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Old 2012-06-01, 06:10   Link #41
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Yes I think this could be a very real reason why the concept of youkai is harder for some people to accept here even more so than the fact that is foreign.

I don't know if you ever saw Kurosawa's Throne of Blood but I was thinking how well the witches from Macbeth fit into a Japanese setting.

Exactly
, many of shakespeare's works feature supernatural elements, similiar to what you might see with youkai (EG, the ghost in Hamlet, prospero and ariel in The Tempest, the fairies of A Midsummers Night's Dream etc.)
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Old 2012-06-01, 06:36   Link #42
Triple_R
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With most anime shows I don't like, I'm still able to see why some people do like them (often, it just comes down to a style of sex appeal that doesn't appeal to me, but I can see why it would appeal to somebody of a different perspective or taste).


But there are certain popular anime elements that continue to perplex me (even after I've been an anime fan for seven years or so! ), and given what papermario13689 wrote in his latest post on this thread, this thread is probably as good as any to ask about them:

1) Maids. I don't dislike maids, but I wonder why they show up in all sorts of shows, often fulfilling roles that maids usually don't fill in fiction. Is it just a fetish? Is it due to Japan having a fascination with the very concept of maids, maybe viewing them as an exotic and hence exciting element of European culture that's not common in Japan? I honestly have no idea how common maids are in modern or historical Japan.

2) Nosebleeds. I certainly get what nosebleeds are symbolic of, but I'm mainly curious about why nosebleeds were chosen as a means to convey a character being sexually aroused. I think 0utf0xZer0 once said it was tied to an old wife's tale in Japan. Well, it might be nice if someone actually told that tale (or linked to it on another site), as it might shed some light on why anime equates "bleeding nose" with "sexually aroused".

3) Static romances. That's probably the best way I can put it. In other words, romances that seem to be permanently locked on the "1st base" position. In other words, romances that never progress beyond the shy, blushing stage. I certainly get the cuteness of the "shy, blushing stage", but not letting a romance get beyond it strikes me as being similar to, say, a person wanting to dream about New York City but never actually visit New York City. A good example of a static romance is the main one in Kimi ni Todoke.

4) Tsunderes. Now, I do get tsunderes to a point. I get how the charm of some tsunderes is her slowly getting nicer/friendlier over-time, and that being a neat way to seamlessly blend character development with romance development. But some tsunderes never really change (there's a certain imouto in Ore no Imouto that seems like this ). I do wonder what drives this. Is it just a love of slapstick comedy, and the consistently tsuntsun tsundere is seen as a good vehicle for delivering that? Or is it something deeper than this?


I'll leave it at that. Thankfully, most popular anime elements/tropes I get, and a fair number I really like myself. But the four I mentioned above do continue to perplex me.
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Old 2012-06-01, 06:57   Link #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
1) Maids. I don't dislike maids, but I wonder why they show up in all sorts of shows, often fulfilling roles that maids usually don't fill in fiction. Is it just a fetish? Is it due to Japan having a fascination with the very concept of maids, maybe viewing them as an exotic and hence exciting element of European culture that's not common in Japan? I honestly have no idea how common maids are in modern or historical Japan.
To be fair, there's a lot less maids than there was about 2-3 years ago where there was a 2-3 maid series per season for like 2 years straight. Appeal of maids? Well I guess it's the same deal with the appeal of nurses. Unfortunately, like you, both maids and nurses don't tickle me fancy.

Quote:
2) Nosebleeds. I certainly get what nosebleeds are symbolic of, but I'm mainly curious about why nosebleeds were chosen as a means to convey a character being sexually aroused. I think 0utf0xZer0 once said it was tied to an old wife's tale in Japan. Well, it might be nice if someone actually told that tale (or linked to it on another site), as it might shed some light on why anime equates "bleeding nose" with "sexually aroused".
My theory was that instead of blood rushing straight from your head to your crotch, character is so aroused so quickly that it comes out through the nearest holes i.e. your nose. . But yes, I find nosebloods rather "retarded" and would like a proper response since my theory is very likely to be incorrect.

Quote:
3) Static romances. That's probably the best way I can put it. In other words, romances that seem to be permanently locked on the "1st base" position. In other words, romances that never progress beyond the shy, blushing stage. I certainly get the cuteness of the "shy, blushing stage", but not letting a romance get beyond it strikes me as being similar to, say, a person wanting to dream about New York City but never actually visit New York City. A good example of a static romance is the main one in Kimi ni Todoke.
First base? I wish. The vast majority of romances don't even focus on that stage. It's like if the pitcher is throwing slow balls at the batsman and the batsman is continuously hitting fouls on purpose for 24 episodes straight. . Then the main couple finally reaches first base at the end of the season... or for some series at the end of the second season. . Extremely frustrating if not terribly boring. I can tolerate it romcoms, since ... that's part of the joke (even though I don't really like the genre that much), but in a romance show that is more drama focused... no frakken way.

Another major pet peeve is that the vast majority of romance anime ends at the formation of the relationship. Hardly any go into maintaining one (the ups/downs of relationships), though manga seems do that occasionally, thank god. And you can't put "sex" in an anime or else you get angry otakus sending out death threats to its creators .

Quote:
4) Tsunderes. Now, I do get tsunderes to a point. I get how the charm of some tsunderes is her slowly getting nicer/friendlier over-time, and that being a neat way to seamlessly blend character development with romance development. But some tsunderes never really change (there's a certain imouto in Ore no Imouto that seems like this ). I do wonder what drives this. Is it just a love of slapstick comedy, and the consistently tsuntsun tsundere is seen as a good vehicle for delivering that? Or is it something deeper than this?
Probably the comedy factor yeh. Or maybe tsundere fans are masochists and love it when the MC get's half-beaten to death by his love interest . But I'm with you there. Mild tsunderes can be incredibly moe when the reward finally comes, but excessive tsunderes make me want to sucker punch them
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Old 2012-06-01, 07:13   Link #44
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Originally Posted by DemiSoda View Post
To be fair, there's a lot less maids than there was about 2-3 years ago where there was a 2-3 maid series per season for like 2 years straight. Appeal of maids? Well I guess it's the same deal with the appeal of nurses. Unfortunately, like you, both maids and nurses don't tickle me fancy.
Nurses I can get due to the "short skirt" thing. But a lot of anime maids (as with a lot of maids in real life) have long dresses that reach down to their ankles.

So do nuns, basically, but with nuns you have the obvious connection to that exotic (to Japan) Catholic church.

So unless maids are similarly exotic to Japan, it's hard for me to get the maid thing. But then, in fairness, some fetishes can be hard to get for people who don't have them.


Quote:
My theory was that instead of blood rushing straight from your head to your crotch, character is so aroused so quickly that it comes out through the nearest holes i.e. your nose. .
That's a pretty clever theory. Not bad! I kind of hope you're right, since I myself would find that a bit funny. It would definitely give me a new appreciation for nosebleeds.


Quote:
First base? I wish. The vast majority of romances don't even focus on that stage. It's like if the pitcher is throwing slow balls at the batsman and the batsman is continuously hitting fouls on purpose for 24 episodes straight. . Then the main couple finally reaches first base at the end of the season... or for some series at the end of the second season. .
You've just given me the best laugh I've had in ages. Thanks!

I decided to be generous and call it "first base", but yeah, it's not even that in many cases.


Quote:
Probably the comedy factor yeh. Or maybe tsundere fans are masochists and love it when the MC get's half-beaten to death by his love interest . But I'm with you there. Mild tsunderes can be incredibly moe when the reward finally comes, but excessive tsunderes make me want to sucker punch them
Yeah, we're in complete agreement here. Nice to know I'm not the only anime fan that doesn't quite get the 4 popular elements I brought up.
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Old 2012-06-01, 07:24   Link #45
DonQuigleone
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I generally agree with Demi_soda

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
1) Maids. I don't dislike maids, but I wonder why they show up in all sorts of shows, often fulfilling roles that maids usually don't fill in fiction. Is it just a fetish? Is it due to Japan having a fascination with the very concept of maids, maybe viewing them as an exotic and hence exciting element of European culture that's not common in Japan? I honestly have no idea how common maids are in modern or historical Japan.
This fetish is also popular in the west. It's just one of many fetishes. Anime has fads, this is one of them. I think the appeal is that maids are women that, ahem, serve. There's a power dynamic, and power is sexy.

Quote:
2) Nosebleeds. I certainly get what nosebleeds are symbolic of, but I'm mainly curious about why nosebleeds were chosen as a means to convey a character being sexually aroused. I think 0utf0xZer0 once said it was tied to an old wife's tale in Japan. Well, it might be nice if someone actually told that tale (or linked to it on another site), as it might shed some light on why anime equates "bleeding nose" with "sexually aroused".
When you see nosebleeds (particularly the projectile kind...), it looks a bit like an erection. It's also humrous. If you know your biology, an erection is caused by an increase in blood pressure. So the logical extension is that a guys blood pressure climbs so high he gets a nose bleed. It's a bit like the joke where the old guy gets so turned on he gets a heart attack.

Quote:
3) Static romances. That's probably the best way I can put it. In other words, romances that seem to be permanently locked on the "1st base" position. In other words, romances that never progress beyond the shy, blushing stage. I certainly get the cuteness of the "shy, blushing stage", but not letting a romance get beyond it strikes me as being similar to, say, a person wanting to dream about New York City but never actually visit New York City. A good example of a static romance is the main one in Kimi ni Todoke.
I think this is primarily driven by commercial concerns. This is primarily a manga thing (and can be seen in anime adapted from manga). Usually the mangaka wants to keep their manga going as long as possible. If the manga is a romance manga, resolving the romance will most likely end the manga. They could try and do something skillful and get more varied drama in, but the easiest way to keep their manga going forever is to keep them in "will they or won't they" territory. A fair number of american soaps or sitcoms do this too, in order to draw things out as much as possible and get maximum mileage out of a romantic subplot. For instance, in Friends, Ross and Rachel may have done the deed a lot faster then most anime couples, but they still took an incredibly long time (IE the whole series...) to get into a stable committed relationship. Artistic choice, or commercial ploy to keep the series going as long as possible? You decide.
Quote:
4) Tsunderes. Now, I do get tsunderes to a point. I get how the charm of some tsunderes is her slowly getting nicer/friendlier over-time, and that being a neat way to seamlessly blend character development with romance development. But some tsunderes never really change (there's a certain imouto in Ore no Imouto that seems like this ). I do wonder what drives this. Is it just a love of slapstick comedy, and the consistently tsuntsun tsundere is seen as a good vehicle for delivering that? Or is it something deeper than this?
Tsunderes is a manifestation of the idea among many guys that they can "tame" a girl. You have a similiar plot in a lot of western literature (consider much ado about nothing, or the taming of the shrew). Basically, there's no achievement in getting with the nice girl. Getting with the hostile one, there's an achievement.

The character in itself is appealing because she pushes back, a fair number of guys don't like girls who are complete overly nice pushovers (like the Yamato Nadesico archetype). Arguments are also generally a good vehicle for dramatic and romantic tension (and tsunderes are a good source for those).

The dere side is also important, the girl might have a hostile exterior, but underneath it all she's still a caring and feminine, it's just more difficult to reach it.

Tsun -> dere is an easy character evolution. I'd say a Tsundere who remains tsun tsun for the entire narrative is more a result of poor writing with static characters, then anything else.
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Old 2012-06-01, 07:45   Link #46
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The taming concept was in the original definition (technically the second definition) of tsundere.

But currently it's common to use the word for a character who doesn't change from tsun to dere, but rather, is embarrassed to admit their feelings and uses an aggressive attitude to hide said feelings.
In this case, the attraction to this is simply because embarrassment is cute.
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Old 2012-06-01, 09:41   Link #47
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Originally Posted by Asf View Post
The taming concept was in the original definition (technically the second definition) of tsundere.

But currently it's common to use the word for a character who doesn't change from tsun to dere, but rather, is embarrassed to admit their feelings and uses an aggressive attitude to hide said feelings.
In this case, the attraction to this is simply because embarrassment is cute.
In that case, the latter tsundere would be gap moe, correct ? The embarrassment being cute is just part of a larger phenomenon of people liking large differences in what a character does. Well, characters being embarrassed, or basically showing more intimate feelings, is generally cute anyway. Both of these are kinda why I personally like osananajimi.

Last edited by OceanBlue; 2012-06-01 at 09:51.
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Old 2012-06-05, 18:31   Link #48
Akuma Kinomoto
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Iíve become hesitant in starting to watch psychological anime and I think I know why. The directors of these works seem to believe showing abstract images and a focus on non-verbal storytelling are a good way to make the shows open-ended and have the audience think. Well, psychological shows are thought-provoking but not in the way the makers of these anime probably intended. I usually find myself thinking too much trying to make sense of the chronology and characterization in such a title because the narrative development and cast development isnít even in the work. The abstract visuals are just another cause for confusion regarding this type of anime.

Of course, story progress and characterization are not the defining traits for my appreciation of a series. There are plenty of anime that Iíve enjoyed despite the narrative and ensemble being neglected. The difference between those shows and psychological works, however, is that the latter usually take themselves seriously. Itís difficult not to have certain expectations of series that want to be taken seriously. However, maybe my expectations are inappropriate because, after all, isnít the point of a psychological anime to think?

Yet how am I supposed to extract themes that are only implied when the show cannot even properly demonstrate its explicit concepts those being the narrative and characters? Isnít a philosophy best understood when thereís a story and cast to give it context? Doesnít an idea become more thought-provoking when it relates to the viewer? The lack of material in a psychological anime is further exacerbated by its frequent choice to focus on non-verbal storytelling. Using an indirect method of storytelling to communicate a message thatís barely implied is unneeded confusion that tries to hide non-existent content.

My usual problem with psychological anime is not that theyíre hard to understand; itís that, often, thereís nothing to understand. The messages derived from these shows should be a consequence of their story and characters instead of the point itself.

I have a good idea of whatís about to be directed at me. After all, some observant people might notice the characters in my avatar and signature and think I am unqualified to talk about this. More observant people will note what I said at the beginning. Observant and curious people will remember what I said at the start, look at my favorites list, and what do you know? My position is better understood or at least it should be. Have a nice day.
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Old 2012-06-05, 20:52   Link #49
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I know there's official terminology but I tend to drape them in two general categories based on whether they're presented in a time linear fashion or a force shield mode...

Tsundere type 1: Shakespearean "Taming of the Shrew" (in she isn't tamed so much as partners with the male in an ultimate "gotcha' on the people betting against them making a pair). This is the tsun->dere (ice queen melts, etc). I usually argue that she's actually a type 2 but the plot is just simplified.

Tsundere type 2: Crunchy on the outside, creamy on the inside. Shows the creamy only to those who 'raise the right flags' This is the type often seen in modern entertainment.
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Old 2012-06-06, 11:03   Link #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
I’ve become hesitant in starting to watch psychological anime and I think I know why.
It would help if you give a few concrete examples, otherwise we'd be discussing in general terms. In which case...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
The directors of these works seem to believe showing abstract images and a focus on non-verbal storytelling are a good way to make the shows open-ended and have the audience think.
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
Well, psychological shows are thought-provoking but not in the way the makers of these anime probably intended. I usually find myself thinking too much trying to make sense of the chronology and characterization in such a title...
That is the point.

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Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
The abstract visuals are just another cause for confusion regarding this type of anime.
To put it another way, you aren't meant to think in any one way at all. Especially with film, it has been described as a "dictatorial", "tyrannical" art form because many movies present only a director's point of view and don't give room for members of an audience to come to their own, personal conclusions. Post-modern, abstract art films are made specifically to counter that trend. European arthouse movies are particularly known for this. They are highly infuriating (many would say stupendously boring) to watch. That is the point.

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Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
Of course, story progress and characterization are not the defining traits for my appreciation of a series.
Yes indeed. You, the viewer, are highly encouraged to make whatever meaning you wish out of it. Outside of anime, take, for example, the closing scene* of Space Odyssey 2001. It's notorious for its use of psychedelic imagery. Make up your own mind what it means. Art gives you the freedom to think, not to have meaning dictated to you by a Maker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
Yet how am I supposed to extract themes that are only implied when the show cannot even properly demonstrate its explicit concepts those being the narrative and characters?
Meaning is subjective, deeply personal and totally unique to each individual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
Isn’t a philosophy best understood when there’s a story and cast to give it context?
No. Not always. Especially when it comes to aesthetics and the philosophy of art.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
Doesn’t an idea become more thought-provoking when it relates to the viewer?
No. Not necessarily. Again, what provokes thought is subjective and intensely unique to each individual. Not for a Maker to dictate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
The lack of material in a psychological anime is further exacerbated by its frequent choice to focus on non-verbal storytelling. Using an indirect method of storytelling to communicate a message that’s barely implied is unneeded confusion that tries to hide non-existent content.
Concrete example needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
My usual problem with psychological anime is not that they’re hard to understand; it’s that, often, there’s nothing to understand.
Not understanding is part of the human condition. Understanding what makes us human is also a function of art.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
The messages derived from these shows should be a consequence of their story and characters instead of the point itself.
So, in your opinion, art must have a point, otherwise it's not art?

Must art always be meaningful? Must art be beautiful?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
Observant and curious people will remember what I said at the start, look at my favorites list, and what do you know? My position is better understood or at least it should be. Have a nice day.
That's curious, because you're deliberately leaving your actual position abstract and you expect me to guess what you really think. Hmm... pot calling kettle black?


Note: The answers may sound brusque. That's deliberate, in that I'm trying to demonstrate a point about the philosophy of art. No offence is intended. Apologies in advance if you feel otherwise.


* "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age."

Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2012-06-06 at 21:00.
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Old 2012-06-06, 21:51   Link #51
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Now that's what I call critical thinking. While certain forms and genres are indeed meant to leave a viewer to think for themselves (which in itself can be dissected critically), there's a wide world out there that is specifically created to mold one's actions into their medium. Your wallet, your thoughts, your interests and your personality become clay ready for the shaping into what the creators generally want, which plays to psychological issues in our lives (maybe a series for those who feel weak to feel empowered, etc.) and makes us think in certain ways. At the very least, I feel it's important to know when this is happening so we're not oblivious to it. I personally would like to be an educated consumer, not a mindless puppet. Then I can like what I actually would want to like.

How about a personal example? A little simple, but this will work nonetheless. Kanon's 2006 rendition by KyoAni is almost universally preferred over the 2002 version by Toei Animation. Now, I'm a big fan of KyoAni's art style and I generally end up enjoying most of the series they animate (Haruhi, K-ON, Lucky Star, Clannad, Nichijou, Hyouka, etc.). To this day, I feel like Kanon 2006 isn't as fantastic (in my opinion) as everyone says it is. Everything noteworthy aside from the superior animation (that's definitely true) is basically already in the 2002 version. The opening and ending theme of 2006 are used in 2002, and the overall charm remains. Basically, it still feels like Kanon 2006 is trying to shape my opinion on the 2002 version, especially with how the fanbase has shifted to their side. This is my personal opinion, but I think the 2002 version is actually more enjoyable in the end. I can watch both and honestly say that the superior animation doesn't give off the same feeling. Now years ago, I would've undoubtedly agreed, saying it looks much better and therefore is better. Shows how much an opinion can differ depending on how you view something.

P.S. Just a side note, but Yuuichi in the KyoAni version is Kyon! They kidnapped him and gave him Kanon lines to read! Tell the people! Warn them about what is happening!
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Old 2012-06-07, 15:54   Link #52
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Maybe I'm thinking of psychological anime in a different way, but in my view the distinguishing feature of "psychological" anime is that it delves into thoughts and psychological state of characters, usually in depth, and usually the characters feel a bit "mad". My perception is that the psychological "genre" (if there really is one...) is not given to the non-verbal images and abstract storytelling that Akito_Kinomoto was complaining about. I'd describe those anime as "arthouse anime", and really they're quite an acquired taste, much like written by the likes of James Joyce. While James Joyce has an immense reputation, the truth is that the vast majority don't like reading him, his books are very ... unpleasant to read, unless you approach them with a particular mindset, similiar to arthouse cinema or, indeed, anime.

I would describe anime like Welcome to the NHK, Madoka Magica, Tatami Galaxy, One Outs, Death Note to be "psychological". They all heavily focus on the insides of people's heads. I also wouldn't describe any of them as particularly arty or lacking in dialogue.

Psychological anime requires extensively delving into people's core thoughts, which tends to require a lot of dialogue.
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Old 2012-06-07, 16:22   Link #53
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I'm with Don here... 'psychological drama' isn't "blindside gotcha" stuff.... his examples are good. Live action examples would be Sybil, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, A Beautiful Mind, and so on...

I'd add William Faulkner to the literary list... he is immensely respected but I found most of his material only readable with my teeth gritted.

And yeah, I prefer Kanon 2006 over Kanon 2002 - but only because of the art/animation and the more extensive time budget. Functionally it didn't really bring anything fundamentally new to the story (other than the controversial shift at the end, nope no spoilers). Unfortunately, I can barely watch the old version the visual flaws are so distracting now.
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Old 2012-06-07, 21:26   Link #54
Akuma Kinomoto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
That's curious, because you're deliberately leaving your actual position abstract and you expect me to guess what you really think. Hmm... pot calling kettle black?
Apologies if I didnít make myself clear. I have my fair share of psychological anime that I like quite a bit but the problem is that the genre itself has been very inconsistent with me. As such Iíve become hesitant to start watching them.

You said that I was criticizing the point of those shows but quite honestly open-ended is not a problem with me if there was some actual context to base the guesswork on. Texhnolyze, for example, is very similar to Serial Experiments Lain in regards to its density except the former rewards the viewerís efforts to make sense out of everything with an actual story whereas the latter simply raises more questions. Looking at the narrative of the show itself, there are plenty of things about Texhnolyze that are left up to the viewerís interpretation. Is Lux a crumbling city being defiled by its own citizens or is it lively for keeping the vitality of everything that is human? Can Ran really tell the future or is it a delusion to offer safety in anarchy? Is the ending of the series tragic for what happens or a blessing in disguise for saving someone?

Give me a crime scene and Iíll investigate all I can. Tell me a crime happened and Iíll have no idea where to even start. Yes, artís meaning is in the eye of the beholder otherwise I couldnít speculate that Mona Lisaís subject is DaVinciís grandmother. The problem is that the art form weíre talking about isnít a painting or a statue but a medium that, to my knowledge, is primarily used for storytelling. Youíre description of European arthouse films as being open-ended, to me, sound like directors who arenít even sure what story they want to tell.

Itís one thing to write a story and have nuances lost in transcription. Itís an entirely different animal to put together random things and expect the audience to make something out of it. So as to whether I think art should always have a purpose, Iíll say yes for narrative art. Outside of storytelling, go ahead and put as many droopy clocks on trees as you want.
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Old 2012-06-07, 22:00   Link #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
The problem is that the art form we’re talking about isn’t a painting or a statue but a medium that, to my knowledge, is primarily used for storytelling.
Storytelling isn't the priority for every director out there

TinyRedLeaf mentioned Kubrick,I'll go back to him,here's one of his notable quotes

Quote:
A film is - or should be - more like music than like fiction. It should be a progression of moods and feelings. The theme, what's behind the emotion, the meaning, all that comes later.
You talked about the mona lisa,Kubrick used it too in regards to 2001

Quote:
How could we possibly appreciate the Mona Lisa if Leonardo had written at the bottom of the canvas, `The lady is smiling because she is hiding a secret from her lover`? This would shackle the viewer to reality, and I don`t want this to happen to 2001.
As you can see Kubrick had no problem comparing his movie to a painting.Of course he was a live action director but considering how influencial he was I'm sure a few anime directors have been influenced by him.
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Old 2012-06-07, 22:22   Link #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Storytelling isn't the priority for every director out there.
That doesn't mean it shouldn't be.

Kubrick has a right to his opinion, and I respect it, but that's all it is, his opinion.

When I go to the movies, it's because I'm hoping to see a good fictional story told through film (unless the movie is displaying non-fiction, of course). I daresay that's true for a lot of people, and probably even a solid majority of movie-goers.

And for almost all anime I watch, I'm also hoping to see a good fictional story presented through animation.

Good storytelling is something that I value highly, and that I almost always enjoy.


Edit: In any event, Akito is basically right. Anime is a medium primarily used for storytelling. There's not many anime shows without any plot to it. Even many shows labeled "slice of life" have some plot to it. A statue and a painting have no plot to it.
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Old 2012-06-07, 22:43   Link #57
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Hmm, I fucking hated 2001. Great book, but the movie was just too boring for me.

I feel that sometimes an anime or a movie or w/e can make me think "you're full of yourself, stop doing that and come back to earth." The first thing in my mind in anime when it comes to this is when I'm watching something by Shinbo in his IMO lesser moments. But Monogatari wasn't really trying to be psychological; the idea still stands though.

Penguindrum would do this sometimes I felt, though it was a great show otherwise, when it was doing it right as I will attest to below.

It's nice to ask a question and let people figure it out. It's nice to allow for the realm of possibility. It's nice to ask a question that you yourself know not, but have tried to think of a means to figure it out. It is NOT nice to ask questions when you have no idea what the fuck you're asking about, nor a means to find the answer. I would tag Umineko as this, but given that it was a Deen adaptation, I guess I would hold back on such a theory. Though Higurashi was a positive example of this.

According to MAL, "psychological" anime is one of my favorite genres. Out of my top 10 shows, Evangelion, Serial Experiments Lain, Paranoia Agent, and perhaps Ergo Proxy (#10 for me is a hard pick) are distinctly in this category. Other favorites from me (Higurashi, Madoka, Akagi) tend to a psychological aspect to it.

Most of these animes though I didn't like because they helped me achieve some greater meaning though. They were largely through the intensive character introspection which led to you knowing the characters inside and out that really boosts the nature of the story to one you can care about. And the mind can get pretty crazy sometimes, making it one rather crazy journey that can question your perception of reality, and the show's reality. I feel this is far more solid then some pretentious nonsense about leaving it all to themselves, even though most of my loved shows tend to do this. But they really had questions based in reality though. The aforementioned Penguindrum also did a lot of these good things, though it would sometimes cross the realm into just white noise, so it just sits right below my favorites, really.


See, anyone can fucking ask a question. It's what they're asking and how they seek the answer that drives the line between meaningful and bullshit. You have to give people a reason to consider why this question was interesting in the first place.
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Old 2012-06-07, 22:47   Link #58
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@ Triple_R

Snap you replied before I could edit my post.

I didn't quite like the way I phrased that,I think i preffer replacing "storytelling" with "the narrative".

Probably doesn't affect your reply though.

That doesn't mean I think all movies should be like that but such movies and animes have the right to exist and aren't the product of incompetent people.

edit:And of course 2001 has a plot,but the plot isn't the point of the movie and isn't what makes it a classic.
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Old 2012-06-08, 08:58   Link #59
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To be honest, "psychological" is really a problematic descriptor as a genre. It's really more of an element of style, rather then substance, which what genre usually is about.

For instance, it's very easy to tell if something is Sci-fi, because it's set in the future, has futuristic gadgets/society etc. Likewise Fantasy. It's easy to tell if something is a mystery (there's a mystery -> characters solve it). But what solid thing can you point to with "psychological", character introspection?

Most "quality" anime (or film) contain character introspection, examining the states of the people taking part. Most of the elements that mark out "psychological" anime are present, albeit usually to a lesser extent, in almost all anime. You can't draw a concrete line between what is and isn't psychological.

That said, the stuff that does get the label of "psychological" is stuff that I quite like. I just find it's not really a proper genre. "Battle" is more of an anime genre, but it doesn't get used as much.

I think the type of anime people here are complaining about is "arthouse anime", and personally I'm on the side of the people who don't like it. There are a few unique occasions where I can tolerate it, but by and large I hate it. I like ineresting artistic layered narratives, but I don't like long stretches of characters not talking, or not doing anything.

I would say the vast vast majority of film goers don't like these kind of films (or books) either. Those who do are a vocal minority, who also tend to often be critics. It's a similiar group of people to the types who like abstract modern art, whereas the vast majority of the population by far prefer classical or modern representational art.

To give a good example, among hong kong film lovers, two films from the 90s tend to be particularly well thought of: Hard Boiled and Chungking Express. Hard Boiled is the John Woo wall to wall action film, with guys shooting guns while flying throught the air, and huge explosions. Chungking Express is the Wong Kar Wai thoughtful, slow film meditating on hong kong, and love, with very little dialogue or action. If you were to sit people down and ask them to watch both, most people will by far prefer Hard Boiled, as it's very exciting and accessible. Chungking Express will bore most people. I quite liked Chungking Express, but Chungking Express is positively action packed compared to most of Wong Kar Wai's other films, which I've found almost universally sleep inducing, but are usually darlings for the critics.

Personally, I think Hard Boiled is by far the superior film, even if it's writing is a bit flaky. Critics are actually usually pretty good about assessing films, but I think their views are at odds with most audiences regarding these types of films.
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