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Old 2013-06-22, 10:50   Link #1361
Kazu-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
A lot of people are trained. Heck, you could say Taichi trained his memory.
That would fly if we didn't know he had that memory since he was a kid. Though, you certainly can improve on your talents by training.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Not just acceleration. It's just one of his "plethora of weapons".
True, but we were talking specifically about his acceleration technique, didn't we?

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You say that like Taichi's a slacker. The worst one can say about him is that he's got other commitments (if he stops being first in school, he has to quit karuta...). He still trains pretty seriously.
Yeah, it might have come the wrong way. He's not a slacker, that's true, but he still isn't training really seriously either. To get as good as Arata is (and it's not impossible for Taichi) he needs to train as if he intended to fight the Meijin. It's a different level of training.

But don't worry. Now that he's made Class A, and is determined to beat Chihaya, we can probably expect him to begin his real training pretty soon.... though, we won't see this in the anime unless they do a third season....
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Old 2013-06-22, 11:27   Link #1362
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
That would fly if we didn't know he had that memory since he was a kid. Though, you certainly can improve on your talents by training.
Except that we've seen times when his memory failed him, and times where he worked on his memory.


Quote:
True, but we were talking specifically about his acceleration technique, didn't we?
We were talking about a "tangible advantage". Well, his arm acceleration is one. It's recorded on camera. Has he worked for it? Yes. But everyone works to get the most out of their strengths. If training hard was enough to get fast enough to overtake Shinobu, she wouldn't be the Queen.

And when it comes to "hard work beating talent", I doubt he was especially talking about acceleration. That's too dependant on physique, on things you can't do anything about. What if he'd been as short as Tsutomu?

Quote:
Yeah, it might have come the wrong way. He's not a slacker, that's true, but he still isn't training really seriously either.
We don't know that. Part of Taichi's insecurities (and Nishida's, for that matter) is the suspicion that no matter how hard they try, they'll never catch up to Arata.


Quote:
To get as good as Arata is (and it's not impossible for Taichi) he needs to train as if he intended to fight the Meijin. It's a different level of training.

But don't worry. Now that he's made Class A, and is determined to beat Chihaya, we can probably expect him to begin his real training pretty soon.... though, we won't see this in the anime unless they do a third season....
At what point has he ever given the impression he wasn't training as hard as he could?

I can think of three instances.

One when he was about to give up on karuta, back before they formed the club. But his motivation's been renewed since then.

Once when Nishida said he wasn't practicing his swings enough. While maybe true, all it meant was that he was practicing other aspects, not that he wasn't putting in the time.

Lastly, when Tsutomu pointed out that before doing what you want to do, you must do what you have to do. Which is similar to Arata having a part-time job. No one can play karuta 24/7.
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Old 2013-06-22, 12:07   Link #1363
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Except that we've seen times when his memory failed him.
Isn't it because it's harder for him to forget? A karuta player needs to memorize and forget constantly. Taichi doesn't have any problems with the former, but the latter is a constant hurdle for him.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
We were talking about a "tangible advantage". Well, his arm acceleration is one. It's recorded on camera. Has he worked for it? Yes. But everyone works to get the most out of their strengths. If training hard was enough to get fast enough to overtake Shinobu, she wouldn't be the Queen.
I'm just saying there's no special secrete to his arm acceleration. It's just imagining the best position to grab the card and train and train after your arm can't move anymore. Of course, some people are just faster than others, but we saw how he wasn't all that fast when he was a kid. He couldn't beat the adults then, while Shinobu did. Clearly in his case, the intensive training of his arm did a significant difference.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And when it comes to "hard work beating talent", I doubt he was especially talking about acceleration. That's too dependant on physique, on things you can't do anything about. What if he'd been as short as Tsutomu?
He did mean acceleration I think, but yeah, it doesn't mean anyone can do it. I'm pretty sure he does think Taichi can do it though.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
We don't know that. Part of Taichi's insecurities (and Nishida's, for that matter) is the suspicion that no matter how hard they try, they'll never catch up to Arata.
And that's a problem. If they think they can't reach that level no matter how much they try, they never will. You have to put all doubts aside and just go for it. For Taichi, this is crucial, since he's psychologically weak to begin with. He, more than anyone, needs to put every doubt aside if he wants to improve his game. And he'll do it.
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Old 2013-06-22, 12:28   Link #1364
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Isn't it because it's harder for him to forget? A karuta player needs to memorize and forget constantly. Taichi doesn't have any problems with the former, but the latter is a constant hurdle for him.
So? It means his memory isn't perfect. That it isn't always an advantage.

Quote:
I'm just saying there's no special secrete to his arm acceleration. It's just imagining the best position to grab the card and train and train after your arm can't move anymore.
There's no secret to having a good memory either. Base talent, technique and practice, in either case and in many others.

Quote:
Of course, some people are just faster than others, but we saw how he wasn't all that fast when he was a kid. He couldn't beat the adults then, while Shinobu did. Clearly in his case, the intensive training of his arm did a significant difference.
So did all the centimeters he gained, that Murao's pointed out.

Quote:
He did mean acceleration I think, but yeah, it doesn't mean anyone can do it. I'm pretty sure he does think Taichi can do it though.
I think it highly unlikely. Remember the flashback with his grandfather: "what ruins people is their strength". In other words, figure out how to use the opponents' talents, and the habits they developed because of it, against them. Not "gain another strength yourself to trump theirs", because:
- it isn't always realistic
- you may come across some sadistic bastard who will use that very strength against you.

I'm not saying you shouldn't develop your good points. But if that's all you've got, you can't beat talent.
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Old 2013-06-22, 12:36   Link #1365
SeijiSensei
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This emphasis on repetitive training reinforces my earlier belief that Chihaya would not be anywhere near as effective using her left hand. Even if she has impeccable hearing, she'd still need to have the ingrained motor skills to take advantage of her listening ability.

Does anyone know if they recruited another professional reader for this episode? He certainly seemed quite skilled.
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Old 2013-06-22, 12:39   Link #1366
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Reading through the debate, I am really impressed at how well informed and attendant to detail both of you--and indeed everyone in this forum--are. One of the advantages of a long series is that it gives all of us times to become SMEs in the material.

Will seriously miss this show, and this level of conversation.
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Old 2013-06-22, 12:47   Link #1367
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
So? It means his memory isn't perfect. That it isn't always an advantage.
What do you mean by perfect? His memory is so good he has problems forgetting. If he had even better memory, he would have even more problems.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
So did all the centimeters he gained, that Murao's pointed out.
So? Did I ever say Arata was all about his arm speed? Not at all.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I think it highly unlikely. Remember the flashback with his grandfather: "what ruins people is their strength". In other words, figure out how to use the opponents' talents, and the habits they developed because of it, against them. Not "gain another strength yourself to trump theirs", because:
- it isn't always realistic
- you may come across some sadistic bastard who will use that very strength against you.
You can only use your opponent's strengths against them if you have weapons of your own to attack those weak points. What I mean is that this is all related. Having a very fast arm is how you reach a card before someone who has better reaction time than you can do it, for example. It's not his only weapon, but it's definitely one of the main ones in his toolset.
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Old 2013-06-22, 16:21   Link #1368
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
What do you mean by perfect? His memory is so good he has problems forgetting. If he had even better memory, he would have even more problems.
If his memory was better, he'd remember what match he's playing instead of getting confused.

To me, "memory" is a whole. It's the ability to remember, at any given point in any given match, where the cards are and what cards have been read. Taichi is superior in that area. But saying he has trouble forgetting is the same as saying he's sometimes mistaken in his recollections, and that's the same as saying his memory is flawed. It doesn't matter if he's mistaken because he's remembering a previous match or if it's just because his memory is hazy in the first place.


Quote:
So? Did I ever say Arata was all about his arm speed? Not at all.
My point is that his height, or rather, the length of his limbs, is playing a part in his speed. If he was too short, no matter how much he practiced, he wouldn't be as fast. And aside from height, there are other, more subtle limits on how much good practice can do for him. That he was able to take it this far - it's "talent".

Quote:
You can only use your opponent's strengths against them if you have weapons of your own to attack those weak points. What I mean is that this is all related. Having a very fast arm is how you reach a card before someone who has better reaction time than you can do it, for example. It's not his only weapon, but it's definitely one of the main ones in his toolset.
Sure, but do you think he'd just give up on karuta if he didn't have it? "Hard work beats talent". I think it means almost anyone can beat someone who only has talent if they put in the work. Not anyone can develop arm speed like Arata, but that just means they need to work on something else.
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Old 2013-06-22, 16:29   Link #1369
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
Reading through the debate, I am really impressed at how well informed and attendant to detail both of you--and indeed everyone in this forum--are. One of the advantages of a long series is that it gives all of us times to become SMEs in the material.

Will seriously miss this show, and this level of conversation.
I am just wondering if anyone else will be continuing with the manga? Granted I don't know when I will even get to it as I have so much to read right now but it would be fun to continue to discuss the series with everyone.

I know the manga thread doesn't get the same amount of participation but I hope more people will be reading (and what I read of the manga: the first two bilingual editions was very good).

But I am definitely going to miss the anime. And even if we get a 3rd season it's not going to be like with the 2nd season where we know shortly after. We have a long wait ahead.
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Old 2013-06-22, 16:54   Link #1370
SeijiSensei
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On the "Midori-chan" issue again for a moment....

If the roles were reversed, would it be as acceptable for her to use "-kun?"
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Old 2013-06-22, 17:12   Link #1371
Anh_Minh
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Why not? Isn't that how she addresses her male students? And no honorifics at all for Rion.
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Old 2013-06-22, 17:20   Link #1372
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
If his memory was better, he'd remember what match he's playing instead of getting confused.

To me, "memory" is a whole. It's the ability to remember, at any given point in any given match, where the cards are and what cards have been read. Taichi is superior in that area. But saying he has trouble forgetting is the same as saying he's sometimes mistaken in his recollections, and that's the same as saying his memory is flawed. It doesn't matter if he's mistaken because he's remembering a previous match or if it's just because his memory is hazy in the first place.
I don't think memory works that way, but who knows.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
IMy point is that his height, or rather, the length of his limbs, is playing a part in his speed. If he was too short, no matter how much he practiced, he wouldn't be as fast. And aside from height, there are other, more subtle limits on how much good practice can do for him. That he was able to take it this far - it's "talent".
I didn't say there was no talent at all to this, did I? I just said it wasn't an immediate advantage like having a super ear and really fast reaction time. And it's true. It takes work and time to develop your arm speed, even if you have some talent, but the super hearing is something that (besides being somewhat unrealistic) you can use since day one. For example, Chihaya already had a clear advantage since the first time she played when she was a kid, thanks to her superior hearing and reaction time, even though she was totally untrained.

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Sure, but do you think he'd just give up on karuta if he didn't have it? "Hard work beats talent". I think it means almost anyone can beat someone who only has talent if they put in the work. Not anyone can develop arm speed like Arata, but that just means they need to work on something else.
I don't disagree with this. If I was talking about Arata's arm speed especially is because you brought it up. Although, since Arata's and Taichi's playing styles have similar principles, Taichi will probably start to work harder on his arm. After all, he can be faster than he is right now, and he knows it. He also needs to work on his physiological state, of course. Learn to keep it cool and all that.
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Old 2013-06-22, 17:33   Link #1373
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I don't think memory works that way, but who knows.
It's not about how memory works, it's about what we mean when we say "memory" in the context of karuta.

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I didn't say there was no talent at all to this, did I? I just said it wasn't an immediate advantage like having a super ear and really fast reaction time. And it's true. It takes work and time to develop your arm speed, even if you have some talent, but the super hearing is something that (besides being somewhat unrealistic) you can use since day one. For example, Chihaya already had a clear advantage since the first time she played when she was a kid, thanks to her superior hearing and reaction time, even though she was totally untrained.
Being faster is immediately advantageous too. Besides, it takes practice to turn super-hearing into something that isn't "just fast", as Chihaya's been accused of being.


Quote:
I don't disagree with this. If I was talking about Arata's arm speed especially is because you brought it up. Although, since Arata's and Taichi's playing styles have similar principles, Taichi will probably start to work harder on his arm. After all, he can be faster than he is right now, and he knows it. He also needs to work on his physiological state, of course. Learn to keep it cool and all that.
You're saying his speed is 100% hard work. I'm saying natural talent played a part.

You're saying that when Arata said hard work beat talent, he was specifically thinking of how practicing your swings would make you faster. I think at most it's just one of the things you can work on.

And Taichi doesn't use the cross hand, which is apparently a major feature of Arata's play. Taichi's never been shown to really get under the skin of his opponents, either.
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Old 2013-06-22, 18:00   Link #1374
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It's not about how memory works, it's about what we mean when we say "memory" in the context of karuta.
Well, I was talking about how memory works. Having really good memory means remembering fast and for quite a long time. If this isn't ideal for karuta (and it isn't) that's another thing entirely.


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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Being faster is immediately advantageous too.
If you are already really fast, but no one is, since the movements of your limbs are naturally slower when you're a kid. You become faster as you grow up, and if you work really hard you can become even faster (and even more so if you have some "talent" on top of that). Either way, it takes time and hard work to get to that point. Arata's training was pretty intensive, and it's not only about speed, but more so about form (the way the arm moves). That's why imagining the best movement was so important during his training; it wasn't just about moving his arm fast like an idiot.


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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You're saying his speed is 100% hard work.
I didn't say that. But I do think it's like 70% hard work in Arata's particular case. Mostly because, like I said above, he was training his arm to move in a particular way, not just to be faster.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You're saying that when Arata said hard work beat talent, he was specifically thinking of how practicing your swings would make you faster. I think at most it's just one of the things you can work on.
I did say he was talking about his swing, but not that it was only about that.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And Taichi doesn't use the cross hand, which is apparently a major feature of Arata's play. Taichi's never been shown to really get under the skin of his opponents, either.
He did. Unconsciously when he was winning in "depressed-mode" during the Class B tournament (Retro can't concentrate at all seeing him like that, for example), and later during his match against Rion, when he remained calm after she got a card (and you see that this affects her noticeably). Also when he changed the card positions. There's many ways to throw your opponent out of his/her game.

Ah, and here's a gif of Taichi practicing Watari-te (Cross Hand), though you may be right we haven't see him using this in a match yet:



The thing with Taichi's that he's still in development. Arata too, but his style is already pretty refined. I hope there's a third season because I want to see Taichi truly develop his style.
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Old 2013-06-22, 18:06   Link #1375
SeijiSensei
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Why not? Isn't that how she addresses her male students? And no honorifics at all for Rion.
Well, she's 39 and the students are teenagers. Are you saying that if she were, say, 55 like the director, and he was 39, she would still use "-kun?" That is actually not far from the age and intimacy relationship between Sharon and Mutta/Hibito in Space Brothers. In the current episode when she reunites with Hibito, she doesn't use "-kun;" she simply calls him Hibito.
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Old 2013-06-22, 19:36   Link #1376
Sol Falling
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Just managed to catch the episode. Pretty intense for sure. Shinobu's perseverance and concluding satisfaction were incredible here, although the "fever" revelation did really feel like a convenience.

I could really do without any of the shiptease in this series though, though I guess I'm in the minority there :P.

One point that did really intrigue me was how Arata was presented as the manifestation of the Chihayafuru concept. That concept being both Chihaya and the title's namesake, I wonder what it represents for Chihaya's own character journey, as well as Arata's. One the one hand, that "impassionate serenity" of the gods does still seem quite far out of Chihaya's reach -- years down the road even -- considering it's an infusion of Arata's entire demeanor, not just his karuta play. On the other hand, if Arata expressly takes up representing the end point of Chihaya's development, how does he develop/what will define himself? As an individual distinct from Chihaya's character concept. After this sort of showing, it will be curious to see where Suetsugu-sensei takes Arata's character next.


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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I didn't say there was no talent at all to this, did I? I just said it wasn't an immediate advantage like having a super ear and really fast reaction time. And it's true. It takes work and time to develop your arm speed, even if you have some talent, but the super hearing is something that (besides being somewhat unrealistic) you can use since day one. For example, Chihaya already had a clear advantage since the first time she played when she was a kid, thanks to her superior hearing and reaction time, even though she was totally untrained.
Butting in here, I don't disagree with the premise that Arata has gotten where he is now via straight up incredible practice. It's not any particular talents which are carrying him, but finely honed skills developed through days of constant effort and experienced tutelage. However, where I really take issue is the idea that Chihaya or Taichi's accomplishments are any cheaper/more down to pure talent. That is honestly pretty insulting, and it's not like where they are right now (interhigh team champions, but far from the backs of whom they are chasing) isn't directly proportional to their room for growth/improvement.

I think the whole idea of scapegoating Chihaya's achievements through "she's a genius, it's her ears which give her an advantage" is pretty bullshit, to say it straightly. Let's not forget that Chihaya comes with an equal weakness in her own memorization skills, handicapping her early game and giving her trouble with multi-syllable cards. The truth is that no character in particular has come equipped with the perfect talents to get a free walk over opponents, and that every win they have grasped over others has been shown as something which they have had to earn. Some players start slower than others, but the game of karuta is not so simple as to allow any character to simply coast on a single skill. Rather, it has been shown to be diverse enough to be a field of cultivation for any number of unique talents. In the same way, just because Arata has not been shown to overwhelm in any particular field of ability, does not mean his overall "stats"/potential were not always high. Regardless of his potential, it was down to practice to hone him to the point where he is now, and that goes the same for everyone else.

The fact is, there's a general rule of human ability which makes an estimate of 10,000 hours to achieve the mastery of any art. That's for human capacities in general; if even a genius can't buckle down and put in the work to that level, they will be left behind. While there are some limitations, and at least some level of suitability for a task is probably required to get very far, the simple induction is that natural variation in human abilities alone is hardly a drop in the bucket versus that required level of sheer conditioning. For an amateur/hobby sport like karuta, reaching that kind of plateau must certainly come down to passion moreso than any short-term 'talent'. In that same way, I have never seen what's fascinating about Chihaya's journey with karuta being merely some supposed 'talent' for it, but rather the unending, unstoppable storm of the passion she has cultivated.
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Old 2013-06-22, 19:38   Link #1377
Guardian Enzo
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
A lot of people are trained. Heck, you could say Taichi trained his memory.


Not just acceleration. It's just one of his "plethora of weapons".


You say that like Taichi's a slacker. The worst one can say about him is that he's got other commitments (if he stops being first in school, he has to quit karuta...). He still trains pretty seriously.
Yes, by that logic if John Stockton has practiced 500 times a day, he could have had Michael Jordan's vertical leap.

Taichi trains damn hard - he just doesn't practice his swings as hard as Arata does (and he's admitted he needs to do so more). Considering he has team responsibilities and Arata doesn't, I think Taichi puts just as much time in on improving his own game as he possibly could.

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On the "Midori-chan" issue again for a moment....

If the roles were reversed, would it be as acceptable for her to use "-kun?"
Absolutely yes.
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Old 2013-06-23, 03:58   Link #1378
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Well, she's 39 and the students are teenagers. Are you saying that if she were, say, 55 like the director, and he was 39, she would still use "-kun?" That is actually not far from the age and intimacy relationship between Sharon and Mutta/Hibito in Space Brothers. In the current episode when she reunites with Hibito, she doesn't use "-kun;" she simply calls him Hibito.
Omitting honorifics is more familiar, not less. I think they just don't change the way they address each other without good reason. I don't know how many would consider "we're both older now" to be a good reason. Heck, there are cases, at least in anime, where "we've married each other" isn't a good reason.

So she wouldn't call 30 years old she just met "-kun". But it's possible (likely?) she'd address her old students like that.

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
He did. Unconsciously when he was winning in "depressed-mode" during the Class B tournament (Retro can't concentrate at all seeing him like that, for example),
We don't know what transpired in that game, except that Taichi was much, much stronger than usual. Retro may well have been perfectly able to bring his A-game, and still got owned.

Quote:
and later during his match against Rion, when he remained calm after she got a card (and you see that this affects her noticeably).
I think it's more down to Rion's weakness than Taichi's sadism. Besides, him being so calm is not usual for him.

Quote:
Also when he changed the card positions. There's many ways to throw your opponent out of his/her game.
He just changed to an anti-Chihaya formation. It's not something he does regularly against all kinds of opponents.

Quote:
The thing with Taichi's that he's still in development. Arata too, but his style is already pretty refined. I hope there's a third season because I want to see Taichi truly develop his style.
I think it's just too early to say they've got similar styles. It's possible Taichi will get closer to Arata (the way Chihaya's getting closer to Shinobu), but we haven't really seen it yet.

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Old 2013-06-23, 08:11   Link #1379
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Except that we've seen times when his memory failed him, and times where he worked on his memory.
Sidestepping the "is it natural talent vs trained talent?" argument, if I recall correctly, the times it failed on him was when his fatigue was getting to him, so that's not really a good argument to say whether his memory is perfect or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
He did mean acceleration I think, but yeah, it doesn't mean anyone can do it. I'm pretty sure he does think Taichi can do it though.
Why would he think Taichi can achieve the same/similar level of acceleration? Has Arata seen Taichi play post-elementary school (I actually can't recall if he has...)?
Anyway, Arata's advice to Taichi (which was Arata's grandpa's advice to him) was "there are plenty of other ways to take cards faster." (the last ep of season 1). Then Taichi takes this advice to break Chihaya's concentration by threatening to burn her daddy bears (and starts practises swinging).
It seems to me that the advice is more to do with breaking your opponents by whatever means possible, rather than get there faster by having a faster acceleration than your opponent.
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Old 2013-06-23, 09:37   Link #1380
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
It seems to me that the advice is more to do with breaking your opponents by whatever means possible, rather than get there faster by having a faster acceleration than your opponent.
Agreed...though it's not always 'sadistic', so-to-speak.

Consider what the cross-hand technique allows a player to do. Suppose the Chigiriki-o and Chigiriki-no cards are both on the field. Normally, a player would go for the correct card upon hearing the deciding syllable. Someone with good hearing (kanji) would thus have the advantage and be able to go for them before their opponent hears the deciding syllable - typically when the preceding syllable is read (ki, in this case).

Suppose now that both cards are on one player's half of the field, and have been split up. With the cross-hand, an astute player can also reach for the cards upon hearing the preceding syllable, rather than waiting for the deciding one. Hence, being good at the cross-hand allows players without the gift of hearing to challenge those with the gift of hearing.

That said, someone with the gift of hearing using it with the cross-hand would be formidable indeed!

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Training is an interesting topic to ponder, especially if anyone wants to consider another reason for Arata being able to challenge Shinobu despite having lost one and a half years. Putting aside the fact that she was sick, of course...though it's suggested that it didn't affect her all that much, really, given how she walked over everyone else in her path to the final.

As we know, Shinobu trains alone; hence her unique style of play has been developed with regards to just her own talents and her strong link with the cards. Without being seriously challenged by anyone, or studying how other people play, she has little idea how Arata defeated her all those years ago. Hence, she was unable to prevent his psychological 'attack' from affecting her again - and arguably still hasn't realised how he does it. Training with others and getting advice from them - and especially from his grandfather - is one of the reasons Arata is able to strategise to take down players with arguably more 'talent' than him.

That is to say, fellow team members, fellow players, can help one get better at the game. Does this settle the loner vs. team player debate once and for all? Well, let's see about Suou...

----

The sending and movement of cards during play is also an interesting tool that can be used, though it's probably less about taking cards 'faster' as opposed to making sure that you're the one picking up the correct card. What Taichi did in the team final against Eromu to make him commit a fault is a good example.
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