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View Poll Results: Aquarion EVOL - Episode 23 Rating
Perfect 10 12 18.46%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 13 20.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 8 12.31%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 4.62%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 4.62%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 1.54%
4 out of 10 : Poor 4 6.15%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 3.08%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 1.54%
1 out of 10 : Painful 18 27.69%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-06-06, 12:28   Link #401
GoldenLand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vena View Post
This is the case with everyone. Andy messed up his confession? Tries to make amends? Nope, instead he just starts sinking into holes and then goes batshit insane to rescue MIX. Does MIX try to talk with him? Nope, gets turned into a guy. Yunoha and Jin? Three episodes? Three episodes, and now we never stop hearing about Jin-kun. Zessica? She's been on a roller-coaster from hell, destination unknown. Mikono? Wall flower.

The only couple that's any good is/was Cayenne and Shrade, and now Shrade is dead. They: talked, interacted frequently, could talk to each other about important subjects, expressed more than one or two emotions.

Kind of sad.
Some characters are better than others in this, and Amata is by no means the worst offender of the lot, but that's true - the only ones who seemed to have a sense of proportion were Cayenne and Shrade. They also never seemed to get treated as a couple in the same way as the other characters did: it's not as if they had an episode all about falling for each other, and they never seemed as confirmed as a couple as the others. Their purpose in the show wasn't primarily for romance, although we (and Sazanka!) could certainly read it as being there.

And that's it, isn't it: once a character has their romance as a big part of their character, in EVOL it gets really blown up out of proportion. Ah well, a bit of drama and OTT-ness is par for the course in Aquarion, but it wouldn't have hurt to make the characters better rounded...

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Originally Posted by KleenexGhost View Post
At least Shrade died before they could ruin his character.
Heresy. Shrade was so cool that he laughed at the puny attempts of the staff to ruin his character. If he'd lived, he would have shrugged off the rest of their attempts with a strum of his invisible violin, too.
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Old 2012-06-06, 12:33   Link #402
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They had their chance at happiness and got it which was all Pollon wished for. At the end of Genesis they were happy even if their time was cut short. Just like how Apollonius and Celiane were happy. That doesn't give Pollon the right to jack his Master's promise a second time just because he wasn't happy that his wish was granted but he decided that wasn't good enough and he wanted more than just love from Celiane.

You go the property excuse yet I don't see you trashing on Amata or Kagura when they're talking about Mikono. Destiny was their excuse for the longest time as to why Mikono was the one they pursued and were meant to be with. That's far different than what Apollo did where he didn't have Destiny weighing him down and fell in love on his own free will. Amata and Kagura that is suspect and is unforgiveable because unlike Apollo they know what's going on but could give two-****s about it, Mikono is their prize and they don't want to share her - not even with themselves.

Because Apollonius is loyal unlike his dog and still loves his dog even though his dog is masqueradeing as him and trying to steal his lover away from him for all eternity. Something that can't be said for Pollon who not only jacked his Master's promise not once but twice already. Maybe he should have just left Pollon to die instead of taking him in as a pet, at least than we wouldn't be stuck with all this Reincarnation craziness.

Touma was dumped, he's just a scorned lover and he finally let his hate go at the end of Genesis. That is until he learned that not only did the dog lie to him but the dog lied to everyone and stole away Celiane, the woman that Apollonius had left him for whom he was willing to let stay with him because she made Apollonius happy. So really, EVOL is all Pollon's fault now that you think about it. Had it been Apollonius that got with his destined lover(as they promised), who she did think is the one got with him in the end, than EVOL would never have happened and countless wouldn't have died on Altair or Vega.
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Old 2012-06-06, 12:38   Link #403
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@GoldenLand Such is the power of a character voiced by Daisuke Namikawa
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Old 2012-06-06, 12:42   Link #404
kuromitsu
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>Vena & KleenexGhost
People doing life-endangeringly stupid things to protect someone they love? Saving them becoming their top priority? OH MY GOD what obsession! FWIW Andy's little bout of depression was indeed bad but it didn't last long, it wasn't as bad as in case of Zessica, and at least it wasn't useless (re: black hole). The worst Amata has done so far is going out to find her, and he did that because he was worried that Kagura was out there and would harm her.

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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Heresy. Shrade was so cool that he laughed at the puny attempts of the staff to ruin his character. If he'd lived, he would have shrugged off the rest of their attempts with a strum of his invisible violin, too.
This is truth right here. Oh Shrade. ;_; )
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Old 2012-06-06, 12:46   Link #405
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We're all right. This show just does romance badly. Everyone has an obsession of a varying degree about someone else.

From mild cases like Yunoha/Jin. Moderate cases like Andy/Mix. Or severe cases like Amata/Mikono, Zessica/Amata, Kagura/Mikono

Only two that this doesn't apply to are Cayenne and Shrade.
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Old 2012-06-06, 12:55   Link #406
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
You go the property excuse yet I don't see you trashing on Amata or Kagura when they're talking about Mikono.
Since you mention it, I should correct you: I have criticised that behaviour. What I haven't done is trashed them, I hope. They're just fictional characters, so they're not worth that.

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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Maybe he should have just left Pollon to die instead of taking him in as a pet, at least than we wouldn't be stuck with all this Reincarnation craziness.
Because the audience wouldn't like the dog plot twist, Apollonius should have left a dog to die? Very meta.

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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Touma was dumped, he's just a scorned lover and he finally let his hate go at the end of Genesis. That is until he learned that not only did the dog lie to him but the dog lied to everyone and stole away Celiane, the woman that Apollonius had left him for whom he was willing to let stay with him because she made Apollonius happy.
Pollon never lied to anyone about reincarnations. Neither did Apollo. Even Kagura and Amata haven't lied about them, although they have been confused. None of them have pretended to be Apollonius, and Amata and Kagura didn't even know about Apollonius until the most recent ep.

"The dog", that being the human Apollo, never stole Celiane. He fell in love with Silvia. They fell in love on their own. He wasn't deceitful, he didn't lie, and in the end neither of them cared about their reincarnations.

If he "stole" Celiane, for one thing he only stole half of her (poor Sirius!). But if he can steal her just by them falling in love on their own, that means that any part of Celiane is stamped as Apollonius' property forever even if her reincarnations disagree. And that is just not right.

And if a reincarnation of Celiane does not deserve to be happy because she has chosen to be with someone other than Apollonius, to whom she belongs forever even though she loves someone else now, then Apollonius (the guy who jilted his fiance, Toma, even though they both used to love each other dearly) didn't deserve to live happily with Celiane in the first place. I don't agree with that.

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Originally Posted by KleenexGhost View Post
We're all right. This show just does romance badly. Everyone has an obsession of a varying degree about someone else.
It's the weakness of the show...It's all about love (EVOL and all). Maybe in the end we'll find out it's a big old deconstruction.
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Old 2012-06-06, 13:30   Link #407
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Which makes your arguement over possession weak since Apollonius never treated Celiane as an object and both agreed to the reincarnation deal. The reincarnation deal in Genesis may have been born out of its own love but it was under false pretenses with everyone believeing that Apollo was Apollonius. Everyone was trolled hard by Pollon in Genesis by this revelation.

Not like the dog was important to the plot anyway until this plot twist. He was just that cuddly animal that no one really cared about. Than suddenly he's made important and Apollonius is diminished into nothing. Before this revelation his being around just wasn't important and no one would have missed him if he had never even shown up or had been mentioned.

Yes he did. After they died they weren't restricted. Touma tried to get things to work only to find out that Pollon had tricked everyone, includeing the man he loved, and had hyjacked the promise not once but was going for a second go was too much. Thus Touma going insane and splitting his dark part into what would become Mykage is solely the fault of Pollon who's actions and desires have had dire reprecuessions on everyone up to EVOL.

Silvia/Celiane still cared enough near the end and was lead to believe that Apollo was Apollonius. I doubt their love would have been the same if Silvia knew that she had been tricked and if that wasn't true than what else wasn't true about Apollo? Point is she was tricked even if it wasn't Pollon's intention that's exactly what he ended up doing.

Sirius was retconned out by EVOL, he wasn't even mentioned and as far as they're concerned it was Celiane -> Silvia -> Mikono. And again, she fell in love with him on her own but didn't commit until after she remembered she was Celiane and that Apollo was supposedly Apollonius and they had all those crazy signs saying that was the case.

And again, stop using that stupid property arguement. Apollonius didn't force Celiane into the deal, she wanted it of her own free will thus it was mutual(Hence destined for EACH OTHER and not one destined for the other) without any deceit or tricks(Unlike the Genesis promise where everyone thought Pollon was Apollonius). If anything Pollon had Celiane stapled as property that he was would go as far as hyjacking his Master's promise which lead to him tricking, even if unintentionally, her into thinking he was Apollonius because he wanted her love that bad. Remember, in Genesis the spirit of Celiane wasn't reaching out for Pollon she was reaching out for Apollonius the entire time.

Happiness born from deceit is a worse fate than being alone. Celiane deserves happiness but does Pollon? No, not after all the stuff he's caused in the past 24,000 he doesn't deserve to be happy.

Than I would point to how Amata and Kagura are the new Pollon and they show exactly what they think of Celiane. A prize, property, and something that should be theirs and no one elses and they could care less what she thinks on the matter just as long as they can have her.
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Old 2012-06-06, 13:40   Link #408
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@GoldenLand Deconstruction... Maybe. The whole thing could be a lesson in not placing too much faith in destined meetings predetermined by reincarnation cycles. However they tried that with the whole Amata fighting against destiny thing but it turns out that, according to reincarnation cycle, that he is destined to end up fall in love with Mikono.

If they want to deconstruct the series, then have him not end up with Mikono, but have him not end up with her by his own choice. Try and break the cycle in a sense. Fight against destiny.
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Old 2012-06-06, 13:42   Link #409
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Originally Posted by KleenexGhost View Post
We're all right. This show just does romance badly. Everyone has an obsession of a varying degree about someone else.

From mild cases like Yunoha/Jin. Moderate cases like Andy/Mix. Or severe cases like Amata/Mikono, Zessica/Amata, Kagura/Mikono
I think I'll just agree to disagree here. I think we have different definitions of "obsession"... (That said, the show doesn't do romance well, at all.)
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Old 2012-06-06, 14:03   Link #410
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I think I'll just agree to disagree here. I think we have different definitions of "obsession"... (That said, the show doesn't do romance well, at all.)
At least we agree on the last part. Obsession might be a wrong choice of word for Jin/Yunoha & Andy/Mix but how about "head over hills" or "infatuated?"
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Old 2012-06-06, 14:12   Link #411
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>Vena & KleenexGhost
People doing life-endangeringly stupid things to protect someone they love? Saving them becoming their top priority? OH MY GOD what obsession! FWIW Andy's little bout of depression was indeed bad but it didn't last long, it wasn't as bad as in case of Zessica, and at least it wasn't useless (re: black hole). The worst Amata has done so far is going out to find her, and he did that because he was worried that Kagura was out there and would harm her.
No. Specifically: Stealing a vector to chase after someone on a "calling" has nothing to do with protecting, saving, or anything of the sort. Just like Zessica did something stupid over getting rejected, Amata did something stupid over a "calling". The rest is simply to point out that Amata losses his head, just as everyone else does. (And let's be fair here, Amata losing his head and self-preservation for a girl from whom he has yet to get an answer (on anything)... is obsession. Especially with the ominous Kagura hanging all over their relationship that they can never seem to talk about.)

That's all it amounts to, Amata is as obsessed as Zessica, as Andy, and the rest of the awkwardly handled cast.
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Old 2012-06-06, 16:48   Link #412
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I think I'll just agree to disagree here. I think we have different definitions of "obsession"... (That said, the show doesn't do romance well, at all.)
I have to agree with the last part as well, for a series where love is supposed to be at its core, EVOL has been horrible at portraying romance.

The writing is really all over the place.
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Old 2012-06-06, 19:01   Link #413
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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
Well, consider the show's ideas of "true love."
Kagura: obsession
Zessica: seriously unhealthy
Amata: cockblocked by the universe (and his own other half) until it's too late
Mikono: ?

So...

Amata's is as unhealthy as Zessica's and borderline obsessive as Kagura's. He had a rapist dream, spies on his loved one to listen ways to win her over (breaching her privacy when she was talking to a friend), disobeyed orders to fly into a place, stealing a vector (knowing their situation was precarious and doing it against Mikono's expressed wishes) because "Mikono-san is calling me!!1" Let's not even touch his mommy issues. Even the voice actors poke fun it's Mikono's face what he likes. Amata seems more concerned about not being left behind again than for Mikono's feelings, in my opinion. He was fighting over her with Kagura like a piece of meat. He needs therapy to get over his abandonment issues before starting any relationship (so does Kagura to face his own, for that matter). I have no idea what's the deal with Zessica because we don't have her backstory, but she does need it too.

Mikono seems to be the only one who is rightfully not taking a teenage fling seriously.

Yunoha and Jin were called Romeo and Juliet. We know there's a strong obsession there, but she let it go (episode 14) even if she kept loving him. MIX and Andy seem normal for now, he gets depressed but has rightful reasons to be concerned (his love interest was kidnapped, brainwashed and turned into a guy).

But yeah, bad writing? There's always Shrade, Cayenne and Crea!
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Last edited by Thess; 2012-06-06 at 19:18.
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Old 2012-06-06, 19:17   Link #414
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I think that one of the core problems with how romance is handled in this show is that we don't see the characters care about much else.

Unless Amata's thinking about his mom, he's thinking about Mikono. It seems to always be one or the other for Amata. ...Freud would probably have a field day with Amata.

Zessica isn't much better, of course, and Kagura is just a single-minded plot device who probably can't help it.


Other viewers have hinted at this, but I think the problem is a lack of "cross-over" communication. What I mean by that is stuff like, say, Amata casually chit-chatting with Yunoha, Zessica casually chit-chatting with Cayenne, Mikono casually chit-chatting with Andy.

Everybody seems to be firmly "locked down" in their particular plot or subplot, and there's not a whole lot of "crossing over" between those locked-down subplots. Andy is always about Mix, Amata is always about Mikono, Zessica is always about Amata, etc...

Now, I'm obviously generalizing here, but it's true enough to make it an issue, imo.
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Old 2012-06-06, 20:50   Link #415
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I think that one of the core problems with how romance is handled in this show is that we don't see the characters care about much else.

Unless Amata's thinking about his mom, he's thinking about Mikono. It seems to always be one or the other for Amata. ...Freud would probably have a field day with Amata.

Zessica isn't much better, of course, and Kagura is just a single-minded plot device who probably can't help it.


Other viewers have hinted at this, but I think the problem is a lack of "cross-over" communication. What I mean by that is stuff like, say, Amata casually chit-chatting with Yunoha, Zessica casually chit-chatting with Cayenne, Mikono casually chit-chatting with Andy.

Everybody seems to be firmly "locked down" in their particular plot or subplot, and there's not a whole lot of "crossing over" between those locked-down subplots. Andy is always about Mix, Amata is always about Mikono, Zessica is always about Amata, etc...

Now, I'm obviously generalizing here, but it's true enough to make it an issue, imo.
Yeah, the characters are pretty much defined by their romantic situation. Even Shrade and Cayenne to an extent were pretty much locked down in their friendship which is in my opinion the best relationship of the series.
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Old 2012-06-06, 20:50   Link #416
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That is the really weak part of EVOL writing. When the gang got together they never really got together. Like none of them know what other people's issues are. In Genesis they used to sit in a circle and all would gossip. The friends were not just limited to like yunoha-Mikono, or Zessica-Mix or Andy-Amata.

But a lot probably has to do with too many cast members. I liked the Rena is a vampire episode just cause everyone were gossiping and interacting with each other.

No such stuff really happened in EVOL. Its like did they really have any fun? Most of the time characters are melodramatic.
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Old 2012-06-07, 00:51   Link #417
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Now, I'm obviously generalizing here, but it's true enough to make it an issue, imo.
Ultimately, this may not be so much a writer's issue as it is a problem with how many characters there are in the show (which goes beyond the writers and to the imaginairs who put the story together, which may or may not include some of the writers). It would impossible to have "casual" chitchat between characters and almost all dialogue is limited to important details for the plot or character or drama building.

Just look at the roster, starting from big to small:
Amata, Mikono, Zessica, Kagura, Mykage, Fudo, Andy, MIX, Yunoha, Jin, Shrade, Cayenne, Sazanka, Malloy, Izumo, Crea, Donar, and Suomi.
If you have them all talking to each other or even just some cross over, you'd have almost no time left for doing plot things, or backgrounds, or flashbacks, or lore episodes, or an episode where the protagonist has a fist fight with a mirror ().

If this had been four cour, this sort of massive roster of recurring characters that have been given some depth and progression, would have likely come off as more natural but by virtue of the time limits and the cast size, you're left with characters interacting only in *plot important* ways, making them seem obsessed or off their rocker when romance rears its head. You can even see this in the biggest offenders (Kagura doesn't count, he may as well be a building that falls out of the sky or an earthquake or some other natural disaster every five episodes to shake up the scene):
(1.) Amata has these glimpses of being a good person, a good protagonist (someone not whining in a mecha?!), a good guy, but then MIKONO-SAN and absurd stretches of no development with Mikono! I said it way, way back but they started it like a race horse... that tripped a few feet out of the starting gate, limped from Ep. 5 to 12, and then may or may not have gotten shot by a spectator or maybe the judge.
(2.) Zessica? Same thing, good girl, good supporting main, a good person, but then Mykage or Amata, and the plot insists on making her suffer and/or work for her happy ending. Opposite of the above, she was crawling from Ep. 1-6, got a big boost in Ep.7-8, and then was abducted by aliens until Ep. 15 and after that got strapped with some turbo boosters and a time bomb.
(3.) Mikono? Heaven forbid she should speak her mind on any issue (or should someone bring up Kagura ever in any conversation) or the drama would all collapse in on itself, and she goes back and forth between being a character trying to better themselves and magic mcguffin in distress around which everything revolves.
All of the characters have "good traits" hidden or that we've seen glimpses of but the sheer size of the cast has forced those traits to take a back seat to their plot relevant roles. The one time you ever learn really anything about a character is either in their debut or upon their death.
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Old 2012-06-07, 01:36   Link #418
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No. Specifically: Stealing a vector to chase after someone on a "calling" has nothing to do with protecting, saving, or anything of the sort. Just like Zessica did something stupid over getting rejected, Amata did something stupid over a "calling". The rest is simply to point out that Amata losses his head, just as everyone else does. (And let's be fair here, Amata losing his head and self-preservation for a girl from whom he has yet to get an answer (on anything)... is obsession. Especially with the ominous Kagura hanging all over their relationship that they can never seem to talk about.)

That's all it amounts to, Amata is as obsessed as Zessica, as Andy, and the rest of the awkwardly handled cast.
Yeees, because stealing a vector to chase after someone who you love (or hell, even a friend) and who is likely to be in grave danger right now has nothing to do with protecting them, nope, not at all. It's totally obsession. On the level of totaling buildings and killing and harming people just to get a girl who you know really wants to be with you, and also on the level of being debilitatingly depressed over your love interest not liking you that way. (But I suppose Andy is also obsessed for wanting to go to save Mix, even though Mix had just rejected him. And he never even asked if Mix even wanted to be saved, I mean, who knows, maybe she's happier at Altair! Also, everyone else who wanted to go help Mix even though she's not in love with them is obsessed with her.)

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He had a rapist dream,
In which it's the Kagura half of Amagura who does the raping, and Amata can't do anything to stop it, but never mind that.

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
spies on his loved one to listen ways to win her over (breaching her privacy when she was talking to a friend),
Which is not a nice thing, but in comparison, Andy did the same: he knew about Mix's past because he listened when Mikono told Amata. Obviously this makes Andy a sick and obsessed character, too, right? Of course not, because we like Andy but don't like Amata.

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Let's not even touch his mommy issues.
And rightly so, because so far the show itself haven't touched them, either...

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Even the voice actors poke fun it's Mikono's face what he likes.
It was the director, and Christ, wow, way to twist a silly joke about "what if Mikono turned into a guy"! )

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Mikono seems to be the only one who is rightfully not taking a teenage fling seriously.
Yeees, obviously that's the case, especially considering the context.

Amata has his share of flaws even without the writing issues dragging him down, but as far as I'm concerned being unhealthily obsessed on the same level as Kagura or Zessica is not one of them, sorry.

Last edited by kuromitsu; 2012-06-07 at 01:49.
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Old 2012-06-07, 03:32   Link #419
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I think that one of the core problems with how romance is handled in this show is that we don't see the characters care about much else.
Everyone is either focused on his ship (Mikono?), the true Eve (Mikono?) or donuts (Mikono?), wich is enough to give a hint on what EVOL is worth as a whole.

And of course there is Mykage, sitting in his room, watching the whole mess on his computer and sending troll messages from time to time.
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Old 2012-06-07, 07:00   Link #420
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Great post, Vena. The cast may indeed simply be too big for its own good.
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