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Old 2012-06-19, 13:00   Link #121
The Small One
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
most manga-ka tend to give their characters power-ups that they introduce at the most convenient moments that they seem like ass-pulls (well, most of them are).
It always depends on the perception of the events.
IMHO the introduction of Luffy's gears in Enies Lobby also was an ass-pull. He was fighting CP9 just a few hours ago and losing badly and suddenly he has this technique ready.
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Old 2012-06-19, 14:42   Link #122
marvelB
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@andy: Well, it seems that no matter what, our views the Crocodile fight will always clash. I think it's best at this point to just take BDK's advice and agree to disagree. After all, I already said from the beginning that I didn't really like carrying on these kind of discussions, anyhow.....


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Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
IMHO the introduction of Luffy's gears in Enies Lobby also was an ass-pull. He was fighting CP9 just a few hours ago and losing badly and suddenly he has this technique ready.

Ah yes, I think I remember you bringing this up before. But it was actually kind of hinted that Luffy came up with the gears shortly after his loss to Aokiji (if memory serves me right, about a week had passed between the Aokiji encounter and the crew's arrival at Water 7, so it's not like he couldn't have done some slight training during his recovery). And even then, it was already pointed out that he didn't have complete mastery over them, anyway (remember Lucci's comment about how Gear 2 was too much for his body to handle?). If anything, Zoro and Sanji were WAY more guilty of ass-pull techniques during that arc (especially Sanji).....



Also, the reason why Luffy "lost" to Lucci in W7 was because he wasn't focused due to all the confusion going on at the time (Robin abandoned the crew with no explanation whatsoever, and was willing to let them be framed for Iceburg's murder at that.... and all this just a day after Usopp left). And if you don't believe me..... well, you don't have to take my word for it:


Spoiler:



You can take Oda's word for it.
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Old 2012-06-19, 16:08   Link #123
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I personally believe that he didn't plan haki from the start. He just re-explained convient incident later. I think Oda begin to plan haki during skypia arc when he developed "mantra". Skypia is the first time we were introduced to haki as mantra.

I think haki didn't exist before skypia arc. I can be wrong though.
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Old 2012-06-19, 16:23   Link #124
marvelB
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^So I guess you missed Aohige's post from the last page, then:


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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Not to mention, right after Arabasta arc and Croc's defeat, Blackbeard said there's no way Luffy is worth only 30m bounty with his haki.

At the time we all assumed the word was generic, and not an actual term in OP world.

Plus, Shanks intimidating the sea king in the very first chapter sure looked like an early foreshadowing of CoC haki, to boot.....
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Old 2012-06-19, 16:30   Link #125
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post

Plus, Shanks intimidating the sea king in the very first chapter sure looked like an early foreshadowing of CoC haki, to boot.....
Air of Intimidation/Killing Air is very common in Martial Arts novels.
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Old 2012-06-19, 16:37   Link #126
marvelB
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^I know, but seeing as haki is related to that very concept (as CA has explained so many times in the past), I don't see any contradiction to what I said.
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Old 2012-06-19, 19:23   Link #127
andy
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I do think Oda had Haki plan from the start maybe not like we know it but the concept .
It just took him longer to get to it than he first thought .
We know Oda has plans \ chars that he already think up it just takes years before we see it .
Ace death is something he said he plan from the beginning (It's up to you to believe him or not) and that took years before it happen .
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Old 2012-06-20, 11:01   Link #128
aohige
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I went to dig up my old tankoubons.

Specifically, it was chapter 234, in volume 25, when Teach mentions Luffy's Haki.
At the time, we were not introduced to Shanks' haki on Whitebeard ship yet, so there was nothing indicating the term to be anything but a generic use, so I bet the English translations didn't call it "haki". Which would lead to majority of English speaking community not catching it in retrospect.
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Old 2012-06-20, 11:10   Link #129
ronin myael
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Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
Judging from what you said, that's what's important to you, and it is just as important to me. But even if Oda did pull Haki out of nowhere some 150 chapters ago or something, that wouldn't change anything, because the series is written in a way that Haki was slowly built up. Whatever his intentions were does not impact the story.
i wasn't really talking about the story but rather my own preference. maybe it didn't matter to the plot but it mattered to me. if he just introduced haki some 150 chapters ago, i wouldn't buy it as much as i do now. just as The Small One pointed out, i like luffy's gears but since there wasn't any real build up for them, i'm not as impressed with them as i am with haki.
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Old 2012-06-20, 14:17   Link #130
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
i wasn't really talking about the story but rather my own preference. maybe it didn't matter to the plot but it mattered to me. if he just introduced haki some 150 chapters ago, i wouldn't buy it as much as i do now. just as The Small One pointed out, i like luffy's gears but since there wasn't any real build up for them, i'm not as impressed with them as i am with haki.
i totally agree. i think the gears are fun, but i never really liked them a lot. haki feels much more impressive and plot driven.

on another note, just an aside from another manga about using a similar "warrior's will to fight" foreshadow:

Spoiler for in naruto:


i do believe that oda had haki planned out and ready to use based on the quotes you guys have found/remembered, but I also think that any smart writer would plan things like this in advance. not to take anything away from it, just that ideally, powers shouldn't be asspulls like in bleach for instance
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Old 2012-06-20, 14:22   Link #131
marvelB
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
At the time, we were not introduced to Shanks' haki on Whitebeard ship yet, so there was nothing indicating the term to be anything but a generic use, so I bet the English translations didn't call it "haki". Which would lead to majority of English speaking community not catching it in retrospect.
Funny you should mention that. Here's Blackbeard's lines in the earliest scan of that chapter:


Spoiler:



^Interestingly, he says "chi" here. But as you said, I doubt most people would have caught on to it anyway since those early scans were all kinds of sloppy in the first place (case in point: Blackbeard's name is translated as "Masaru D. Chocheh" here ). But still, wouldn't the same technically be true of the Japanese fans, as well? Because I'm pretty sure that it wasn't until Shanks' meeting with Whitebeard that it was implied that "haki" was more than a generic term.....
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Old 2012-06-20, 15:10   Link #132
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Quite the haki debate happening here..

I always thought that Oda had a general idea with respect to the great powers in OP:

- devil fruits
- sea kings
- the sea/ocean
- haki
- self-determination

What I'm calling self-determination is the ability for one to develop ones self beyond normal human, i.e. zoro, this also encompasses the will of the d etc.... He may not have known the three types of haki bla bla, but all of these things are shown at the very beginning of the series. They also seem to be inter-connected in some way.

- devil fruit nullified by the sea (old concept)
- sea kings dominate the sea (old concept)
- haki overcome devil fruit (newer?)
- self determination (old concept)

Shanks told Buggy: "I once heard that the devil's fruits are all the sea-devil's incarnations....If you eat it you'll gain a special ability, but you won't be able to swim" (Chapter 19, pg 14)

The relatedness may be a consequence of the nature of these concepts, i.e. fighting abilities which are pit against each other, or a reference to a natural order in the one piece universe i suppose; i lean towards the latter.

Things like the void century, world nobles seem to have been introduced later on with little foreshadowing.
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Old 2012-06-20, 15:23   Link #133
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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This discussion on the "inception" of Haki reminds me of the discussion on BB's abnormal body. Back when Luffy first met BB, Nami asked who BB was, to which Luffy responded, "I don't know. But it's not "He"". Bewildered by such a comment, Nami asked, "then...what?", to which Zoro replied, "it's probably "they"".

Seeing as how Luffy, Zoro, and Nami, saw Burgess and encountered Doc Q shortly before they met BB, one could easily surmise that Luffy and Zoro knew BB had crewmates/companions with him.

Then many chapters later, during the Enies Lobby arc, we find out from Lucci that it's impossible for a person to possess more than one DF ability as their body would explode in that circumstance.

Skip ahead to the Marineford arc, and Teach demonstrates the capacity to wield more than one DF ability by "stealing" Whitebeard's quake ability. Marco then comments that normally one shouldn't be able to possess two abilities, but that perhaps Teach's "abnormal" body is what let him defy the impossible.

So with all that being said, did Oda really foreshadow BB being an "abnormal" person with the "they" comment from Zoro, or were Luffy and Zoro just simply referring to BB's crewmates? Personally, I go with the latter.
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Old 2012-06-20, 16:45   Link #134
Mateus
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So there's no new chapter out this week??
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Old 2012-06-20, 17:22   Link #135
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
But still, wouldn't the same technically be true of the Japanese fans, as well? Because I'm pretty sure that it wasn't until Shanks' meeting with Whitebeard that it was implied that "haki" was more than a generic term.....
You're missing my point.
I said "retrospect".

Meaning, Japanese fans thoght the term was used generic at the time, but after haki was introduced into the story, we can recall back to when the term was used in the past.
But to non-Japanese, since the term didn't even EXIST (through translation), they aren't given that option.
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Old 2012-06-20, 17:29   Link #136
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^I know, but seeing as haki is related to that very concept (as CA has explained so many times in the past), I don't see any contradiction to what I said.
i am saying it could have meant nothing as much it could have foreshadow Oda's concept of Haki.
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Old 2012-06-21, 04:21   Link #137
ronin myael
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So with all that being said, did Oda really foreshadow BB being an "abnormal" person with the "they" comment from Zoro, or were Luffy and Zoro just simply referring to BB's crewmates? Personally, I go with the latter.
i can believe that he had it planned out. just like he knew he had to kill off ace and whitebeard and blackbeard would play a huge part in their deaths. oda is the kind of writer who plans ahead. i doubt he just plucked the idea of blackbeard gaining the yami yami no mi out of nowhere. he might have created it specifically to be the fearsome ability that would defeat ace, steal whitebeard's DF and help blackbeard gain a yonkou seat. when oda first introduced the character it was obvious that he had big plans for him, so it's not that farfetched to think that oda had already developed the character, including his DF, before he was introduced.
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Old 2012-06-21, 07:24   Link #138
golgo13
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
i can believe that he had it planned out. just like he knew he had to kill off ace and whitebeard and blackbeard would play a huge part in their deaths. oda is the kind of writer who plans ahead. i doubt he just plucked the idea of blackbeard gaining the yami yami no mi out of nowhere. he might have created it specifically to be the fearsome ability that would defeat ace, steal whitebeard's DF and help blackbeard gain a yonkou seat. when oda first introduced the character it was obvious that he had big plans for him, so it's not that farfetched to think that oda had already developed the character, including his DF, before he was introduced.

The "they" comment (ch 225 pg 16 for those interested) foreshadowing his ability would be pretty ridiculous on Oda's part. The companions argument is pretty clear, ch 222 is called "New Heavy-Weight Characters", 3 blackbeard characters are shown before blackbeard himself. It's also pretty clear to luffy that blackbeard is different than other pirates in the town and has a larger ambition; this alludes to being part of a crew since you rarely (ever?) see pirates do things alone.

I tend to agree blackbeard was destined to be a supervillain; perhaps not ch 0, but when he was introduced isn't far fetched. Blackbeard was first mentioned (ch 133) by dalton as "The Black Mustache Pirate". Ace was shown shortly after, also in drum (translated as vorpel back then?) and they did mention "was not snow that day"; definitely foreshadowing his firery ability. It looks like the showdown between the two was planned ahead and given the relationships Ace will have, whitebeard, roger, luffy, garp etc... definitely sets blackbeard up to be a big villain and ultimate enemy of luffy. Given that, I could picture Oda giving a destined notorious villain a distinct power.

Last edited by golgo13; 2012-06-21 at 07:40. Reason: grammar
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Old 2012-06-21, 13:08   Link #139
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
i can believe that he had it planned out. just like he knew he had to kill off ace and whitebeard and blackbeard would play a huge part in their deaths. oda is the kind of writer who plans ahead. i doubt he just plucked the idea of blackbeard gaining the yami yami no mi out of nowhere. he might have created it specifically to be the fearsome ability that would defeat ace, steal whitebeard's DF and help blackbeard gain a yonkou seat. when oda first introduced the character it was obvious that he had big plans for him, so it's not that farfetched to think that oda had already developed the character, including his DF, before he was introduced.
I, too, believe that Oda conceived of these things well in advance before those events unfolded in the story. It's just that in retrospect, some feel that the "they" comment was referring to BB having an "abnormal" body (something additional/different that allows him to house more than one DF in his body). In this particular case, Luffy and Zoro referring to BB's crewmates makes a lot more sense and is much more logical.
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Old 2012-06-21, 16:51   Link #140
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Maybe other writers help him on the story
Wouldn't Oda have a group of people he could bounce Ideas or a plots off of? Seems like he does a lot of research on real things and draws inspirations from them. But the complexity of his story seems like a lot of work for just one guy. Does he have others help him develop characters or give him suggestions, maybe even help him write some of the archs? I know there are people who do interfere with his story. Like White Beards pirate Icon was originally a Swastika behind the skull, but Oda changed it. Some of the subjects like Haki, Devil fruits, organizations, Islands, details of one piece world seem pretty complex. Did he write the Marine Ford War by himself? If he did this all by himself the he got one hell of a mind and he is very objective person. The characters are really balanced and a lot of them are written really well.
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