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Old 2012-06-16, 10:20   Link #101
marvelB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Clearly, he was just HNNNNNNNGGGG at Monet.

Who wouldn't.
In that case, how come he wasn't bleeding half to death through his nose instead of his mouth (like Sanji in the previous arc).....



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Originally Posted by andy View Post
Side note this whole idea that croc was nerf or underestimated luffy in there 3rd fight is a load of crap .

Now see, I pretty much expected this type of response to pop up as soon as I posted that. The reason why I put "nerf" in quotation marks in the first place was because I WASN'T trying to belittle Crocodile. I'm just saying that due to his rage towards Luffy in their third fight he pretty much abandoned playing it smart like he did during the first 2 rounds (y'know, both those times where he nearly killed him with little effort). And he kind of was still taking him lightly, since he kept yammering on about how much of a rookie he was throughout the fight. It's somewhat similar to Moria's blunder in using Shadows Asgard instead of relying on his clever shadow tricks like he was doing when controlling Oars.....
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Old 2012-06-17, 01:19   Link #102
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
Now see, I pretty much expected this type of response to pop up as soon as I posted that. The reason why I put "nerf" in quotation marks in the first place was because I WASN'T trying to belittle Crocodile. I'm just saying that due to his rage towards Luffy in their third fight he pretty much abandoned playing it smart like he did during the first 2 rounds (y'know, both those times where he nearly killed him with little effort). And he kind of was still taking him lightly, since he kept yammering on about how much of a rookie he was throughout the fight. It's somewhat similar to Moria's blunder in using Shadows Asgard instead of relying on his clever shadow tricks like he was doing when controlling Oars.....
You need to reread that fight , Luffy is a rookie so calling him that is not big deal .
In 2 fights Croc had the advantage, in the 3rd fight he took him very serious but could not fight him like the 2 fights before.
Luffy had the advantage in the 3rd fight by know his weakness , moves and Croc was force to fight with CQC in a enclose area.

After reading back the chapter , i am sure CC must have use some sort of gas to cut off luffy breathing .
Since he is holding his neck before he goes down .

Last edited by andy; 2012-06-17 at 01:45.
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Old 2012-06-17, 02:43   Link #103
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But suffocation shouldn't hit that fast unless there is immense outside pressure. If CC is simple cutting off breathing, Luffy should at least struggle a bit, getting a few attacks out at same time and not just suddenly drop dead.
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Old 2012-06-17, 04:06   Link #104
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But suffocation shouldn't hit that fast unless there is immense outside pressure. If CC is simple cutting off breathing, Luffy should at least struggle a bit, getting a few attacks out at same time and not just suddenly drop dead.
True , well we will see soon.
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Old 2012-06-17, 11:55   Link #105
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I don't know why but as I re-read the chapter out of boredom I really thought "I wish Jinbe was here." :I
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Old 2012-06-18, 12:57   Link #106
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Originally Posted by andy View Post
You need to reread that fight ,

Interesting you say this, because I did exactly that right after I had made that post! Now, here's the page that leads right up to Luffy's finishing sequence:


Spoiler:



^Now while it's true that Croc was surprised with Luffy's strength, notice that he was still taking him somewhat lightly right up to the last moment ("But do you know who I am!?") So that still doesn't contradict my earlier words.


And really, the CQC thing didn't matter too much either since Croc already told Cobra before Luffy's arrival that he could escape the temple by turning the rocks into sand, so it's not like distance was ever an issue, in the first place. It basically boils down to what I already said about him being so caught up in his rage that he abandoned playing it cool like he did in the first 2 rounds....


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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
I don't know why but as I re-read the chapter out of boredom I really thought "I wish Jinbe was here." :I

Not 'til the Big Mama sings.



And just a quick reminder to the folks out there that THERE'S NO CHAPTER THIS WEEK. You're just gonna have to be patient for another week.....
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Old 2012-06-18, 13:26   Link #107
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^Let's not forget, Haki also helped in Croc's defeat. In fact, I'm quite willing to believe that it was Luffy's rudimentary use of his Haki that helped him defeat Croc, not simply the little blood on his hands.
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Old 2012-06-18, 16:11   Link #108
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^Let's not forget, Haki also helped in Croc's defeat. In fact, I'm quite willing to believe that it was Luffy's rudimentary use of his Haki that helped him defeat Croc, not simply the little blood on his hands.
Does that mean Luffy had been using Haki without knowing he had it/knowing what it was?
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Old 2012-06-18, 16:23   Link #109
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That has always been a possibility, especially since Oda already included Haki right from the start with Shanks striking fear into the seaking after losing his arm.

He may have planned to include Haki right from the start, but he probably haven't established the mechanics of Haki in One Piece.

Haki is part of the common concept of willpower and determination being the source of strength in the Japanese culture and not just in Shounen manga.

Luffy's extraordinary determination to overcome obstacles may be an early form of development for Haki as part of both writing and the mechanics of Haki itself.
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Old 2012-06-18, 18:19   Link #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mateus View Post
Does that mean Luffy had been using Haki without knowing he had it/knowing what it was?
I don't think that's hard to believe. In the trial battle on Amazon Lily, he was in the exact same position. Without knowing what he did, Luffy used Haki, which Oda confirmed through the warrior ladies himself. Similarly, it was implied quite a couple of times, that at least Zoro has used the Color of the conquerer here and there, apparently without knowing it, since he did not know such a thing even existed.

Of course "implied" is the wrong word here, since I doubt that Oda really had the idea of Haki in his mind from the beginning on. Bringing up the concept of this mysterious power now, however, it does suggest the conclusion that Haki had been displayed even before Oda knew about it. Remember, the meaning of art is not something that is determined by the artist, but by the way a particular piece of art is displayed and interpreted. And to be honest, it was a very clever way of Oda to fill some minor plot holes like the blood on Luffy's hand, that couldn't have possibly been a real advantage against Croc on its own. It's much more likable that Luffy in his naivety believed that it could be effective, which in turn boosted his determination and set free his inner power.
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Old 2012-06-18, 18:56   Link #111
andy
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
Interesting you say this, because I did exactly that right after I had made that post! Now, here's the page that leads right up to Luffy's finishing sequence:


Spoiler:



^Now while it's true that Croc was surprised with Luffy's strength, notice that he was still taking him somewhat lightly right up to the last moment ("But do you know who I am!?") So that still doesn't contradict my earlier words.


And really, the CQC thing didn't matter too much either since Croc already told Cobra before Luffy's arrival that he could escape the temple by turning the rocks into sand, so it's not like distance was ever an issue, in the first place. It basically boils down to what I already said about him being so caught up in his rage that he abandoned playing it cool like he did in the first 2 rounds....

You have this idea in your head that because Croc keep on calling him out he was not taking him serious or not fighting fully .
Chapter 204 page 16 Croc calls luffy a dangerous enemy you don't do that unless you take someone serious .
He also use his poison hook which was his trump card another thing you don't do unless take someone serious .

Your next point is about him taking it cool in the first 2 fights but he could not do that in the 3rd.

In the first fight of course Croc was cool because he knew luffy had no idea how to hit him .
He did not even bother to dodge most of luffy attacks and he was in the desert .

The 2nd fight luffy found out how to hit him but was still at the disadvantage because he had to hit Croc with water or put it on his body .
Croc was also fighting long range and Mizu luffy was no use , Croc just suck up the water when luffy try to stop ground death .

Now look at the 3rd fight your saying Croc should have been able to fight the same way when he no longer had his intangible , was not in a open space\desert .
Luffy already knew some of his moves chapter 205 show this when he try to catch his hand , Luffy was also always close to him unlike the other fights.
Your saying he could have done ground death but would luffy allow him to do since he already knew what is was .

What you are doing is ignoring everything that Croc had going for him that made the first 2 fights easy\different and also ignoring the knowledge Luffy gain from them .
Any way this going Off topic so lets take it to pm don't want james0246 to get angry .

Last edited by andy; 2012-06-18 at 19:17.
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Old 2012-06-18, 19:40   Link #112
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Not to mention, right after Arabasta arc and Croc's defeat, Blackbeard said there's no way Luffy is worth only 30m bounty with his haki.

At the time we all assumed the word was generic, and not an actual term in OP world.
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Old 2012-06-18, 19:41   Link #113
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^Let's not forget, Haki also helped in Croc's defeat. In fact, I'm quite willing to believe that it was Luffy's rudimentary use of his Haki that helped him defeat Croc, not simply the little blood on his hands.
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Originally Posted by Mateus View Post
Does that mean Luffy had been using Haki without knowing he had it/knowing what it was?
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
That has always been a possibility, especially since Oda already included Haki right from the start with Shanks striking fear into the seaking after losing his arm.

He may have planned to include Haki right from the start, but he probably haven't established the mechanics of Haki in One Piece.

Haki is part of the common concept of willpower and determination being the source of strength in the Japanese culture and not just in Shounen manga.

Luffy's extraordinary determination to overcome obstacles may be an early form of development for Haki as part of both writing and the mechanics of Haki itself.
I agree with this assumption, forget about the Croc fight, the blood part can be argued, it's the Enel fight that I think would fit the theory better.

After, while rubber is insulate to electricity, it doesn't really explain how Luffy was able to touch Enel especially in the latter part of the fight.
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Old 2012-06-18, 19:57   Link #114
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Not to mention, right after Arabasta arc and Croc's defeat, Blackbeard said there's no way Luffy is worth only 30m bounty with his haki.

At the time we all assumed the word was generic, and not an actual term in OP world.
Totally forgot about that .
Good memory .
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Old 2012-06-19, 01:39   Link #115
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Let's just say that there's good reason why many (including myself) still dispute the legitimacy of Luffy's victory over Croc in round 3 to this day. In a nutshell, Croc didn't fight at his best whereas Luffy did. And that's quite enough from me on this topic seeing as how I've already debated this extensively in the past with other members here. It's a challenge to make the opposing side concede to your argument, so it's best to just agree to disagree altogether .
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Old 2012-06-19, 02:45   Link #116
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the introduction of haki is one of the things that impressed me about oda-sensei's writing. it was introduced in the very first chapter of the series and was slowly explained as the series progressed. i believe that oda meant for it to play a huge part in the story and even for luffy to learn it eventually. unlike most writers who would seemingly pull techniques and power-ups out of their asses, oda was very careful in introducing haki to his readers.
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Old 2012-06-19, 03:25   Link #117
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Of course "implied" is the wrong word here, since I doubt that Oda really had the idea of Haki in his mind from the beginning on. Bringing up the concept of this mysterious power now, however, it does suggest the conclusion that Haki had been displayed even before Oda knew about it. Remember, the meaning of art is not something that is determined by the artist, but by the way a particular piece of art is displayed and interpreted. And to be honest, it was a very clever way of Oda to fill some minor plot holes like the blood on Luffy's hand, that couldn't have possibly been a real advantage against Croc on its own. It's much more likable that Luffy in his naivety believed that it could be effective, which in turn boosted his determination and set free his inner power.
Actually Oda most likely knew and planned Haki right from the start.

As I mentioned, Haki and other will power and determination concepts are very common in Japanese culture. That act of starring and striking fear into enemies is a very common display of Haki ability. It just depends on how the author wants to name the type of Ki he uses.

One of the most famous examples of Ki is 'Touki', battle spirit, in Fist of the North Star, Haki functions just like it. Touki is the strength of the warriors will to fight, it gives him power and protection.

Those with the highest level of Touki can radiate so much of the Ki that they don't have to stare at you, if you look at them, you will feel countless punches beating you into submission because his will to fight is too damn strong. Their Touki is so strong that just standing there, their Touki emissions can carve and break down the ground and rocks around them.

This concept of Ki is even brought into mecha used in Super Robot Wars, where a race of martial artist mecha pilots inspired by Fist of the North Star called Shura use Touki to power their mecha. The mecha will suck the will out of any body in the vicinity, only those with stong Touki can stay conscious not to say even try to pilot it.

And like all highest level Ki users, the strongest Shura can channel its Ki through his mecha and stare through the mecha's eyes to strike fear into other mecha. Their Ki doesn't just help them smash up other mecha, but reshape landscapes in every fight, break down mountains and burn forests etc.
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Old 2012-06-19, 03:34   Link #118
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It's true that variations of the willpower concept are popular in manga and anime. I was under the impression, that the author came up with Haki relatively late into the series. However, aohige seems to have catched a mention of Haki much earlier, which I hadn't. Of course back then, the term could have been used much looser, but if Oda really had the concept in his mind back during the Arabasta arc and slowly built it up and made tiny suggestions here and there, well then that just adds to his genius.

Ultimately though, it does not matter when Oda himself consciously made an effort to introduce Haki, since it doesn't change anything about the manga itself.
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Old 2012-06-19, 05:13   Link #119
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Ultimately though, it does not matter when Oda himself consciously made an effort to introduce Haki, since it doesn't change anything about the manga itself.
it matters to me though. i don't appreciate things that seemingly come out of nowhere with no foreshadowing whatsoever. they feel too contrived to me. most manga-ka tend to give their characters power-ups that they introduce at the most convenient moments that they seem like ass-pulls (well, most of them are). but haki is different. it has always been there, we just didn't know enough about it. what seemed like a random "killer stare" to scare off a sea king was actually the power behind shanks. we didn't know it then but this same ability would later play a huge part in the series. i believe oda had haki in mind from the very beginning, i just don't think he has fully thought it out yet so he took his time in developing it as the series progressed.
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Old 2012-06-19, 05:37   Link #120
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I agree on everything you just said, except that I don't understand why it matters to you whether or not the author set all those stepping stones towards the reveal of Haki intentionally. The series makes sense, and the power did not feel like a cheap a** pull at all. Judging from what you said, that's what's important to you, and it is just as important to me. But even if Oda did pull Haki out of nowhere some 150 chapters ago or something, that wouldn't change anything, because the series is written in a way that Haki was slowly built up. Whatever his intentions were does not impact the story.
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