AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Gundam

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-08-01, 22:33   Link #61
ReddyRedWolf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
And now that you mention it, where's this bull about him trying to capture a live Vagan? He didn't say a damn thing about the Vagan he saved Max from in episode 24, or anything about the Vagan in episode 25. Hell, the only one whose shown any kind of initiative in trying to capture a Vagan soldier is Asem.
You have poor memory. Flit cut of a head/cockpit off a Vagan MS to get intel from a live Vegan preventing him from self destructing. What Kio is doing now.

The pilot committed suicide than be taken alive.
ReddyRedWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-01, 22:38   Link #62
Revolutionist
Puppet Master
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Behind You
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
You have poor memory. Flit cut of a head/cockpit off a Vagan MS to get intel from a live Vegan preventing him from self destructing. What Kio is doing now.

The pilot committed suicide than be taken alive.
Your point being?

Flit did that because he wanted to get his hands on the helmet technology, not because he cared for the pilot's life like Kio...
__________________
I cannot give you back your homes, or restore your dead to life, but perhaps I can give you justice, in the name of our King. ~ Ned Stark
Revolutionist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-01, 22:41   Link #63
ReddyRedWolf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Your point being?

Flit did that because he wanted to get his hands on the helmet technology, not because he cared for the pilot's life like Kio...
He didn't know about the Mu-zell helmet until he got his hands on it. Try again.
ReddyRedWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-01, 22:48   Link #64
Gomenasai
The Poster-guy
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
By pissing everybody off killing civilians left and right. Really logical and rational. When they can just go there and announce to the media about the Mars colonization cover up.
Are you trying to tell me that Vagan military and Vagan civilians are the same thing? You are quoting this as if the civilians made an irrational decision, which would only be the case if they knew exactly what was going to happen.

From Vagan standpoint, having a leader that could lead them to earth, would sound like a godsend to the people. It's the same with Nazi Germany. The people thought Hitler was great because he made a bunch of promises that sounded wonderful. Yes, the people were tricked with petty lies, but that doesn't mean they are at blame for the actions of a deranged madman.
Gomenasai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-01, 22:48   Link #65
Rising Dragon
Goat Herder
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The middle of the Middle of Nowhere
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
You have poor memory. Flit cut of a head/cockpit off a Vagan MS to get intel from a live Vegan preventing him from self destructing. What Kio is doing now.

The pilot committed suicide than be taken alive.
Poor memory my ass, I just watched the episode, I still have ALL of them on file. Yes, he cuts off a Dorado head and prevents it from detonating along with the rest of the mobile suit. But he doesn't say he did it to capture the pilot. He in fact doesn't say a damn thing about the pilot. In fact, no one says a damn thing about the pilot, just the person who dragged him out of the cockpit shook their head to indicate that no, he did not survive. Flit didn't even bat an eyelash, he was more interested in the helmet he was wearing.

I don't give a crap about whether the pilot commit suicide. I do give a crap about the facts, and what you're saying doesn't mesh up with what's being presented.

Amendment: In the next episode Flit does mention said dead pilot. He does not, however, say he intended to capture him, for intel or otherwise, only mentioning him concerning the impending autopsy report that may confirm his suspicions on what damage the helmet does.
__________________
Rising Dragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-01, 22:54   Link #66
kakakka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
He didn't know about the Mu-zell helmet until he got his hands on it. Try again.
It was to get their hands on any info they can get. Technology highlighted on the episode.

Nevertheless, it was not of compassion that he retrieved the Dorado head.
kakakka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-01, 22:55   Link #67
ReddyRedWolf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
I don't give a crap about whether the pilot commit suicide. I do give a crap about the facts, and what you're saying doesn't mesh up with what's being presented.
Fact Flit hasn't killed a defenseless Vegan in his entire life. He took that Vegan to interrogate for intel not love him.

You don't care about these facts.
ReddyRedWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-01, 22:57   Link #68
kakakka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Fact Flit hasn't killed a defenseless Vegan in his entire life.
He killed many Vagans in Gen 1 alone.
kakakka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-01, 23:01   Link #69
Rising Dragon
Goat Herder
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The middle of the Middle of Nowhere
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Fact Flit hasn't killed a defenseless Vegan in his entire life. He took that Vegan to interrogate for intel not love him.

You don't care about these facts.
Doesn't matter that he hasn't killed a defenseless Vagan. What does matter is that he intends to wipe the whole lot of them out, regardless of their suffering. Just because he hasn't acted out on it successfully mean that it's right for him to say such things or advocate the practice of such things to other people like the woman he's mentoring or his children and grandchildren. Like Revolutionist said, genocide is wrong. Be it in advocation of it or practice of it, it is still inherently wrong.
__________________
Rising Dragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-01, 23:06   Link #70
ReddyRedWolf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by kakakka View Post
He killed many Vagans in Gen 1 alone.
All combatants. Didn't I say Flit did not kill in cold blood.

There is a difference between somebody who fights back to somebody who can't.

Flit hates Decil and defeated him but with his conscience can't kill a defenseless 7 year old right there and there.

Gerra Zoi tried to bait Flit to shoot but Flit couldn't just pull the trigger.

You are shooting at him yeah you are an acceptable target. Otherwise Flit still has his morals and a professional soldier despite being jaded by years of Vegan atrocities.
ReddyRedWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-01, 23:08   Link #71
Rising Dragon
Goat Herder
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The middle of the Middle of Nowhere
Age: 27
Geera Zoi isn't your best example because chances are Flit would've pulled the trigger within a few more seconds. Maybe as a mishap due to how much he was trembling in fury or maybe deliberate or both, but chances are he would've fired. He simply didn't get the chance because Grodek shot first, so we'll never know for sure. Try again.
__________________
Rising Dragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-01, 23:24   Link #72
ReddyRedWolf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Geera Zoi isn't your best example because chances are Flit would've pulled the trigger within a few more seconds. Maybe as a mishap due to how much he was trembling in fury or maybe deliberate or both, but chances are he would've fired. He simply didn't get the chance because Grodek shot first, so we'll never know for sure. Try again.
By that Grodek saved Flit from ever crossing the line. Don't you get it Flit hesitates killing the defenseless as he would become what he hates. Somebody who takes lives easily.

Even when Decil returned he was a non-issue in the big picture. Flit doesn't even bother to sortie in AGE-1 except when Assemu and Kio are in danger.

Flit will come the fork once again and he will hesitate.

For now nobody can convince Flit Vegans are worth saving. For that to happen reconciliation must start from the Vegan side to show they have redeeming qualities.

Flit is right whatever their issues it doesn't justify their acts of mass murder.
ReddyRedWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-01, 23:35   Link #73
Rising Dragon
Goat Herder
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The middle of the Middle of Nowhere
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
By that Grodek saved Flit from ever crossing the line. Don't you get it Flit hesitates killing the defenseless as he would become what he hates. Somebody who takes lives easily.
Well, Grodek isn't around to stop him from crossing the line now, is he?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Flit will come the fork once again and he will hesitate.
Maybe he will. Maybe he won't. But back then, Flit was a teenager who was relatively unexperienced with the true horrors of war, who had JUST lost someone important to him and he certainly wasn't acting rational and wasn't in his right mind.

Honestly, I don't think he'll hesitate. He's grown up a long way and is far more experienced in combat. To quote Andrew Waltfeld and countless other people from real life who have been in the military, "it gets easier". That is, pulling the trigger, killing people, etc... it gets easier. And Flit, who is now much older, much more experienced, and most importantly, has experienced a lot more loss in his life (from Grodek to Woolf to his own son for a time), so he's considerably harder than he was when he was 14 in generation 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Flit is right whatever their issues it doesn't justify their acts of mass murder.
This much I can agree on, but it goes both ways--what he's experienced doesn't justify any possible acts of mass murder he could commit. For example, the millions of people who were murdered in horrific events such as the Holocaust were terrible, terrible acts, but did people let the victims do the same to the race or nation of people whose members did those same acts? Generally, no they weren't allowed, and the few times where it DID come to pass were also seen as horrible, condemnable acts.

So yes, the Vagans' suffering does not justify their actions during the war. Likewise, Flit's suffering would not justify any similar actions. Just because he hasn't done them yet doesn't change that simple fact.
__________________
Rising Dragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-01, 23:36   Link #74
kakakka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
All combatants. Didn't I say Flit did not kill in cold blood.
He did kill them in cold blood. They're aliens/monsters afterall that killed his family.

Quote:
Otherwise Flit still has his morals and a professional soldier despite being jaded by years of Vegan atrocities.
That's also the thing I find interesting. He has a strong set of morals. It's not just about his hatred against Vagans, but also how he viewed them as total monsters. No question, Flit only wants the best for those dear to him. He was a nice kid and later a model commander. But that strong moral, the strong sense of being a saviour, also what drives him to want the Vagan gone. Now that he's not a soldier and in his old years, I look forward to what he will do. It wouldn't be long till he's gone, and now that Asemu and Kio has diverted away from his vision plan for them, Flit will probably do something to see the Vagans eliminated in his life time.
kakakka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-01, 23:53   Link #75
kakakka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
By that Grodek saved Flit from ever crossing the line. Don't you get it Flit hesitates killing the defenseless as he would become what he hates. Somebody who takes lives easily.
He was teenager that time. But later, we see how he wanted them gone; his new saviour oath.

Quote:
Even when Decil returned he was a non-issue in the big picture. Flit doesn't even bother to sortie in AGE-1 except when Assemu and Kio are in danger.
On the side about Flit vs Desil, it also shows how it's not about his hatred on Desil for using Yurin anymore that drives Flit.

Quote:
Flit will come the fork once again and he will hesitate.
He won't.

Quote:
For now nobody can convince Flit Vegans are worth saving. For that to happen reconciliation must start from the Vegan side to show they have redeeming qualities.
Flit does not care. He viewed them as monsters since Gen 1. Whatever face of redemption they try to show Flit now, it wouldn't justify their nation's acts of murders for decades against the people living in Earth Sphere.
kakakka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-02, 00:15   Link #76
ReddyRedWolf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by kakakka View Post
He did kill them in cold blood. They're aliens/monsters afterall that killed his family.
You don't know the meaning of the term do you? In Cold Blood means premeditated murder.

Flit hasn't murdered anybody yet. In this context Flit hasn't killed non-combatants.
ReddyRedWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-02, 00:22   Link #77
Revolutionist
Puppet Master
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Behind You
I wish you Flit apologists would apply that to the Vagans too, because iirc you guys were saying Fram was a cold blooded murderer by association with Zeheart even though she doesn't have a single enemy combatant kill to her name, much less civilians.
__________________
I cannot give you back your homes, or restore your dead to life, but perhaps I can give you justice, in the name of our King. ~ Ned Stark
Revolutionist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-02, 00:31   Link #78
kakakka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
You don't know the meaning of the term do you? In Cold Blood means premeditated murder.
Well, it has been thrown around. "To kill without remorse" I mean. You didn't say murder.
kakakka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-02, 00:37   Link #79
ReddyRedWolf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by kakakka View Post
Well, it has been thrown around. "To kill without remorse" I mean.
Not applicable in combat.
ReddyRedWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-08-02, 00:40   Link #80
kakakka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Not in my point of view.
kakakka is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
characters

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:36.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.