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Old 2012-06-17, 11:16   Link #21
Kirarakim
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Actually I am perfectly fine with split cours. I mean I guess I would rather not have to wait and get the entire series at once but I also don't think anything is wrong with waiting to give a chance for the production team to improve on the 2nd half of the story or to let the source material get a bit ahead.

Now if the split cour is not planned and approved of ahead of time then that's a different story, but I think in the case of Fate Zero for example they knew from day 1 it was going to be a split cour and I think it turned out just fine.


I also wish some long running series would employ this method. What I would give for One Piece to take breaks between seasons. Unlike a lot of shounen One Piece doesn't have much filler but the series moves as slow as molasses. It would be so much better if they did an arc of the manga and then put the series on hold until more material of the manga was available.
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Old 2012-06-17, 11:25   Link #22
Westlo
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Fine with it, especially if it means no more recap episodes, even though some 2 cour series that aired recap episodes never included them officially like RahXephon and Code Geass.

Though as ultimatemegax mentioned being able to release 2 sets of 6 volumes instead of 1 set of 9 volumes is a factor for companies as well.

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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
I'm actually more concerned about how it might affect the writing. Split-cour strikes me as a way for production committees to hedge their bets and only release the second half if the first one makes enough money to justify continuing. That would make it much more difficult to write a coherent 24-26 episode script.

Split-cour seems rather different from traditional sequels like the forthcoming second season of Moyashimon or the two Nodame sequels. In the case of Nodame Cantabile, for instance, the show could have ended after the first season, but the success of the property created a demand for manga sequels and their accompanying anime adaptations.

Another case in point might be Claymore. The clumsy ending of that show makes me suspect Madhouse hoped or expected to produce a second season since the manga had already continued past the end of the animated release. When the bad news came down that 26 episodes would be it, we got a hasty and unsatisfying ending for the anime. That type of ending could be more common in split-cour series if the studio doesn't know whether the production committee intends to finance the second cour until late in the first season.

On top of all this you have the usual problem of anime adaptations being released before the manga concludes. If the source material is already long enough to support both halves of a split-cour release, it's probably less of an issue than if the second cour depends on as-yet unpublished, or worse unwritten, manga content.
This makes no sense at all, split cours shows what they are because they are split in half to air in two different seasons. Both seasons are planned and funded without any bearing on how well the first season does. It has nothing to do with "oh we'll wait and see if the show is a success". For most split cour shows you have a 3 month break in between seasons... you really think that's enough time to fund stuff? Plan stuff? Some shows BD/DVD sales come in a month after airing...

The only time I can think this affected a split cour show is when the massive bomb in Mitsudomoe had only 8 episodes in the second half instead of another 13 like the first season. Considering the episodic material of the show it was easy enough to reduce the episode output though. Of course maybe 8 episodes was the plan all along... but regardless what you said has no bearing on how split cour shows work.

Claymore ended like it did because it was the only possible ending point they could use... and even than it messed up things so badly from the manga that it's impossible to make a sequel using the anime ending. The original manda ending was Berserk Golden Age like, sans the rape.

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Can't say I approve of it very much-- it breaks the flow and makes it less prevalent in my mind. To me, Fate/Zero didn't seem to be designed with this in mind, and it didn't leave off at the halfway point being particularly exceptional. It also didn't help that near it came that infamous filler episode that was good in its own right, but not placed especially well. Even standard 2-cour series like Shana would know how to do that right.

And then there's Lagrange; which might have ended at the halfway point on a good note but I wouldn't know, because they had a bunch of rather boring as hell episodes approaching it, and at this point pretty much any interest I had died a few weeks back.
Yes Fate/Zero was never designed to be like this even though the original source was released in 4 LNS over the course of a year And what the hell stops Fate/Zero from having an "infamous" filler episode if it aired for 25 episodes straight? What the hell stops Lagrange from having some boring episodes from 8-12 or whatever if it aired for 26 episodes straight? Nothing whatsoever. Instead you'll have those same episodes and more than likely a recap episode to go along with it if they run into production troubles, something which split cour was designed to ease. Notice how you don't get recap episodes with split cour series? Remember Gundam SEED Destiny having 3 in 50 episodes....

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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Now if the split cour is not planned and approved of ahead of time then that's a different story,
In addition to being a different story it's also not a split cour series.
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Old 2012-06-17, 11:34   Link #23
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post

And then there's Lagrange; which might have ended at the halfway point on a good note but I wouldn't know, because they had a bunch of rather boring as hell episodes approaching it, and at this point pretty much any interest I had died a few weeks back.
well if lagrange just increased the fanservice it would be a hell of a show.

well anyway back on topic are we talking about shows like fate/zero which was made with the specific intent on it being a split 2 cour anime, cause lets face it those are pretty rare honestly the only series i know that have done that is fate and lagrange.

I really dont see the point of spliting it why not just show all of it at one go if its intended to be a 2 cour anime
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Old 2012-06-17, 11:38   Link #24
Westlo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Om Nerabdator View Post
well if lagrange just increased the fanservice it would be a hell of a show.

well anyway back on topic are we talking about shows like fate/zero which was made with the specific intent on it being a split 2 cour anime, cause lets face it those are pretty rare honestly the only series i know that have done that is fate and lagrange.

I really dont see the point of spliting it why not just show all of it at one go if its intended to be a 2 cour anime
Split Cour shows before Fate/Zero.

Asura Cryin' + Asura Cryin' 2
Mitsudomoe + Mitsudomoe Zouryouchuu!
Kami nomi zo Shiru Sekai + Kami nomi zo Shiru Sekai II (The second season was leaked before the first even aired)

All flops (so stop with that hedge their bets nonsense), all aired 3 months after the first season.

Some shows flat out say they're split cour, others wait... I think the smarter straight is not to mention it... I mean it's the difference between....

"Oh shit I have to buy Jormungand so I can see the awesome part near the end animated!" vs "Oh second season coming so all will be animated.. no need to buy this than lol".

Of course for power houses like Fate/Zero it doesn't matter..
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Old 2012-06-17, 11:49   Link #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Yes Fate/Zero was never designed to be like this even though the original source was released in 4 LNS over the course of a year
What bearing does that have? It only has bearing if each and every one of these 4 LNs requires the exact same amount of TV time in anime format, which may well not be the case.


Quote:
And what the hell stops Fate/Zero from having an "infamous" filler episode if it aired for 25 episodes straight?
The filler episode could have conceivably been added so that the first cour would end on a good moment for ending a first cour within a split cour format (a cliffhanger moment in Fate/Zero's case).

This isn't a concern if you can do a "straight run" of 24 to 26 episodes without needing an end point/cliffhanger point of sorts half-way in between.


Quote:
Instead you'll have those same episodes and more than likely a recap episode...
Recap episodes are thankfully rather rare, as it is, and less common than they used to be, at least in my experience. The last recap episode I can recall is one for Chihayafuru. Other than that one, I can't recall seeing a recap episode in ages. There's plenty of traditional two cour anime shows without recap episodes, and many of them are recent.

And I very much doubt that Fate/Zero would have bothered with a recap episode even if it did take a traditional two cour approach.
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Old 2012-06-17, 11:58   Link #26
Westlo
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
What bearing does that have? It only has bearing if each and every one of these 4 LNs requires the exact same amount of TV time in anime format, which may well not be the case.
Archon says that Fate/Zero didn't seem designed with this break in mind, something I find pretty funny considering if you followed the novel release from the start you had to suffer through 3 breaks.

Quote:
The filler episode could have conceivably been added so that the first cour would end on a good moment for ending a first cour within a split cour format (a cliffhanger moment in Fate/Zero's case).

This isn't a concern if you can do a "straight run" of 24 to 26 episodes without needing an end point/cliffhanger point of sorts half-way in between.
Most two cour shows with an ongoing plot have some sort of halfway point "end/moment" regardless, and plenty of 2 cour series have had "fillerish" episodes included as well as episodes that dragged like Lagranges, blaming this on split cour is silly.

Quote:
Recap episodes are thankfully rather rare, as it is, and less common than they used to be, at least in my experience. The last recap episode I can recall is one for Chihayafuru. Other than that one, I can't recall seeing a recap episode in ages. There's plenty of traditional two cour anime shows without recap episodes, and many of them are recent.

And I very much doubt that Fate/Zero would have bothered with a recap episode even if it did take a traditional two cour approach.
If they needed to use a split cour model in the first place than they needed the time to give their team a break, recaps occur when you have production problems.... It's not like Aniplex/UFOTABLE made Fate/Zero a split cour series in order to sell 12 volumes instead of 9. As for recaps they can and have happened (lol Wolf's Rain), i've never seen one in a split cour show and the only time I've seen one for a one cour was Bakemonogatari.. and well that was LOL SHAFT and like RahXephon and Code Geass they ignored it.
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Old 2012-06-17, 12:07   Link #27
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
This makes no sense at all, split cours shows what they are because they are split in half to air in two different seasons. Both seasons are planned and funded without any bearing on how well the first season does.
How common were they in the mid-2000's when the industry was more flush? This isn't a rhetorical question, but a factual inquiry. If economics hasn't played a role in the use of this format, then split-cour shows should have been a common feature of anime productions for years. Were there always split-cour shows, but I just missed them?
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Old 2012-06-17, 12:35   Link #28
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Well, in fairness, I guess that lessening the likelihood of recap episodes arising is a minor point in Split Cour's favor.

I doubt Split Cour is having a huge impact here - maybe, say, one fewer recap episode a year - but every little bit helps.
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Old 2012-06-17, 13:40   Link #29
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Somewhat funny note regarding recaps: since Aniplex ran Fate/Zero in a lot of the same timeslots as Nisemonogatari, they aired two recap episodes of the "first season" to bide time until the end of the season and the start of the "second season." These recap episodes are included on the fifth ("bonus") BD of the second BD-Box. That's one way to help new fans who don't want to watch 13 episodes prior.
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Old 2012-06-17, 14:33   Link #30
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Recaps use to be more for the animators. So they would have time to catch up. But also sometimes if a story ran short. There use to be shows that provided a basica recap at the beginning of each show. Some were longer than others, either depending on how behind the animators were or had short the week's story was.

A clip show would be if the animators were so behind they needed a padding to catch up. Or the story was set of say 26 episodes but the story could only really be told in 25...so one clip episode is added to fill in the time slot.
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Old 2012-06-17, 14:54   Link #31
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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
How common were they in the mid-2000's when the industry was more flush? This isn't a rhetorical question, but a factual inquiry. If economics hasn't played a role in the use of this format, then split-cour shows should have been a common feature of anime productions for years. Were there always split-cour shows, but I just missed them?
It's a new trend. The split-cour strategy arose out of a need to accommodate studio/animator schedules, plus it allowed home video distributors to squeeze more out of customers.

The latter rationalization would be one of economics. However, the former could possibly be a response to some of the schedule problems faced during the mid-2000s when the number of productions increased. Whatever the case, the industry has readily adopted the split-cour format, so their strategy must have some positive effect.
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Old 2012-06-17, 16:57   Link #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Yes Fate/Zero was never designed to be like this even though the original source was released in 4 LNS over the course of a year And what the hell stops Fate/Zero from having an "infamous" filler episode if it aired for 25 episodes straight? What the hell stops Lagrange from having some boring episodes from 8-12 or whatever if it aired for 26 episodes straight? Nothing whatsoever. Instead you'll have those same episodes and more than likely a recap episode to go along with it if they run into production troubles, something which split cour was designed to ease. Notice how you don't get recap episodes with split cour series? Remember Gundam SEED Destiny having 3 in 50 episodes....

.
Lol, so just because other things do it worse means it's okay? Oh sure, you might have a point, but if you think Gundam Seed Destiny should be used as a standard of anything, I have no interest in engaging in such a discussion.

And yes, being 2 connected cours DOESNT prevent those boring episodes from being aired, but as I said earlier it breaks the flow and reduces excitement because when the series goes on hiatus you're stuck with the image of not so great episodes, in Fate/Zero's case good but not as epic, and in Lagrange's case, it made the series forgettable.

Of course, if you spent a little more time reading than ranting on my post and realizing that we are talking about split cour specific shows you would have realized I say this, but I know, my posts are too hard to appreciate.
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Old 2012-06-17, 19:16   Link #33
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It's a new trend. The split-cour strategy arose out of a need to accommodate studio/animator schedules, plus it allowed home video distributors to squeeze more out of customers.
Yup, exactly. But, just to be a bit more clear, it's a new trend but perhaps not as new as what some people think. Starchild/King Records was experimenting with this format back in 2007/2008 with shows like Sayonara Zetsubou-Sensei (Summer 2007/Winter 2008 split-cour) and D.C. II/D.C. II S.S. (Fall 2007/Spring 2008 split-cour). These continued over the subsequent years with Natsu no Arashi, and Arakawa Under The Bridge. Natsume Yuujinchou also has been animated in two split-cour seasons, first in 2008/2009 and then again more recently. So I think that has actually been happening for a while now, but people are becoming more aware of it now that some higher-profile productions are employing it. (In terms of the amount of split-cour productions, I'm actually not sure if it really is more than it was 4-5 years ago or not.)

Probably worth mentioning that Clannad was also a "split-cour" show, just in a "two cours on, two cours off" format. The entire thing is really one big production, with the airing divided for production reasons... and that's really what is meant by "split-cour". This as opposed to the more common case where a show is successful and green-lit for a "second season" where production begin as soon as the first season ends (and so the airing will generally occurs about 12-18 months later -- that gives you a sense of the normal production lag-time; a single episode takes many months to produce). This is also why it's somewhat useful to define "cour" separate from "season"; a second season usually means a separate production, but a second cour is an extension of the original production.

As was alluded to earlier, the main reason for this is because of the shortage of animators, and the difficulty in scheduling good animators/sub-contractors for a tight production schedule. The gap allows them to spread things out a little bit more so they can do a longer show with a smaller group of people/companies, rather than having to hire more and more contractors and having the quality and particularly consistency of the art/animation suffer. I'm sure that the marketing strategy that this facilitates (for example, being able to sell more volumes of DVDs/BDs and not get the same push-back) is what helps fund this extra time (because otherwise you might say "why don't they just start working on the show earlier and wait until they have a stockpile before releasing").

Other than that, I guess I would also agree with what some people mentioned that a lot of "traditional" two-cour shows seem to be organized in one-cour chunks anyway, with a big climax/cliffhanger right near the end of each cour. So in that sense, a split cour may actually not make that big of a difference to the story if the writers were thinking of the story in "one-cour chunks" to begin with. Of course, that's not always the case, but I've noticed it fairly frequently. (Though I've noticed this most often with shows that air in the Fall because they have a one-week break over the New Years holidays. So ending on a cliffhanger or with a big climax is a good way to leave things before even a short break.)

In any case, whether split-cour or not, I'm usually at least happy that the story's continuation is locked in place. Although I've liked some one-cour shows, my preference is still for two-cour shows, so however they make that work is usually good for me.
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Old 2012-06-17, 21:33   Link #34
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The art of the 2-cour seems to be lost as of late. But it can be risky so I understand a need for chunks.

But perhaps people will factor it in and think of the one-cour chunk strategy that's been around for a while. I just feel that psychologically that the difference between a second season and a short hitatus into split cour somehow made a difference. Then again, it might just be that the shows written for separate seasons were done so with people considering the possibility there may be no second season.

Relentless did note a few good examples, and I actually have to wonder what would happen had I watched something like Clannad AS live.

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Originally Posted by Om Nerabdator View Post
well if lagrange just increased the fanservice it would be a hell of a show.
I forgot to reply, but yes.
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Old 2012-06-18, 09:39   Link #35
Westlo
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^ Actually 2-cour series are more prominent in the last 18 months than they have been for a long time....

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Lol, so just because other things do it worse means it's okay? Oh sure, you might have a point, but if you think Gundam Seed Destiny should be used as a standard of anything, I have no interest in engaging in such a discussion.
And you ignore me mentioning Code Geass, RahXephon and Wolf's Rain for what reason? Or are you not reading my posts even though you're whining about me not doing the same for yours? lol.

Quote:
And yes, being 2 connected cours DOESNT prevent those boring episodes from being aired, but as I said earlier it breaks the flow and reduces excitement because when the series goes on hiatus you're stuck with the image of not so great episodes, in Fate/Zero's case good but not as epic, and in Lagrange's case, it made the series forgettable.
It's 3 months, get over it. I hope you don't follow Game of Thrones or the Wheel of time Novels.

Quote:
Of course, if you spent a little more time reading than ranting on my post and realizing that we are talking about split cour specific shows you would have realized I say this, but I know, my posts are too hard to appreciate.
A couple of sentences that dares to disagree with you equates to ranting? lmao, whatever man.

Last edited by Westlo; 2012-06-18 at 10:39.
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Old 2012-06-18, 10:19   Link #36
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"Cour" is not in my vocab.; and I don't recognize (accept) the usage of the word.

I just stick to the term: "season"
I like the word 'season' better too, it's more aesthetically pleasing, but 'cour' is handy in that it only has one definition. 'Season' can leave room for ambiguity sometimes - if you claim that something is two seasons long, does that mean it's 24-26 episodes, or that there's an original series eventually followed by a sequel? - wheras cour has only one meaning. But yeah.

I don't mind the use of split cour too much, though I can see it starting to grate on my nerves eventually if it becomes more common a trend than it is right now. There's some stories that benefit from the suspense and anticipation that comes along with a long break; the long hiatus in Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon works for me because it ended on a nice cliffhanger, with Part II representing some fundamental changes from Part I, namely the fact that the deuteragonist enters the story at the end of the original. Some other series are just baffling, though - what's the point of building up the suspense with Kimi to Boku? (Unless that was done for monetary reasons or time constraints or whatever.)
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Old 2012-06-18, 11:39   Link #37
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
i've never seen one in a split cour show and the only time I've seen one for a one cour was Bakemonogatari.
The closest thing Bakemonogatari had to a recap episode was a flashback episode. Or was it a scene. Well either way there weren't any episodes devoted exclusively to prior events shown in the narrative.
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It's 3 months, get over it. I hope you don't follow Game of Thrones or the Wheel of time Novels.
There's nothing illegitimate about criticizing the pacing for an adaptation merely because the source material doesn't have enough content to interpret. Why should anything related to the original work matter when it's the adaptation people are watching? Otherwise, Haruhi 2009 wouldn't have been so bad because people would simply say to read the LN portion that covered Endless Eight. Actually, the LN portion would be forgiven but its anime counterpart would not be excused.
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Old 2012-06-18, 12:26   Link #38
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
^ Actually 2-cour series are more prominent in the last 18 months than they have been for a long time....
I think there have been less 2 cour series since the past few years.
The only ones that i can think of that are atleast 2 cours from 2011-2012 are

Ao no excorcist
Aquarion Evol
Chihayafuru
Eureka 7 AO
Fate/Zero
Gosick
Guilty crown
Hanasaku Iroha
Horizon
Imas
Hyouka
K-on
Mirai Nikki
Morita
Persona 4
Phi Brain
Steins;Gate
tiger and Bunny

and a few more that i probably forgot.

I am obviously excluding recurring shows that have 4 cours like the gundam, yu-gi-oh, pokemon and precure series and the random shounen anime adaptation that last several cours. I also not included obvious sequels and not 2 cour shows like Kore wa zombie desu ka.

Compare that to 2007

Bamboo blade
Bokurano
Clannad
Da capo 2
Darker than black
Denno Coil
Dragonaut
El Cazador de la Bruja
Engage Planet Kiss Dum
Ghost hound
Ghost Slayers Ayashi
Gurren Lagann
Hayate no gotoku
Heroic Age
Inukami
Kaze no Stigma
Kaji
Kimi Kiss
Less miserables
Lucky star
Moribito
Nanoha Strikers
Neuro
Princess ressurection
rental magica
Romeo and Julliet
Shana
Shuffle
Sky girls
Suteki Tantei Labyrinth
Tsubasa chronicles
Xenoglossia

And probably some others that i forgot.
The list from 2007 alone is bigger than 2011 and 2012 (the last 18 months) combined.


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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
It's 3 months, get over it. I hope you don't follow Game of Thrones or the Wheel of time Novels.
Some 2 cours shows had a longer gap than 3 months, like Clannad or the more recent Horizon anime

Last edited by hyl; 2012-06-18 at 12:38. Reason: added some more shows
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Old 2012-06-18, 13:12   Link #39
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I think there have been less 2 cour series since the past few years.
I think that was the point of the original statement; it's in comparison to even more recent times. 2007 was still on the tail end of the anime boom, and that's what people mean when they say that there are less two-cour shows these days. It's only now that it seems to be starting to rebound.

(And incidentally, from your list, Da Capo II was split-cour.)
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Old 2012-06-18, 13:19   Link #40
totoum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
I think there have been less 2 cour series since the past few years.
The only ones that i can think of that are atleast 2 cours from 2011-2012 are

Ao no excorcist
Aquarion Evol
Chihayafuru
Eureka 7 AO
Fate/Zero
Gosick
Guilty crown
Hanasaku Iroha
Horizon
Imas
Hyouka
K-on
Mirai Nikki
Morita
Persona 4
Phi Brain
Steins;Gate
tiger and Bunny

and a few more that i probably forgot.
Well you included Fate/Zero so I'm going to mention some split 2 cour shows as well as some others you didn't mention

Space brothers
Moretsu pirates
Bakuman
Rinne no Lagrange
Jormungand
Kimi to Boku
Aera no Kishi
Ginga e kickoff
Mawaru Penguindrum
Sengoku collection
Kaiji 2
Nichinjou
Accel World
Sword art online
Last Exile sequel

But as relentlessflame mentionned the "long time" probably refers to around 2007
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