions. Your inhibitions (which we all have to varying degrees) are just as much a part of you. To lose your inhibitions means you're not yourself any more. Do you really think that Kariya's true feelings involved killing Aoi? All killing Aoi really proved is that he built up a lot of anger. But just because he built up that anger doesn't make his any less of a person. How could he not be angry? He wasn't hiding his anger at the pretence of his heroism. His anger was a direct result of his act of heroism.

Quote:
In fact, I'd turn your claim around and say that not only was he not prepared to be hated for his actions. He wanted to be loved for it. That's what I believe he wished, along with killing Tokiomi. "Saving Sakura" was just a means to an end for him, imo.
So he's willing to sacrifice himself and go under immense torture? I'm pretty sure he was genuinely distraught at seeing all those worms covering Sakura from head to toe in basement in Episode 1. And his first reaction was to try and jump in there to save her.
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Old 2012-05-29, 11:38   Link #208
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Just want to point out, in the LN it's very clear that Kariya did not actually intend to harm Aoi (it's complicated, but he's so far-gone in his insanity that he didn't even recognize Aoi as Aoi), and once he realizes he is doing so, he instantly releases her. This is different in the anime, where it seems like he's doing it on purpose.

Well, I guess for us LN readers who liked Kariya very much, we would rush to defend him even if the anime portrays him rather poorly.
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Old 2012-05-29, 11:42   Link #209
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Kariya insanity, however, is leaving him with somewhat of an addled mind. To the point were he is not recognizing thing, people, and quite possibly has some of his memories erased, and/or imprinted (both memory and emotion) from Zouken. Since Kariya is basically a puppet of Zouken at this point, just barely holding on to anything in an attempt to remain sane in his stated goal to "Save Saruka", he's not all there anymore.

The description of his point of view at his confrontation with Aoi I think makes it clear that is sense of reality is quite gone. To the point he cannot identify her nor entirely comprehend the situation...at least until he snaps back to his senses (too late). It is possible that was Zouken, since he seems to get off on that sort of thing. Which means the emotions that fueled that throttling, may not have been Kariya's at all.

As this is a war and to win that war Kariya would have to kill Tokiomi (at least more than likely since killing Archer seem like it would be vastly more difficult) in order to get to the Grail that Zouken wants in order to fulfill Kariya's desire to have Saruka be free of Zouken. Killing Tokiomi was something Kariya would have to do anyway. And since he knew Tokiomi, he could at least get some focus in his addled brain on a target. Especially since he has such a hard time with Berserker. Focus is about all he could have left from what I can understand. And Berserker, unfortunately, has another focus....Saber.


Zouken, on the other hand, just wants to see what happened to the Grail he remembers. So send in someone you think will get his servant killed quickly to speed up the process. But, does Zouken even remember why he wanted the Grail in the first place?
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Old 2012-05-29, 11:45   Link #210
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But, does Zouken even remember why he wanted the Grail in the first place?
that question is answer in HF.
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Old 2012-05-29, 12:37   Link #211
Qilin
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Well yes. Your true feelings make up of both your desires and your inhibitions. Your inhibitions (which we all have to varying degrees) are just as much a part of you. To lose your inhibitions means you're not yourself any more. Do you really think that Kariya's true feelings involved killing Aoi? All killing Aoi really proved is that he built up a lot of anger. But just because he built up that anger doesn't make his any less of a person. How could he not be angry? He wasn't hiding his anger at the pretence of his heroism. His anger was a direct result of his act of heroism.
Oh, yes. But one's desires are a sizable portion of one's feelings. Even without its regulatory mechanisms, it's still very much reflective of the contents of one's thoughts when expressed.

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So he's willing to sacrifice himself and go under immense torture? I'm pretty sure he was genuinely distraught at seeing all those worms covering Sakura from head to toe in basement in Episode 1. And his first reaction was to try and jump in there to save her.
I never denied that he consciously wished to save Sakura from her suffering. What I meant is that his desire to sacrifice himself for Sakura was merely an extension of his love for Aoi, and that this love was indeed selfish in nature.

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Kariya insanity, however, is leaving him with somewhat of an addled mind. To the point were he is not recognizing thing, people, and quite possibly has some of his memories erased, and/or imprinted (both memory and emotion) from Zouken. Since Kariya is basically a puppet of Zouken at this point, just barely holding on to anything in an attempt to remain sane in his stated goal to "Save Saruka", he's not all there anymore.

The description of his point of view at his confrontation with Aoi I think makes it clear that is sense of reality is quite gone. To the point he cannot identify her nor entirely comprehend the situation...at least until he snaps back to his senses (too late). It is possible that was Zouken, since he seems to get off on that sort of thing. Which means the emotions that fueled that throttling, may not have been Kariya's at all.
If that's the truth, then I don't think I can argue with that. Still, that just takes out a lot of the scene's drama for me. This makes the whole scene feel less human, and more artificial.

However, I am still well convinced that the hatred he expressed towards Tokiomi reflected his genuine feelings, albeit considerably unrestricted. Or am I wrong?
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Old 2012-05-29, 13:33   Link #212
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Ah, to all sempai-tachi, the newbie here has some question to ask about Tohsaka Tokiomi.


Though Tokiomi did not say it but I think the novel stated quite clear that Tokiomi did not trust Zouken and sees this old geezer as a threat isn't it? (Chapter 14 told by Kirei)

So, the question here is that if Tokiomi did not trust Zouken , why did he gave Sakura to that evil geezer?


Moreover, Tokiomi claim to his self as if the Matou will protect and raise sakura to be great magi for sure. (Chapter 12) What's make he think of it that way?


I think that I may miss some information or misinterpret something otherwise this will be too weird. So, can you correct me guys.
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Old 2012-05-29, 14:26   Link #213
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Oh, yes. But one's desires are a sizable portion of one's feelings. Even without its regulatory mechanisms, it's still very much reflective of the contents of one's thoughts when expressed.
Indeed and that's why I said those feelings were intended for Tokiomi and Zouken, so I don't think he was a coward trying to hide his anger or resentment. Or rather, I don't think the fact that he had a lot of anger in him proves that that he was a coward trying to hide that anger.

Quote:
I never denied that he consciously wished to save Sakura from her suffering. What I meant is that his desire to sacrifice himself for Sakura was merely an extension of his love for Aoi, and that this love was indeed selfish in nature.
Certainly that was a major factor but I don't think he's the type of person that would do nothing and just watch a child suffer like that so I think he would've tried to save her even if she was someone else's child. The fact that she was Aoi's child only helped him keep his sanity.

Well I suppose we'll see. If Kariya has any sanity left in him then it's a question of what he's going to do now. Is he going to keep fighting to save Sakura or is he just going to completely break down?
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Old 2012-05-29, 14:50   Link #214
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Well, Kariya's target in the war is gone. And to get full, undistracted, use out of Berserker in his effort to win the war and thus the Grail and keep his end of the deal to save Sakura....He must throw Berserker against Saber. Otherwise Berserker will go for her anyway and it serves no purpose for Kariya. So focusing on Saber is the only thing he can do now to fulfill his goal in the war.
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Old 2012-05-29, 14:52   Link #215
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Originally Posted by gim View Post
Ah, to all sempai-tachi, the newbie here has some question to ask about Tohsaka Tokiomi.


Though Tokiomi did not say it but I think the novel stated quite clear that Tokiomi did not trust Zouken and sees this old geezer as a threat isn't it? (Chapter 14 told by Kirei)

So, the question here is that if Tokiomi did not trust Zouken , why did he gave Sakura to that evil geezer?


Moreover, Tokiomi claim to his self as if the Matou will protect and raise sakura to be great magi for sure. (Chapter 12) What's make he think of it that way?


I think that I may miss some information or misinterpret something otherwise this will be too weird. So, can you correct me guys.
because the 2 are not mutually exclusive.

Old Mage = Dangerous Mage, Mages don't get Zouken's age by being nice. You would have to be a complete idiot to not be weary of a mage of Zouken's age. However it was also true that would when kariya left the Matou's, the Matous need a new Heir as the other brother and his son (shinji) has no talent as mages (almost no mage circuits).
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Old 2012-05-29, 16:42   Link #216
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I do seem to recall the chase scene between Rider and Saber to happen on the grounds of the manor in the woods. The blades on the wheels chopped down trees which were replaced by rocks here in the anime.
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Old 2012-05-29, 16:54   Link #217
mAc Chaos
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Originally Posted by gim View Post
Ah, to all sempai-tachi, the newbie here has some question to ask about Tohsaka Tokiomi.


Though Tokiomi did not say it but I think the novel stated quite clear that Tokiomi did not trust Zouken and sees this old geezer as a threat isn't it? (Chapter 14 told by Kirei)

So, the question here is that if Tokiomi did not trust Zouken , why did he gave Sakura to that evil geezer?


Moreover, Tokiomi claim to his self as if the Matou will protect and raise sakura to be great magi for sure. (Chapter 12) What's make he think of it that way?


I think that I may miss some information or misinterpret something otherwise this will be too weird. So, can you correct me guys.
Well, assuming Tokiomi isn't an idiot...

He probably means that Zouken is just powerful as a mage; ie., in a competition in the Holy Grail War, he's just a really good opponent. Not that he's an evil demon.
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Old 2012-05-29, 18:00   Link #218
Touko
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Originally Posted by gim View Post
Ah, to all sempai-tachi, the newbie here has some question to ask about Tohsaka Tokiomi.


Though Tokiomi did not say it but I think the novel stated quite clear that Tokiomi did not trust Zouken and sees this old geezer as a threat isn't it? (Chapter 14 told by Kirei)

So, the question here is that if Tokiomi did not trust Zouken , why did he gave Sakura to that evil geezer?


Moreover, Tokiomi claim to his self as if the Matou will protect and raise sakura to be great magi for sure. (Chapter 12) What's make he think of it that way?


I think that I may miss some information or misinterpret something otherwise this will be too weird. So, can you correct me guys.
The Three Great Houses were idealistic and noble. They respect each other.

Tohsaka had no idea that the Matou's had fallen so far from their original ideals, so he still trusted them. The whole point of this is supposed to be a tragic dramatic irony. In other words, Tokiomi thought he did his daughter a great blessing, but in truth, he threw her into a fire pit.

The "Tokiomi told Kirei that Zouken was dangerous" was a tactical assessment.

Zouken is many times the magus Tokiomi or Kirei is.
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Old 2012-05-29, 20:40   Link #219
Qilin
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Certainly that was a major factor but I don't think he's the type of person that would do nothing and just watch a child suffer like that so I think he would've tried to save her even if she was someone else's child. The fact that she was Aoi's child only helped him keep his sanity.
Would Kariya willingly undergo all the suffering he went through even if Sakura wasn't Aoi's daughter?

That's all a matter of interpretation, though admittedly, my view is as well.

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Well I suppose we'll see. If Kariya has any sanity left in him then it's a question of what he's going to do now. Is he going to keep fighting to save Sakura or is he just going to completely break down?
I'll have to agree with this.

I personally think he's spent (since I can't imagine anymore ways for Urobuchi to torture his character), but he could just as easily die in a blaze of glory. Who knows? If Kariya manages to retain his goal of saving Sakura after all he's been through, I might reconsider my claims.
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Old 2012-05-29, 21:09   Link #220
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There is also Berserker to consider. His actions effect Kariya a lot. His madness also seems to be effecting Kariya. Berserker is barely contained rage most of the time.
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