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View Poll Results: Hyouka - Episode 10 Rating
Perfect 10 21 30.88%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 23 33.82%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 16 23.53%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 7.35%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 2.94%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 1.47%
Voters: 68. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-06-25, 13:29   Link #41
Flower
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Originally Posted by blakstealth View Post
Why all this Irisu hate? She's adorable. x3

And the gosh darn rope! And to think that Oreki was beginning to believe in his own abilities.
Adorable is one thing ... I think that the "hate" is moreso from the feeling that some may have felt that her words of praise were ultimately motivated by her desire to achieve a specific end as a primary motive, even if Oreki took them in a good way that may (?) have helped stimulate some personal growth. In other words - some believe that she was manipulating him.

One can believe that this was her motive or not, of course - but that is the source of the hate and distrust from some.
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Old 2012-06-25, 14:27   Link #42
Shadow5YA
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Ok ... will give ep 10 a 7.5 out of 10.

I must admit that I felt very, very leery of Irisu-senpai as well. Something about her just felt "off", somehow.
On the contrary, I like her for that reason. She's a leader that knows how to control the pieces in the play. Her character design and voice are a plus too.
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Old 2012-06-25, 14:53   Link #43
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Something that contradicts this whole thing is that supposedly the culprit or the mystery could be solved just by watching the first part of the movie.

So the average viewer would have no idea about any existence of a rope or the blood discrepancy because they would not have that behind the scenes knowledge. So is there something else that even Oreki missed?
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Old 2012-06-25, 15:00   Link #44
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Maybe we're being too hard on Oreki. Sure, he didn't solve the mystery. But he did provide a satisfying ending, or close enough to one for government work, anyway.
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Old 2012-06-25, 15:02   Link #45
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On the contrary, I like her for that reason. She's a leader that knows how to control the pieces in the play. Her character design and voice are a plus too.
I agree about the chara design and the voice. They are excellent - for that matter it is very much in keeping with the excellent quality of the series in general (at least imo). This series is definitely one of my faves (if not my fave) of the season.

I would agree that she is the type of leader that knows how to control the pieces in the play. That being said, all who have the skill to do such a thing does not mean that they all possess a similar state of mind. I happen to dislike that quality from those in a position of authority - but again, that is on the supposition that her primary motivation was seeing others in a functional manner first. For me that is the issue - I admit that she is certainly an effective leader, but....

Ah well ... perhaps this is more of an aside.
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Old 2012-06-25, 15:04   Link #46
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To be honest I do kinda feel sorry for him. He actually starts coming round to a more optimistic viewpoint and starts considering the possibilty that he could have a talent but then gets completely shot down. It really does feel like he's been cheated which I suppose is why so many are suspecting Irisu somehow did it on purpose.
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Old 2012-06-25, 15:07   Link #47
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To be honest I do kinda feel sorry for him. He actually starts coming round to a more optimistic viewpoint and starts considering the possibility that he could have a talent but then gets completely shot down.
Yes. And part of me wonders if part of the reason for his "sloppiness" might be attributable to the fact that he (at least in my opinion) was manipulated for a functional end rather than "mentored" with the benefit of his growth and maturity as the primary objective?

I guess this "sloppiness" was a contributing reason to my uneasiness with Irisu-senpai's actions....
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Old 2012-06-25, 15:30   Link #48
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Originally Posted by Calca View Post
Something that contradicts this whole thing is that supposedly the culprit or the mystery could be solved just by watching the first part of the movie.

So the average viewer would have no idea about any existence of a rope or the blood discrepancy because they would not have that behind the scenes knowledge. So is there something else that even Oreki missed?
This is why it falls on Oreki & Co. to solve the whole mystery. Oreki's solution works perfectly for a small student film. Compared to the acting and production values, it's downright clever, and there's nothing in the film itself to discredit it, so no one else will question it. The only people who will see the cracks are the ones with meta knowledge about the rope, the blood amounts, how the writer was trying to abide by certain rules that seem inconsistent with the resolution, etc.
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Old 2012-06-25, 15:34   Link #49
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Yes. And part of me wonders if part of the reason for his "sloppiness" might be attributable to the fact that he (at least in my opinion) was manipulated for a functional end rather than "mentored" with the benefit of his growth and maturity as the primary objective?

I guess this "sloppiness" was a contributing reason to my uneasiness with Irisu-senpai's actions....
Unfortunately it seems you just missed my edit.

To be honest though, I don't think Irisu manipulated him to such an extent because she did then it would've required a massive gamble. How could she be so sure that her pep talk with Oreki would lead to his sloppiness? I can't even be sure if the confidence boost did lead to his sloppiness. It could've easily been an simple mistake anyway.

The other thing is that Irisu has no motive. What did Oreki ever do to Irisu? Why would Irisu go to the trouble of getting an entire club (most of which we know wouldn't know about the deception) to create half a film just so she can screw with a complete stranger who she heard was good at mysteries? Jealous of his talent? Would anyone really go that far?

My first thought was that the rope was related to some kind of actual suicide connected to the author. After all, we don't really know why the writer is ill, and it would explain why Oreki never considered the rope (because he was thinking from the film's perspective and didn't consider the outside). It's a bit of a stretch though.
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Old 2012-06-25, 15:49   Link #50
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Hmm ... I don't think that Irisu would have manipulated Oreki that way because she bore ill will towards him, she does not have a "motive of ill will" in that sense. Her "motive" seems to be purely "functional", that is - getting an end result.

During the course of the process she may have shown sparks of surprise and amazement at Oreki's ability and insight, and perhaps even respect. In this respect there is no intent to "screw over an entire club".

From the outset she heard of Oreki's abilities (from Chitanda and two other people) and set up an arrangement and sequence to draw his abilities out in as quick and effective a manner as possible. And that process involved seeing that one of the elements that kept Oreki's abilities from shining was his feeling of purposelessness and meaninglessness that characterizes his life (and to certain degrees many the life of many people his age). So she cast out a fishing lure, so to speak, and saw Oreki respond to it with animation (no pun intended), and so continued facilitating his inspiration until he "sparked awake" so to speak with self-motivation.

To me she may have even felt sorry for what she was doing (at least that is how I read it), but she continued to do so because she was responsible for achieving a result: that is the movie.

****

Admittedly I have gone through a process of manipulation like this personally, so I would not doubt at all if I were reading my own bad taste of my several years of experiencing something that into Irisu and Oreki's interaction. And it is possible I may be correct in this instance.

But it is equally possible I could be wrong, of course. We don't have a lot of information on the sequence of events "inside Irisu's head" - whether her thinking aloud or speaking to others of what happened while it was happening or after. Much of the negative presuppositions about Irisu being a super skilled manipulator comes from Satoshi's account of Irisu....

****

BTW ... please tell me that the word choice of the rope and the possible author suicide being "a bit of a stretch" was not a bad pun done on purpose....
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Old 2012-06-25, 15:55   Link #51
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BTW ... please tell me that the word choice of the rope and the possible author suicide being "a bit of a stretch" was not a bad pun done on purpose....
Lol. I didn't even see that. XD

Well if she was just doing it to find the most effective ending to the story that convinced even her then I guess that would make sense. But then that means that if her feeding Oreki's ego lead to his sloppiness then Oreki getting brutally shot down would've been an unintended (and completely unforeseeable) consequence that you can't really fault her for. Unless she knew Oreki's idea was wrong which couldn't have been the case because if she was satisfied with that then she would've been satisfied with the other three theories. But if she really didn't think there was anything wrong with Oreki's theory then how come? The story seems to be telling us that the rope was a very obvious omission from Oreki's theory which Irisu should've noticed too.
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Old 2012-06-25, 16:04   Link #52
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Ahh ... I can see what you mean, but I am not faulting her for Oreki's sloppiness per se.

I am faulting her for utilizing Oreki in a way that to me seemed to be functional first, that is, seeing him as a tool to achieve her own ends.

And the sloppiness of thought that is uncharacteristic of Oreki I see as a possible manifestation of putting the accomplishment of her own goals as her primary goal as opposed to Oreki's emotional and growth and maturity.

But I have a feeling I am kinda in mode on this point. It is more my opinion which is not really "provable". Perhaps the remaining eps will shed light on this a little....
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Old 2012-06-25, 16:08   Link #53
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I didn't find this ep as satisfying as the previous few, but it was saved by the bit at the end. For the film's solution to show students, it's fine. But not for solving the true mystery. This got a bit formulaic, though: Oreki has once again found a solution which seems on the face of it to be passable to many, but other people (Mayaka, maybe Chitanda) have realised it's not right.

Irisu got on my nerves a bit by praising Oreki so much and manipulating him. If I were him I'd have refused to co-operate after she pulled such a stunt and got the club involved with the sole purpose of getting him in there. But, it did get her good results, just as planned. Can't fault her preparation. OTOH I'm sure that Irisu could have come up with a solution herself which would be as good as Oreki's, so I do question what she's aiming at here. Was she really satisfied that what he decided on was what Hongou intended? There was room in her portrayal for her to be thinking otherwise. (I'm curious! I'm really curious about this!)

The way Oreki considers whether he's special or not is interesting. It seems as if they drew a parallel between Satoshi and the person on the bench in Irisu's story. Hidden jealousy or frustration over Oreki being better than him but too lazy to use it? Who knows. I do agree with Oreki that Satoshi has better skills than he gives himself credit for.

Mayaka was very cute this ep. I like that she picked up on the problem with the rope. Looks like Satoshi was right about her being good at these things.

I think it would be most interesting if the theory is correct that Chitanda didn't say what she wanted to because she realised it would invalidate Oreki's shiny solution to the murder mystery.

One big question now is whether the missing rope thing is relevant to the mystery in the video, or to the mystery of why Hongou's opinion couldn't be asked. Haak's theory above that it could be a suicide method for the author is interesting. If it is something like that, I don't think that it would have been possible for the characters in the Classics Club not to know of it, unless the suicide was not successful and she was only injured. But if she was just injured or something like that, it would explain why her best friend was so withdrawn.

It would all make sense if what Hongou really intended was for there to be another solution (involving the rope, probably) which the sloppiness of the other film staff meant was impossible. The extra blood, the hand, the lack of the rope. She probably didn't intend that. She could even have intended the seventh person to be there, even as the cameraperson, but her intent might have been for the crime to get pinned on him but actually committed by someone else. So Oreki's theory could be true up to a point but not the full solution. And the reason why they didn't ask her for her solution could be that she wouldn't give it, because that solution could no longer work with the footage, hence the need to get someone to make an answer which might fit.
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Old 2012-06-25, 16:18   Link #54
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I just realised that the situation surrounding the seventh character might parralel well with the writer. We were told that the writer didn't actually get to decide on anything about the film, and judging by the glasses guy, it's possible she never got a lot of respect and might have been ignored a lot herself, just like the seventh character. Her leaving it half done was an elaborate way to get back at them. (though if true, it seems the message completely flew over their heads...)
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Old 2012-06-25, 16:27   Link #55
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I just realised that the situation surrounding the seventh character might parralel well with the writer. We were told that the writer didn't actually get to decide on anything about the film, and judging by the glasses guy, it's possible she never got a lot of respect and might have been ignored a lot herself, just like the seventh character. Her leaving it half done was an elaborate way to get back at them. (though if true, it seems the message completely flew over their heads...)
Now that would be a fun solution!

She was pushed around by various people's intentions for the project, and never wanted to write a mystery in the first place. But she still had to write the story. And maybe the way the others made their own additions to her plot had something to do with why she didn't finish it, too.
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Old 2012-06-25, 16:31   Link #56
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I'm feeling sorry for Oreki. Finaly, he revives some good words and solves the mystery. Though, not perfect. I'm realy not into defective stuff but this anime is enjoyable to watch.
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Old 2012-06-25, 17:16   Link #57
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Yukana was terrific. We can argue about Irisu, I suppose, but the way Yukana did her voice was an eleven out of ten for me. A bit artificial, but so self-confident, and with such smooth grace and power.

Irisu is highly dangerous, but dangerous in a good cause. That is what the couple of women I have known who were like her have been, too. I liked and admired them both -- all the time trying to keep out of their way, lol. But when they caught me and got me to do stuff, I had to admit they were using me better than I would use myself.

I loved the way Oreki's mind was seen to be changing. I loved the conversation on the street between him and Satoshi, and what we learned about both of them. Eru stopping herself from telling Oreki something in public was so interesting. And it was great to realize that just as his fame expands, Oreki discovers he was likely wrong. Mayaka continues to be done so brilliantly well by Kayano Ai.
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Old 2012-06-25, 18:24   Link #58
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I don't think that Irisu gave Oreki the pep talk in order to make him sloppy. I think she gave him the pep talk to motivate him to come up with a narrative conclusion that was not only "fitting with the facts", but also colorful and imaginative. Basically, she was hoping to get a good plot twist out of Oreki.

By appealing to Oreki's "specialness", her hope was probably that Oreki would feel compelled to come up with a narrative resolution that was also "special". Basically, by appealing to Oreki's pride and self-esteem she was hoping that she'd motivate him to go for a "grand solution" that would be entertaining.

In that vein, she succeeded, and so did Oreki.


Irisu in general is a character that I find very intriguing, and with good depth to her. Like many of the other characters in this show, it's easy to see which character archetype applies to Irisu (the kuudere), but she also rises above that archetype to be something a little bit more nuanced and special in her own right.

I've also meant people in real life like Irisu. They're smooth, surefooted, and very good at managing people. They're not exactly charismatic, but they do have a way of disarming or motivating you with a few key choice words. They could never be the star of the story, but they could be a good storyteller. This is why they tend to make excellent leaders (particularly "behind the scenes" leaders) who are good at quickly motivating people, and achieving solid results.

Is this manipulative? Well, at least in a broad sense of the term, it probably is, yes. I don't know if I'd want to be friends with an Irisu, but I greatly respect her abilities, and I'd love to have her as a person working for me in a mid-managerial position if I was higher up the chain (I'd hate to be below her ).

So I think that Irisu has added an awful lot to this show. It's good to see a different way of motivating Oreki rather than Eru's much more straightforward and flashy way. The dynamics between Oreki and Irisu in this episode were great.


This episode also gave me a deeper appreciation for both Satoshi and Mayaka. I like how the curtain is slowly being pulled back on Satoshi's character, how there's something to him that he's carefully hiding, and this comes out more and more in each one-on-one conversation he has with Oreki.

As for Mayaka, I'm starting to get a better sense of why she's in this cast. She's a good anchor point. She keeps things "real" so to speak. She's good at keeping details straight, and keeping the plot "on focus". Oreki's apathy, Eru's whimsical nature, and Satoshi's colorful characterization, all combine to create a need for a grounding point to kind of cajole everything together and keep things moving along in an effective, purposeful way. And that's what the industrious Mayaka brings to the table. There's a certain general competence to her that's appealing.


All-told, I thought Episode 10 was excellent, moreso for the character studies it provided than anything else, imo. 9/10.
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Old 2012-06-25, 20:22   Link #59
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Has anyone actually considered that the movie's integrity is questionable. The script itself is the only one that was handled by Houngou and not the film IIRC.
To add to that there was nothing written about a severed arm in the script. It only said that he was badly injured.
Could it be possible that the movie's true intention has already been derailed right from the start?
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Old 2012-06-25, 20:26   Link #60
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I have to ask this now: Where did you guys read the script lol?
scene + episode please
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