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View Poll Results: Aquarion EVOL - Episode 23 Rating
Perfect 10 12 18.46%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 13 20.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 8 12.31%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 4.62%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 4.62%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 1.54%
4 out of 10 : Poor 4 6.15%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 3.08%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 1.54%
1 out of 10 : Painful 18 27.69%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-06-04, 12:46   Link #241
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vena View Post
You know, if the set-up was done well, then the writers did their job but they are not the sole people behind the complete story. In fact, I doubt Okada had any more say in this than giving form to what she was told was the desired outcome, so if the presentation was well executed then the people choreographing the story (ie. the writers) have done a good job with what they were given.

If Kawamori says: "I want Apollo to be a dog."
And Mari says: "If you say so, boss."

Who do you blame?
I also think this was Kawamori's idea too and not Okada's but I just find it annoying that she gets involved in projects like these in the first place. It's like the ultimate troll to see a good writer doing good job of setting up a banal plot twist. Hence why I feel like it's wasted effort...
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Old 2012-06-04, 12:48   Link #242
KleenexGhost
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@Kakkou Agreed. Criticize legitimate problems and don't just hate to hate.
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Old 2012-06-04, 12:50   Link #243
Destined_Fate
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Originally Posted by Kakkou View Post
Because Dark Amata wasn't naturally split and reincarnated like how Celiane was. Mykage forcefully did it. And that was after Amata was already born and lived for a few years.

You know it's perfectly fine to be hating and disliking on the very twist itself but it becomes hard to seriously take it as a valid opinion and not just hating for the sake of hating when people just throw every single part of the info presented as trolling without actually taking proper consideration about how and why. On top of that throw words like beastiality around without really knowing what they mean or how they're applied. Of course, this also applies to the opposite side of the spectrum. Middle ground? What's that?

Anyway I clearly recall why I hardly participate in episode discussions so I'll just keep lurking and enjoying whatever amusement I can get, be it from the show itself or the discussions and shitstorms it generates.
I call it as it is. This was a stupid plot twist and is completely troll worthy. No matter what you say doesn't change that they just trolled their entire fanbase and ruined the original series to many. Even understanding all the "evidence" that's been put out, and there is plenty of "evidence" as well that support Apollo being Apollonius in the original series, doesn't change the amount of stupidity and trolling this revelation bears.

Than go, no one is forceing you to stick around or have an attitude or to patronize others intelligence. Everyone here knows exactly what Beastality means and that's exactly what the 24,000 is about now. A dog wanted to bang his owners lover who is human and reincarnated twice to do just that, thus beastality since they're going to push for Mikono to want it with a dog as a way for them to fight fate and be together.
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Old 2012-06-04, 12:54   Link #244
KleenexGhost
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I agree on giving things a fair shake but when something seems stupid it should be judged accordingly. It's not like we're just going "Stupid series, stupid plot twist."
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Old 2012-06-04, 13:14   Link #245
Radik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
This sort of plot twist only really matters if it matters to the characters themselves.

In other words, is Amata going to care that he's the reincarnation of a dog? Is Mikono going to care? Is any character going to treat Amata differently because he's a dog's reincarnation instead of Appolonius' reincarnation? No?
It could have been intended as a message to the viewer: "if the characters don't care, neither should you.". Maybe the show really want to drive the point home that the character's fate or its past doesn't matter, to the point where they turned Apollo into a dog to help us understand that Genesis was a story about Silvia and Apollo and not whose reincarnations they were. I'm probably giving the writers way too much credit though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Then, well, it doesn't really change a whole lot in a practical "right now" way. Yes, it could point to a pattern - The person you love in life may be denied you in this life, but maybe you'll get to be with that "same person" 12,000 years later.

But, honestly, I don't find this idea all that compelling. I guess it could be good news for Zessica, but it's pretty faint good news.
Even though Zessica does seem to be the Pollon of this cycle, you have to wonder if it really matters if she got her wish and was reincarnated. Basically all she would leave behind are vague memories. It would hardly be a good end for her. I'm still wondering what this series is trying to achieve by continuously breaking down Zessica's character like this.
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Old 2012-06-04, 13:19   Link #246
mayumi
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Zessica's purpose could also be something like taking down mykage who is within her. If she is Touma's good half then she probably will consider it her responsibility to do so especially since the good half fell for someone other than Apollonius and reaching her enlightenment.
Perhaps that is also the theme to break the cycle once and for all.

Even if Zessica is not Touma's reincarnation because she was the one unchosen like Touma/Scorpius/Reika etc she could lead Mykage to finally his demise and stop him from coming back and messing with things. It would be really tragic end for her but suiting cause no one knows why Zessica is being tortured like she is
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Old 2012-06-04, 13:29   Link #247
Kakkou
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I should be sleeping. How utterly masochistic of me.

I'm not exactly pleased that the main theme of Genesis got overturned, though I find it amusing all the same (partly in a stupid kind of way). Call it stupid, trolling, lolKawamori, lolOkada or whatever you like, cause there's definitely the basis for it but really, I do think some of you are blowing certain aspects of the twist waaaay out of proportion.

Silvia at the start of Genesis truly thought that she had to get together with Apollonius' reincarnation, but I saw that as mainly an excuse to justify her massive brocon feelings. By the end of the series she and Apollo had grown to love each other as in, Apollo and Silvia, not because Apollonius x Celiane was the OTP 12000 years ago. Silvia even declared that she's not Celiane, so she's no longer loving Apollo on the basis that she's gonna marry Apollonius' reincarnation. Just Apollo.

Now, about Pollon the Shadow Angel doggie. He held an unrequited, unnoticed love towards Celiane and wished that he would be able to meet Celiane again. That's it. He didn't consciously reincarnate as Apollo just so he could steal his master's glory and his wife. By the time his soul was Apollo he wouldn't even have known that he managed to woo over his crush's reincarnation. Perhaps you could indeed call it NTR on a wholly meta level but series wise there's absolutely nothing wrong about it in the slightest cause again, they were no longer Pollon the Shadow Angel doggie and Celiane the mistress/wife of Apollonius. At the point he reincarnated, it no longer became his personal story. It became Apollo's. I know the premise itself is not quite flattering on a meta level but can people just dislike it without utterly demonising it?

Again, anyone is free to send hate mail or pineapples to Satelight addressed to Kawamori/Okada. Just please think about whether the points you have to go with that hate actually fits and/or hasn't been exaggerated it into something far more nasty than it actually is.
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Old 2012-06-04, 13:31   Link #248
Iwa Ite
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I've watched Genesis just before Evol started airing. Some odd parts in Genesis makes a lot more sense now
But seriously this is a huge troll

I'm buying this Pollon reincarnation business
Let it be so, Kawamori

I'm excited to see how it will end this time
Mykage, Revenge Gattai

Someone put Zessica out of her misery, it's just so sad. Or let her say a wish like Pollon did.
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Old 2012-06-04, 13:37   Link #249
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No it isn't. He was a Dog that wanted to get with a Human and reincarnated just for that purpose. He even took his Master's own promise and made it his own behind everyones back. So yes it's still beastality(With a hint of betrayal to Apollonius), though let me explain it in terms you'll understand.

Say that there's this Human who falls in love with a Cat and wants to get with that Cat, in "that" way, but that Cat is already with another Cat in "that" way and said other Cat is this Humans Master who trusts the Human completely. This Human than notices the two lovers make a wish to meet again and love each other forever and the Human decides "No wait, I want that Cat for myself and wis for us to meet again in another life, and totally get in the way of my Master's promise, so we can be together instead! For good measure that Cat will be lead to believe that I'm her destined Cat lover and not that Human that the other Cat owned as a pet!" than that ends up being the case. That's still beastality just like this is. It doesn't matter that Pollon is the animal in this story, what matters is the Animal + Human relation desires that are being realized here.
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Old 2012-06-04, 13:51   Link #250
Haak
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Just wanted to point out that the concept of an animal turning into a human to chase after another human is nothing new. It happened in Natsume Yuujinchou (though that was just to say thank you) and Kanon (though it was inevitably doomed). Perhaps this is based on some sort of Japanese folkstory?
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Old 2012-06-04, 13:55   Link #251
kk2extreme
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How will we get trolled next?
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Old 2012-06-04, 13:56   Link #252
Destined_Fate
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Folk lore or not, we all know what the implications are of the doggy stealing away Celiane from Apollonius is just so he can get with Ceilane than he was mistakened for the reincarnation of Apollonius the entire time and not the doggy that he is. Poor Silvia, huh? At least she only got to first base with the doggt before they got seperated instead of going all the way than figureing out she just made it with a dog that she thought was actually her destined lover.

It's sorta like that one story where in the night a jealous twin brother sleeps with his brother's lover and she thinks it's him than the lights are turned on, after he's done having her for himself, and she's disgusted over this revelation and being tricked.

Or in this case... In the night a jealous "loyal" doggy sneaks into the bed of his Master's sleeping lover while he's away, but promised to return to her soon, and makes love to her while she wakes up in a daze and thinks it's her lover just returning only for the lights to turn on, after he has her at his whim, and she's disgusted to see that it was the "loyal" doggy all along.

Sick, utterly sick.
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Old 2012-06-04, 14:05   Link #253
TheEroKing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kk2extreme View Post
How will we get trolled next?
How about Shushu being Apollonius?


It has been with Mikono ALL this time
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Old 2012-06-04, 14:07   Link #254
KleenexGhost
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How about Shushu being Apollonius?


It has been with Mikono ALL this time
After episode 23, that's very plausible
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Old 2012-06-04, 14:08   Link #255
articuzwolf
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around 22 weeks ago I was really excited about this series

now it's too painful to watch, and too close to ending to drop it

story is a mess, a joke is not funny anymore and this episode is just . . .
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Old 2012-06-04, 14:09   Link #256
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Folk lore or not, we all know what the implications are of the doggy stealing away Celiane from Apollonius is just so he can get with Ceilane than he was mistakened for the reincarnation of Apollonius the entire time and not the doggy that he is. Poor Silvia, huh? At least she only got to first base with the doggt before they got seperated instead of going all the way than figureing out she just made it with a dog that she thought was actually her destined lover.

It's sorta like that one story where in the night a jealous twin brother sleeps with his brother's lover and she thinks it's him than the lights are turned on, after he's done having her for himself, and she's disgusted over this revelation and being tricked.

Or in this case... In the night a jealous "loyal" doggy sneaks into the bed of his Master's sleeping lover while he's away, but promised to return to her soon, and makes love to her while she wakes up in a daze and thinks it's her lover just returning only for the lights to turn on, after he has her at his whim, and she's disgusted to see that it was the "loyal" doggy all along.

Sick, utterly sick.
Mikono's apology makes it seem like Celiane wanted this to happen so I don't think there's any trickery involved.
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Old 2012-06-04, 14:16   Link #257
Destined_Fate
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But Celiane never noticed Pollon and had zero attraction to the dog. Her apology makes no sense since she treated Pollon as good as any pet is treated, it's not her fault she wasn't into beastality. Though sadly her reincarnation seems to want that, not even a full one since it's never said that Silvia and Sirius merged back together and it's just Silvia half. Instead this isn't a love story at all, it's just a Dog twisting a 24,000 year promise into his own with her completely clueless that the one she was reincarnated with wasn't the man she thought he was but just a jealous dog that sabotaged the promise untill EVOL.

Still makes things exremely messed up and you can't say that Silvia wasn't tricked because she was made to believe that Apollo was Apollonius and she was part Celiane which made them destined for each other.
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Old 2012-06-04, 14:41   Link #258
ars89
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So Apollonius has never reincarnated. Lol it was the dog 12000 years ago and the dog again now. Still don't get what Mikage is after if there is no Apollonius. Poor Shrade sacrificed himself. So they somehow have to reunited the 2 worlds into 1? Amata just got pushed aside for now. Was that Mixy in a vector in the preview?
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Old 2012-06-04, 15:14   Link #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by articuzwolf View Post
around 22 weeks ago I was really excited about this series

now it's too painful to watch, and too close to ending to drop it

story is a mess, a joke is not funny anymore and this episode is just . . .
Do I need to start a Satelight Victims Support Group or should I wait just a little more and see what happens with their next cycle of shows?
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Old 2012-06-04, 15:56   Link #260
Rennir
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Didn't see this coming at all. Well played, Kawamori, well played. I wonder why he did it though. Why get all the viewers into the Apollonious and Celiane love story and the 12000 years and reincarnation, only to rip it into pieces and throw it away?
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