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Old 2012-06-17, 10:26   Link #21
Archer
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For Fate/Zero, I don't think it's so much being late on production as it is simply not having enough time in the usual television time constraints. It's like how movies have to be edited for television broadcast since they have to add in breaks and commercials. This is especially true for Fate/Zero's case, since all of the cut content in the television broadcast so far are not enough to warrant its own episode.

Poor planning would be something like cutting back on the Rin episode (the one everybody hates) only for people to realize that the Saber, Rider and Archer discussion had to be cut in half because they had to squeeze in Kariya in the first half of the episode. Fate/Zero simply works outside of the television broadcast limitations and edits it to fit those limitations (even removing the OP to retain more content). You can't really hold it against the show for working outside those limits, since the final product (the blu-ray version) works better because of it.
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Old 2012-06-17, 10:51   Link #22
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I am not a novel reader but after watching episode 24 I think what was missing in a certain fight with Saber and another character (don't want to say more because of spoilers) was extremely lacking and could only be blamed on poor editing.

This scene should not be limited to the BR because viewers who are not going to buy the BR pretty much lose everything about this fight except the action.

I am willing to understand that everything might not make it to the TV broadcast, but something that I think is essential to the story should have been there. And I can certainly look back and see maybe other scenes that could have been moved to the BR instead.
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Old 2012-06-17, 11:47   Link #23
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I am not a novel reader but after watching episode 24 I think what was missing in a certain fight with Saber and another character (don't want to say more because of spoilers) was extremely lacking and could only be blamed on poor editing.

This scene should not be limited to the BR because viewers who are not going to buy the BR pretty much lose everything about this fight except the action.

I am willing to understand that everything might not make it to the TV broadcast, but something that I think is essential to the story should have been there. And I can certainly look back and see maybe other scenes that could have been moved to the BR instead.
I've reviewed the episode again, and everything that's already in this episode took precedence over what wasn't. Whatever was excluded simply did not have the same importance to the show as the stuff that was. And the show did attempt to show off as much as it possibly could, even cutting off the OP for more screentime.

Yes, it's unfair to the people that only watch the television broadcast, but every television broadcast is meant to be a limited run anyway. A show with an ending is a show that runs only for a given amount of time before it's replaced with a different show. And when the show is taken off the air, the only version of the show that'll exist is the home-distributed version, which for Fate/Zero's case are the blu-rays.

The choice was this: Plan with television limits in mind, and make compromises that'll affect all versions of the show. Or plan around those limits, and make compromises that'll only affect a single version of the show. Neither choice is a great choice, but the second choice is the better of the two.
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Old 2012-06-17, 15:38   Link #24
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Some would manage to fix some of the errors or at least better complete scenes if the show was shown in a repeat or for the video release (once that technology became viable). But some errors were never fixed.
Even now, many errors are never fixed. There have been a few cases in which a production committee has apologized to fans and demanded a large scale overhaul. However, we don't usually see many fixes beyond minor cleanup (a redrawn character here and there, etc.).

Why? No one gets paid for retakes. The studio position is that the animator screwed up, so he or she is asked to do a retake without pay (or more typically, the responsibility goes to the animation director who was in charge of that particular shot). Likewise, the production committee's position is that the studio received their money already, so the onus is on them to do it right.

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The classic example of this are several efforts around Shinbo productions -- where much of the episode is reduced to a sequence of stills due to problems in production.
1) Moon Phase and its entire fight scenes animated as a still drawing of a fireplace or window while you heard all the action (later corrected in the DVD)
Perhaps it's intentionally done to ensure that no budget is spent when preparing the broadcast version. If a shot is restricted to a still, I assume that the contracted animators won't be properly paid (according to the number of drawings originally allotted) until they've finished the DVD takes.
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Old 2012-06-17, 18:53   Link #25
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Originally Posted by TJR View Post
Perhaps it's intentionally done to ensure that no budget is spent when preparing the broadcast version. If a shot is restricted to a still, I assume that the contracted animators won't be properly paid (according to the number of drawings originally allotted) until they've finished the DVD takes.
Moon Phase is a bad example - in that case the outsourced animation house actually totally fucked up the sequences and there was no time to fix them before air time.

Later shows like Monogatari... it's a mix. Sometimes its a bit of art, sometimes its actually not making the deadline (one famous opening screen shot basically apologizing for the episode fans were about to watch).

Shinbo has basically turned what was a duct tape for a panic situation and turned it into an art form on its own over the last few years
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Old 2012-06-26, 01:57   Link #26
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Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
Actually, I'll defy you and talk about it anyway, since you said something that may not be completely correct.

I'm sure that there are censorship restrictions, but in the vast majority of recent cases, television anime is not censored because it is "too hot for TV".

I was personally surprised to a teenage female character's bare behind shown without censorship in the TV airing of Star Driver, which is a late afternoon anime. At the time, I was used to seeing late-night anime censor things as harmless as panty shots.

Then I realized that these anime, airing late at night, are perfectly capable of showing lots of nudity, but the distributors deliberately hold back and censor it themselves (with steam, for example, but sometimes things like animals are used instead) to entice viewers to buy the BD. This doesn't normally happen with non-"fanservice anime" like Star Driver because the main appeal isn't the fanservice and nudity.

Of course, this becomes a big problem when the main appeal behind your anime is the fanservice and there's not much else to entertain with, like with Softenni. When that happens, the censorship kills the entire point behind the TV broadcast and and becomes a disservice and insult to the TV watchers rather than just a hook to buy the BD. This is why I rarely watch fanservice-oriented anime while they air nowadays.
Oh, I never got back on this topic, but the above depresses me. This kind of censorship is still somewhat understandable but comes off as just souring the experience.

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As someone who unwittingly watched Bakemonogatari while it aired, I'll admit that Shaft really messed up on it. I'm glad that Madoka Magica didn't suffer a similar fate.
I found Bake unwatchable as it aired, though that might be due to other reasons. Watching the bluray to complete the series helped matters a bit, but I have a rather short fuse towards that franchise still it seems due to the experience.

Anyhow, back on topic, I guess my main opposition to the whole thing is that I almost never watch the remastered version of anything if I have a choice. Even when I purchase the media, I may look at the extras once or twice and never really go back to it. Usually me purchasing the media is just supporting the franchise-- I don't actually watch what I bought most of the time as a whole. So I guess for me, it's a one shot thing for shows and I'd rather have the main things be there on the first airing and the extra touches I can live without.
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Old 2012-06-26, 02:04   Link #27
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How is this any different from what Hollywood has been doing for decades, called "Director's cut"?
This is coming from someone who proudly went to buy those LotR collectors DVD set, with figurines and insane amount of movie time added.

Not a penny spent that I regret.

Which reminds me, I need to preorder that huge Marvel Cinematic Universe movie box set thingy.
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Old 2012-06-26, 02:07   Link #28
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Which is why I started to refer to it as "media" at the end, as it applies to that as well I guess.
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Old 2012-06-26, 02:43   Link #29
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Oh, I never got back on this topic, but the above depresses me. This kind of censorship is still somewhat understandable but comes off as just souring the experience.
I know, right? This is why you might like to think twice before watching the TV airing of a fanservicey anime.

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
I found Bake unwatchable as it aired, though that might be due to other reasons. Watching the bluray to complete the series helped matters a bit, but I have a rather short fuse towards that franchise still it seems due to the experience.
The long lull between later episodes is what keeps me from having a proper opinion on the anime's quality. Haven't gotten around to rewatching it yet, but I do plan to.

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How is this any different from what Hollywood has been doing for decades, called "Director's cut"?
This is coming from someone who proudly went to buy those LotR collectors DVD set, with figurines and insane amount of movie time added.
In the case of tLotR, it's very difficult to have a theatrical movie nowadays that's longer than 3 hours (and even that is hard to make). This is because cinemas recently have gotten much more greedy, and want more movies to air in a day because that increases profits. Really long movies get in the way of that and have a chance of being rejected by cinemas. Many decades ago, you could have a movie as long as 4 hours and intermissions were common, but not anymore, sadly.
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Old 2012-06-26, 02:47   Link #30
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^you can't put the whole blame on studio's greed.

Audiences do not like to sit through such long hours to watch movies anymore either.
Consumer demand is certainly responsible for chunk of the blame.
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Old 2012-06-26, 03:48   Link #31
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^you can't put the whole blame on studio's greed.

Audiences do not like to sit through such long hours to watch movies anymore either.
Consumer demand is certainly responsible for chunk of the blame.
That's probably correct too.
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Old 2012-06-26, 05:04   Link #32
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I was personally surprised to a teenage female character's bare behind shown without censorship in the TV airing of Star Driver, which is a late afternoon anime. At the time, I was used to seeing late-night anime censor things as harmless as panty shots.

Then I realized that these anime, airing late at night, are perfectly capable of showing lots of nudity, but the distributors deliberately hold back and censor it themselves (with steam, for example, but sometimes things like animals are used instead) to entice viewers to buy the BD. This doesn't normally happen with non-"fanservice anime" like Star Driver because the main appeal isn't the fanservice and nudity.
I actually already addressed this argument elsewhere (in someone's blog post that was based on this thread), but I don't think this is really quite the cause-and-effect relation you think it is.

It is true that some shows have integrated censorship into their production (because it has become something of an "inside joke"). But, in truth, a lot of late-night TV anime is censored by the TV stations, which is why you will notice different levels and styles of censorship between different broadcasts of the same show (with some stations being more conservative than others, and satellite/Pay TV channels being less strict). But the censorship applied may not be driven out of strict necessity or legal requirement, but out of a desire from the stations to avoid controversy ("out of an abundance of caution"). Even within the same station (or the same episode!) a TV channel can be quite inconsistent in terms of what they allow and what they won't, and this could certainly apply as well to the example you mentioned. If a show is filled with "questionable" content, they will give the show a closer look than a show that rarely contains it, where they may not bother checking and only act upon if someone complains.

So, while various studios have turned TV censorship schemes into a marketing opportunity, I don't think you can argue that it is entirely a cynical ploy to drive sales. To be honest, I'm not even sure if we can say conclusively that it does drive sales; some of the most popular fanservice-driven anime in recent memory aired on stations that required less censorship, as there is appeal in the "shock value" of just how much you can show on TV (even if it is Pay TV). In the end, of course those buying the Blu-Ray will want the product the way the director/artists truly intended it; often that removes censorship, but sometimes some is still there if the director/producers/etc. wanted it that way.
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Old 2012-06-26, 06:10   Link #33
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Well take a Hollywood example. The Lord of the Rings.

Each film had I think at least half an hour added to it for the DVDs. And the films make more sense with those sceness. But he films held up in the theater just fine.

The movies were just too long for theater viewing.
ye i agree with this, take for example Fate/Zero it has deleted scenes on the TV airing due to time limitation of a TV format, so expect the BluRay version to show the full episode scenes without time limitation

so far what i understand from making Blu-Ray more better is
- TV airing has time limitation, not all scenes of an episode can be shown on 24 mins
- perfecting the animation quality, its either intentional so that people can buy the bluray/dvd discs or just simply they got less amount of time again to perfect the animation quality (quality checking problems) when they air it on TV
- additional materials like bonus episodes is due to not enough TV airing schedules, like what happened to Baccano that it only has 13 episodes TV schedule so the additional episodes are now part of the DVD/BluRay Discs as far as i know, and also some bonus short animation clips is for getting more sales
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