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Old 2013-01-23, 18:07   Link #281
Arya
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Originally Posted by Blaat View Post
I think there is a difference between the two of them with one of them being intentional the other isn't. Sumire's desire for love is superficial and I think ujiuji's post best described her situation.
The problem with the other situation is that the mangaka never really focused on Taichi/Arata's friendship, so I find it understandable that people don't find it believable.[...]
I wouldn't call their relation friendship either. I do because I somehow got that's the intention of the author, but as you say, the show never focused on it. So what I remember is as Arata used Taichi as a proxy to communicate with Chihaya more than everything else. Taichi waited 25 episodes to call Arata for reasons that wasn't related to Chihaya (IIRC). As if it wasn't for Chihaya they wouldn't ever have kept in touch. The bond they share leans more toward comradeship(?) than friendship apparently.

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Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
On the other hand, I am really taken by ujiuji's point that Sumire loves a Taichi she barely knows. I think this is true of Taichi as well: he has been friends with Chihaya for many years, but he doesn't really get her. In these first two episodes of the new season, we don't see him entering at all into her point of view about the club, neither in her goals for the club, nor in her concerns about bringing the new members into the club. As much as everyone, he is surprised by her explanation about the responsibility she feels for collapsing at the nationals.
I agree about Sumire and also on ujiuji's point, but I can't about Taichi. I think Taichi didn't get Chihaya in these first episodes not because he actually didn't know her, but because she finally started to change.
In the first season I can't remember her focusing in everything else than Karuta. And even when she did, for instance skipping the study session to cheer or comfort Taichi who was playing for Class A, she actually didn't. Probably the scene you just wrote about was the first one in which she acted for Taichi/their club (but Arata had just mailed "her" so who knows). And in the last episode after the queen match she didn't think about Taichi and asked him to play with her, not caring again that he could/should have watched the next match (if not for him, for the club). As he did in the end.
So I don't find that he barely know her. It's just that she is finally changing. Another prove of that was Kana's reaction seeing Chiahaya showing up to clean up the room. She couldn't believe in her eyes
It's like the new members, and she more or less admitted it as you said, or the idea of them, widened her (usually more focused) view. And maybe her greediness is another hint about that.
On the other hand I think that Taichi sometimes tends to be overprotective trying to avoid her frustration. Leading him toward what he thinks it is better for her, and not to what she actually want.
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Old 2013-01-23, 18:19   Link #282
Anh_Minh
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And I think, maybe even if he does know her, he can't quite wrap his head around her way of thinking. In particular, her greed.

He knows that her dream is to be Queen, so to his way of thinking, she should be focusing on that even at the expense of the other things she wants to do. Even if he knows she wants other things almost as much, even if he intellectually knows she's greedy, he can't quite conceive of the inability to let go of secondary priorities.
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Old 2013-01-23, 18:36   Link #283
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
He knows that her dream is to be Queen, so to his way of thinking, she should be focusing on that even at the expense of the other things she wants to do. Even if he knows she wants other things almost as much, even if he intellectually knows she's greedy, he can't quite conceive of the inability to let go of secondary priorities.
I think Arya is right. The old Chihaya wouldn't have cared about the the new members that much, and would have focused more on her own karuta thing. Heck, the old Chihaya left Taichi alone when he was feeling like shit after losing the B class tournament, just to go see Arata play. A real friend doesn't do that.

It's only now that Chihaya is starting to see a bit more of the big picture. She's changing, and that's why Taichi (and the others) are pretty surprised about her current attitude. Chihaya told Taichi that he getting into A class was a priority to her probably because she realizes now that she was an awful friend with him before.
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Old 2013-01-24, 02:39   Link #284
Arya
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
It's only now that Chihaya is starting to see a bit more of the big picture. She's changing, and that's why Taichi (and the others) are pretty surprised about her current attitude. Chihaya told Taichi that he getting into A class was a priority to her probably because she realizes now that she was an awful friend with him before.
Well, I'm not sure why Taichi's A class became a priority (IIRC at words it was even before), but I don't think it's due to her "guilt" about that specific event. But I'm saying it because what I still don't see from her, or what the show still hid from us, is the consciousness of some of her actions. I can't believe that she didn't get what Tsutomu implied that very day asking about Taichi.
In a word, she is dense. So much that we could gender-bender her into another kind of show and start to complain how much the MC is dense in those kind of shows all together. :tongue-in-cheek:
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Old 2013-01-24, 09:09   Link #285
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I'm saying it because what I still don't see from her, or what the show still hid from us, is the consciousness of some of her actions.
Well, even though I said "realizes", I mean it more on an unconscious level. I'm pretty sure that deep down she "knows" she fucked up then. She just doesn't know that she knows it.
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Old 2013-01-24, 09:29   Link #286
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Nice point on Chihaya changing. Tsutomu remarks on this, so that's something we viewers need to notice. I disagree that she was simply self-centered last season: there's lots of evidence to show she consciously participated in making the team come together and succeed.

Chihaya isn't so much dense as she is blind to Taichi's romantic feelings. This comes off as insensitive, but it's more on the order of a blind man not being able to see shapes and colors. Taichi's feelings simply don't register to Chihaya. She isn't ignoring them--they just aren't there to her even to ignore. I can't believe this either, but that's how Suetsugu has characterized Chihaya. (And you can see why. As soon as Chihaya notices Taichi's feelings, then the romance has to go somewhere, and Suetsugu evidently doesn't want that. Hence Chihaya's unbelievable blindness.)

I agree on Taichi being overprotective. His not wanting her to teach the first-years since he knew she would end up being disappointed is him acting just like his mother--don't do anything you can't win at. His love for her is authentic, but conventional, and separates him from her as she is individually. Here I'm thinking of last episode, where Taichi feels bad for Chihaya when she cries about the first-years giving up, when in fact the shift in POV shows us that Chihaya herself is crying for the cards, since they will not be able to make new friends.

Taichi's love for Chihaya is one-sided, an emotional force he is beaming at her from the outside. Taichi's own feelings are what make him different from Chihaya, and divides him from her. By loving Chihaya, Taichi makes himself alone.
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Old 2013-01-24, 09:33   Link #287
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Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
Chihaya isn't so much dense as she is blind to Taichi's romantic feelings.
It has nothing to do with romantic feelings. I mean, sure, she is blind to that too, but she also was an awful friend to Taichi. She needs to change that, and it seems she's starting to. We'll see how it goes.
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Old 2013-01-24, 11:50   Link #288
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I think you're misunderstanding episode 20. Chihaya plays hooky to go to the tournament, to make sure Taichi isn't alone. When she finds out Taichi has lost she is concerned and doesn't know what to say. It is Taichi who changes the subject, so to speak, and tells Chihaya Arata is playing. It is only then that she heads for the playing hall. So, I don't see how she is being a bad friend. She is being good friends to both of them.

Taichi feels jealous, but so what? The episode is basically critical of him for feeling sorry for himself. We know that, since by the end of the episode, Taichi has put his self-pity and jealousy away and admitted to himself he is happy that Arata is back playing karuta.

There's no idea in the episode that Chihaya is being a bad friend.
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Old 2013-01-24, 13:13   Link #289
Utsuro no Hako
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I think Arya is right. The old Chihaya wouldn't have cared about the the new members that much, and would have focused more on her own karuta thing.
Then why did she go to the trouble of making the club in the first place? Remember, Taichi tried to convince her that they could practice on their own without a club, but Chihaya insisted that she wanted other people to play with.
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Old 2013-01-24, 15:09   Link #290
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
I think you're misunderstanding episode 20. Chihaya plays hooky to go to the tournament, to make sure Taichi isn't alone. When she finds out Taichi has lost she is concerned and doesn't know what to say. It is Taichi who changes the subject, so to speak, and tells Chihaya Arata is playing. It is only then that she heads for the playing hall. So, I don't see how she is being a bad friend. She is being good friends to both of them.
No, you're misunderstanding. Taichi tells her Arata's playing. What Chihaya, or any person who isn't an asshole, should have done is stay with him at least enough to make sure he's ok, and maybe then drag him with her to see Arata play. After all, she went there to check on Taichi because she was worried (as a friend) yet, even though she found him feeling like shit and in serious need of a shoulder/some cheering up, she just left him the moment she's told about Arata. No matter who you look at it she failed as a fried. At the very least I know in her place I wouldn't have done something like this, and if I did I would feel like shit afterwards.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2013-01-24 at 15:23.
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Old 2013-01-24, 15:12   Link #291
Arya
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Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
Then why did she go to the trouble of making the club in the first place? Remember, Taichi tried to convince her that they could practice on their own without a club, but Chihaya insisted that she wanted other people to play with.
I think that she did all that for Karuta. As hyperborealis remarked
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Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
[...]Chihaya herself is crying for the cards, since they will not be able to make new friends.
Today like back then, she did that for the cards. It's really simplified as an answer but that's the reason, to the bone.

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I think you're misunderstanding episode 20.
Probably we focused on different things in that episode. Here my take.
If I remember correctly due to her bad grades Chihaya was forced to study having Tsutomu tutoring her. The club decided to stay for her instead of going cheering Taichi. Then she ran away because she didn't want to leave Taichi alone. Once she got there Taichi, as always, told her about Arata. She suddenly leave him alone, without even a word of comfort. She simply forgot about him.
Basically she first ditched her teammates and then Taichi. In fact later she got scolded by Kana, what a good girl And even by Tsutomu. Particularly Tsutomu pointed out the issues asking her how Taichi had dealt with his defeat, he asked if Taichi was depressed. And I think you remember what Chihaya replied to him, or better, what she didn't reply. That no-reply summed up the whole episode in regard of Chihaya. As much as Taichi's reply to Harada summed up the episode, and even more, in regard of him. But even in that case, Harada decided to make that offer because he noticed back at the tournament the whole situation about Taichi, losing the tournament and being ignored by Chihaya.
Having said that, I'm not implying that Chihaya is a bad friend. Because it wasn't like she didn't care of them, but the fact is that when the time came she simply forgot about them. On the other hand, even if the causes differ, the outcome is the same, from an outsider POV.
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Old 2013-01-24, 17:35   Link #292
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
No, you're misunderstanding. Taichi tells her Arata's playing. What Chihaya, or any person who isn't an asshole, should have done is stay with him at least enough to make sure he's ok, and maybe then drag him with her to see Arata play. After all, she went there to check on Taichi because she was worried (as a friend) yet, even though she found him feeling like shit and in serious need of a shoulder/some cheering up, she just left him the moment she's told about Arata. No matter who you look at it she failed as a fried. At the very least I know in her place I wouldn't have done something like this, and if I did I would feel like shit afterwards.
This is what the Empress had to say about the team at the end of the high school championship in episode 15:
Quote:
It's always difficult to accept defeat, even after you're an adult.
Yet, they aren't trying to console each other either.
Why should it be any different in this case?

Last edited by Quadratic; 2013-01-24 at 18:40. Reason: Wrote the wrong episode number
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Old 2013-01-24, 17:57   Link #293
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Why should it be any different in this case?
Not trying to console you and leaving you alone are different things. Besides, Chihaya did go there because she was worried, because she didn't want to leave him alone (she says so as much IIRC) yet, in the end, that's exactly what she did.
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Old 2013-01-24, 18:39   Link #294
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Not trying to console you and leaving you alone are different things. Besides, Chihaya did go there because she was worried, because she didn't want to leave him alone (she says so as much IIRC) yet, in the end, that's exactly what she did.
And Kanade was there, didn't console Taichi and left (and dragged Chihaya out).
Can we call Kanade a bad friend, as well, then?
There would have been plenty of time for Chihaya to "be there" for Taichi if Kanade didn't drag her out, because Arata left a few minutes after Kanade got mad at Chihaya.
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Old 2013-01-24, 19:35   Link #295
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And Kanade was there, didn't console Taichi and left (and dragged Chihaya out).
Can we call Kanade a bad friend, as well, then?
There would have been plenty of time for Chihaya to "be there" for Taichi if Kanade didn't drag her out, because Arata left a few minutes after Kanade got mad at Chihaya.
I'm not saying this to support Chihaya being a bad friend. But the main reason she ran off was to stay by Taichi's side, to not leave him alone. So she thought. But in the end that was exactly what she did. She left him alone. That was underlined by her sudden reaction hearing about Arata. She turned and left him alone, without a word. She switched on karuta-mode.
Later, if Tsutomu didn't ask her about Taichi, she wouldn't ever mentioned he lost. She didn't even know how he felt. As I said, she completely forgot about Taichi.
Instead Kana mailed them to let them know how Taichi did. And if I remember correctly Kana arrived much later so she didn't know that Chihaya practically ignored him. So from her point of view she thought that Chiahaya did comfort him, why should she have thought otherwise? The only observer at that time was Harada, who in fact later tried to reward him. Not that I'm trying to convince anyone here, but to me that episode was quite clear in what wanted to deliver.
And that wasn't her first time. In another tournament once she finished playing, she forgot to go cheering her friends. The show has been consistent in that regard IMO.
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Old 2013-01-24, 21:44   Link #296
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I remember that episode and I definitely agree with Kazu and Arya's interpretation. Chihaya definitely left Taichi alone and forgot about him when she heard Arata was there.

I think Chihaya is a good friend and as seen in this season she is growing in that regard but she was not in that instance.
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Old 2013-01-24, 23:08   Link #297
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Is the topic changing from "evil Taichi" to "evil Chihaya"?

Chihaya's mind is too simple and Taichi's mind is too complex. That's why Taichi is said is the only "shoujo" in the shoujo manga.

What bothers me about are those new members. As other club members, they join the club for their own selfish reason. However, they are not as likable as other supporting characters. I feel they are there for just in case. Just in case author runs our of idea for Chihaya, she can still develop other people's story. It can become the plot's weakness, in the sense of typical sports manga/anime. When there are too many players involved, the story's focus may become blurred. Hopefully, the story will progress further. I am still looking for other karuta team. Some team can be called as all star teams(OP reference). Too bad, they don't have **-chan in Chihaya's team. Chihaya's team is pale in comparison, except the plot is at her side.
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Old 2013-01-25, 02:31   Link #298
hyperborealis
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Originally Posted by Arya View Post
I'm not saying this to support Chihaya being a bad friend. But the main reason she ran off was to stay by Taichi's side, to not leave him alone. So she thought. But in the end that was exactly what she did. She left him alone. That was underlined by her sudden reaction hearing about Arata. She turned and left him alone, without a word. She switched on karuta-mode.
Later, if Tsutomu didn't ask her about Taichi, she wouldn't ever mentioned he lost. She didn't even know how he felt. As I said, she completely forgot about Taichi.
Instead Kana mailed them to let them know how Taichi did. And if I remember correctly Kana arrived much later so she didn't know that Chihaya practically ignored him. So from her point of view she thought that Chiahaya did comfort him, why should she have thought otherwise? The only observer at that time was Harada, who in fact later tried to reward him. Not that I'm trying to convince anyone here, but to me that episode was quite clear in what wanted to deliver.
And that wasn't her first time. In another tournament once she finished playing, she forgot to go cheering her friends. The show has been consistent in that regard IMO.
A couple points. Taichi is already alone when Chihaya comes into the lobby. His solitude marks his depression, not simply at losing, but at the private meaning the loss signifies: the dashing of his plans to make Class A and to compete in the same space as Chihaya. Compounding his depression may be the new prospect of Arata as a romantic rival. Later he will berate himself for not having stayed on the floor to watch and learn from the other players. So we know from his own mouth that his solitude is a mistake, a personal failure. When we recall his words to Harada-sensei, that he wants to become someone who doesn't run away, we recognize that in the lobby, he has precisely run away into himself.

Given this situation, there is no way any friend--and of all friends, especially not Chihaya--can help Taichi in the place he has put himself. Chihaya doesn't want Taichi to be all alone when he wins or loses, but Taichi himself has already decided the issue. Faulting her for not showing more solicitude is quite besides the point, especially when she does fumble a response, only to be halted when Taichi himself changes the subject by bringing up Arata.

Which brings me to my second point. Arata's presence at the tournament is a stunning, overwhelmingly important event for Chihaya. It is not too much to say that the whole reason she and Taichi have created the karuta club is to connect up with Arata again. So it is not at all surprising that Chihaya heads immediately to the match floor to watch Arata play. Again, the idea that she is not being properly attentive to Taichi's feelings is besides the point: at this moment she is fulfilling one of her heart's fondest dreams.

I am not sure why there is an expectation that Chihaya do more than she does. The idea that she is supposed to stay at Taichi's side, or to take care of his hurt feelings--well, to be honest, that smacks of gender stereotypes. It is a viewer's projection of his or her own expectations about friendship onto the show, and not something the show itself expresses.
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Old 2013-01-25, 02:43   Link #299
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I am not sure why there is an expectation that Chihaya do more than she does. The idea that she is supposed to stay at Taichi's side, or to take care of his hurt feelings--well, to be honest, that smacks of gender stereotypes.
No, it's just being a friend. Anyone who isn't an asshat, male or female, would know what to do in her place. And this isn't viewer's projection as the episode itself does rise the issue, as explained by Arya. That's why I don't think we should be trying to make excuses for her. She failed, she fucked up. That's ok, no one is perfect. And she's getting better too. The important thing to take away from this is that she's flawed, as flawed as Taichi, if in a different way. And that's a good thing.
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Old 2013-01-25, 04:47   Link #300
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I'm not saying this to support Chihaya being a bad friend. But the main reason she ran off was to stay by Taichi's side, to not leave him alone. So she thought. But in the end that was exactly what she did. She left him alone. That was underlined by her sudden reaction hearing about Arata. She turned and left him alone, without a word. She switched on karuta-mode.
Later, if Tsutomu didn't ask her about Taichi, she wouldn't ever mentioned he lost. She didn't even know how he felt. As I said, she completely forgot about Taichi.
Instead Kana mailed them to let them know how Taichi did. And if I remember correctly Kana arrived much later so she didn't know that Chihaya practically ignored him. So from her point of view she thought that Chiahaya did comfort him, why should she have thought otherwise? The only observer at that time was Harada, who in fact later tried to reward him. Not that I'm trying to convince anyone here, but to me that episode was quite clear in what wanted to deliver.
And that wasn't her first time. In another tournament once she finished playing, she forgot to go cheering her friends. The show has been consistent in that regard IMO.
Fair point about Kanade.
I personally am not for or against what Chihaya did.
I understood her actions since, to me, her initial concern about leaving Taichi alone seemed to be along the lines of not wanting another Arata situation on her hands (since Arata was left to his own devices and ended up hating the karuta), and when said person actually joined back in the game, it seemed obvious that she'd want to see proof of that over anything else.
If anything, she made a bad assumption that Taichi would have been happier to see an old "friend" back in the game than his own loss (then he "realises" this himself, too!).

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Is the topic changing from "evil Taichi" to "evil Chihaya"?
No, no, no! The real question is who isn't a dick in this show?
(The answer is the ever-faithful Harada-sensei, of course)
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