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Old 2013-01-05, 05:41   Link #441
Cyprene
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It's funny you should say that, because I would say "Maou" is probably the most ambiguous term a translator in this field is likely to encounter, and everybody handles it differently. This comes from the fact that it's not a word that actually means anything beyond "Demon Boss guy who probably lives in a castle and has spooky horns, who probably has a lot of hit points." (Outside its use as a Buddhist theological term, which is a bit off topic.)

Just to list a few examples offhand:
  • Atlus's Shin Megami Tensei series translates the word as "Tyrant."
  • The original Dragon Warrior translators used the term Dragonlord.
  • Later ones used the term "Demon King".
  • Funimation's Sengoku Basara translator used the phrase "Devil King".
  • In some cases it can be simply translated "Satan".
  • The official subtitle of the anime we're discussing is "Archenemy".
  • Atlus's translators for Makai Kingdom - Chronicles of the Sacred Tome simply translated it as "Lord".

So it's one of those things where really, it's not worth getting upset about it. There are probably a half dozen other ways to handle it that I can't think of at the moment.

So really, it's one of those things where you can't really go wrong whatever you pick. In my experience "Demon King" is the most common, and so that's what we went with.
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Old 2013-01-05, 05:50   Link #442
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyprene View Post
It's funny you should say that, because I would say "Maou" is probably the most ambiguous term a translator in this field is likely to encounter, and everybody handles it differently.
Well if they're using '魔王', then '魔' can be 'demon/devil' or even 'magic', but '王' by itself I've never seen it to be anything other than 'King'.

Calling them "Satan" or "Tyrant" seem to be flavor text though but whatever.
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Old 2013-01-05, 06:07   Link #443
Cyprene
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Well if they're using '魔王', then '魔' can be 'demon/devil' or even 'magic',

Aah, yup. That's another one I just remembered. The HJ Bunko Light novel "魔王の学校に俺だけ勇者!" (I'm the only hero at a school for Demon Kings) uses the term "Magic Kings". It even has a character whose attack summons a Demon King, which is called "Magic Kings the Gathering", a thinly veiled rip-off of the card game "Magic the Gathering".

Granted, that it's a horribly minor property (I wouldn't be surprised if less than 10 to 15 people on the entire North American continent have ever read it.) but its another example of just how ambiguous the word is.

Interestingly enough, it has multiple female "Magic Kings", (An entire classful, in fact. It's a Z-grade Harem Comedy, as you could probably tell from the title.) and nobody in it seems to care.

I guess my point is that given that the word has so many divergent meanings, calling her "Demon Queen" is perfectly fine, if that's how you want to go about it. It's not the decision I would make, and if I were checking a show where the translator did it I would probably have them change it. But people seem to like it, for whatever reason. So let 'em have it. The official's the way you like it, and it's going to stay that way, especially now that episode 1 has aired.

That said, I can almost guarantee you I won't be translating Onna Kishi as "Paladin".
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Old 2013-01-05, 06:10   Link #444
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
Can someone explain what was up with her changing clothes, hair-colors, and personalities each time the camera panned away from her?
It's three different magicians. Only one of them was part of the hero's party.

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Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
An impression I'm getting is that Maou would like there to be another option: some way to solve the problems she stated without having to constantly be at war, and she's hoping the hero can actually help her find one. I don't think she's really saying that the war is good so much as she's just pointing out that the consequences of ending it would be worse than letting it continue, unless they can work out some other solution for the issues that the war is currently providing the solution for.
Of course there is, or what would be the point? She's just saying that it's going to be more complicated and harder than merely losing or winning the war. And that, even with her solutions, people are going to die. Lots of them.
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Old 2013-01-05, 06:42   Link #445
Graveyard Duck
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Well if they're using '魔王', then '魔' can be 'demon/devil' or even 'magic', but '王' by itself I've never seen it to be anything other than 'King'.
The correct translation of a word is not necessarily the correct translation of its component parts. Take the word '飛行機.' You can disassemble it into component parts '飛行' (flight) and '機' (machine). Its component wise translation would then be "flight machine." In fact, it's translated as "airplane."

I can only recall one example where '魔王' referred to a class of titles rather than a specific person in the story. It is Disgaea, where Atlus translated the term as Overlord, where the term encompasses both male and female. Personally, I'd have preferred a term that is gender neutral or has no feminine form in use ("overlord" would be an example of the latter), but as the translator has chosen to use Demon King, it is still preferred to Demon Queen for in story justifications.
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Old 2013-01-05, 06:51   Link #446
Gundamx
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Disgaea use "OverLord" for Mao.
e.g.: Laharl(male) and Pram(Female).
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Old 2013-01-05, 07:26   Link #447
SinsI
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I see no problem if the translators leave the title as "Maou" - after all, you don't translate "Tsar" as "Emperor" or " Kniaz'" as a "Prince", and it really has no complete equivalent in human ranks of nobility or military...

As for the story - I really hope they do find something to fill all that big empty space that exists instead of the explanation of how Maou came up with all the necessary information for her civilization-building plans; its not like they have mass economic research facilities and programs out there in the fantasy lands! Hindsight is 200/200...
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Old 2013-01-05, 07:38   Link #448
Kamui04
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Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
I see no problem if the translators leave the title as "Maou" - after all, you don't translate "Tsar" as "Emperor" or " Kniaz'" as a "Prince", and it really has no complete equivalent in human ranks of nobility or military...

As for the story - I really hope they do find something to fill all that big empty space that exists instead of the explanation of how Maou came up with all the necessary information for her civilization-building plans; its not like they have mass economic research facilities and programs out there in the fantasy lands! Hindsight is 200/200...
All in due time. Really! in the last few pages some comments really suggest that the anime should serve the whole plot chewed for you and served in a silver plate in the first episode. Again this is the first episode and serves as an introduction, if they started delving and explaining everything behind we wouldn't even be past square one.
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Old 2013-01-05, 07:46   Link #449
paraalso
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Based on the first episode I wish it was a bit more serious and with less focus on fanservice. I'm still very interested in the show, though. I'm just a little disappointed because I was really looking forward to this show based on the premise and word of mouth.
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Old 2013-01-05, 08:19   Link #450
xizro345
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I didn't expect to see the adaptation to be so polarizing on comments. I haven't checked the Japanese reactions, but it would be interesting to see them.
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Old 2013-01-05, 08:19   Link #451
Amoiro Nguyen
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The first episode was kind of slow paced, but that's normal. This series looks promising, I'm going to follow it.
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Old 2013-01-05, 08:43   Link #452
felix
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Originally Posted by Gundamx View Post
Disgaea use "OverLord" for Mao.
e.g.: Laharl(male) and Pram(Female).
I agree with Overlord being probably the best wording; especially considering some of the later story.
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Old 2013-01-05, 08:48   Link #453
zero7090
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on the side note 魔王 in vietnamese old language (somewhat similar to chinese and japanese) means "ma vương" or "lord of devil"

- "ma" (魔): "ghost" "undead" or "devil"
- "vương"(王): "lord" while doesnt explicitly imply female or male

Last edited by zero7090; 2013-01-05 at 11:02.
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Old 2013-01-05, 09:09   Link #454
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by felix View Post
I agree with Overlord being probably the best wording; especially considering some of the later story.
That still doesn't change the fact that the first episode had her saying she didn't have the option to change the name. The claim is that in-universe, the title is masculine. And that she couldn't change the title to a feminine version.

Making the translated term gender neutral would made no sense. Not in the contest of the script. And there are many historical examples where "King" or its many different terms were once applied to female rulers. And that the term "Queen" was only in widespread use once women were able to rule in an official and regular capacity. It is well known that the term "Queen" in both European and Chinese languages were late additions to the vocabulary.

In other words, "King" used to be gender neutral because there are only men in that job. Because "Queen" did not exist. And that's pretty much why in-story, Ruby Eyes call herself Demon King. There was no other word to use.
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Old 2013-01-05, 09:25   Link #455
eiyuu99
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魔王 = maou
女王 = joou (i think)
Wonder how they would pronounce 女魔王?


Spoiler for joke:
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Old 2013-01-05, 09:35   Link #456
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by eiyuu99 View Post
魔王 = maou
女王 = joou (i think)
Wonder how they would pronounce 女魔王?]
女王 as a term never caught on in Asia back when the monarchy was still running things. It's sort of invented specifically for the purpose of translating the English word for "Queen".

There are many terms describing women in Asian Royal Court positions. But 女王 wasn't one of them.
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Old 2013-01-05, 09:47   Link #457
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
That still doesn't change the fact that the first episode had her saying she didn't have the option to change the name. The claim is that in-universe, the title is masculine. And that she couldn't change the title to a feminine version.

Making the translated term gender neutral would made no sense. Not in the contest of the script. And there are many historical examples where "King" or its many different terms were once applied to female rulers. And that the term "Queen" was only in widespread use once women were able to rule in an official and regular capacity. It is well known that the term "Queen" in both European and Chinese languages were late additions to the vocabulary.

In other words, "King" used to be gender neutral because there are only men in that job. Because "Queen" did not exist. And that's pretty much why in-story, Ruby Eyes call herself Demon King. There was no other word to use.
That, or "Maou"'s a unisex title for a traditionally male job. Like "Chef", or "Minister". Which means that, barring extra information, people assume the bearer is male.
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Old 2013-01-05, 09:48   Link #458
Benigmatica
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Spoiler for Episode 1:
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Old 2013-01-05, 09:59   Link #459
Solace
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
That, or "Maou"'s a unisex title for a traditionally male job. Like "Chef", or "Minister". Which means that, barring extra information, people assume the bearer is male.
In English, the default is always male. I'm pretty sure that's the case for a lot of languages. However, these characters don't actually have names. It is literally Demon King and Hero, because those are the titles used in the story. For translation purposes, it's probably just a lot easier to use Maou and Yuusha.

It's kind of a silly argument to have. Either go literal or keep it as is. Complaining about gender accuracy misses the point of why they are called that and why they don't have actual names.

As an example, there is a character in Code:Breaker named Prince. She's a girl. It's a nickname/title and she has a real name, but everyone in the story calls her Prince even after they notice she's a girl. It makes no sense to change the translation to Princess just because of the reveal if none of the characters in the story actually call her that.
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Old 2013-01-05, 10:07   Link #460
s07195
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Erm yeah can't be completely sure about it, but I think we'll live...
I agree. I didn't even really pay that much attention to this case of fansubbing. I think I would have minded more if it were the manga (official), of course, but for a line of dialogue that I understand the meaning and context of, and which disappears quickly, it doesn't matter that much. Not saying that the nuances and interpretations in fansubbing isn't a valid point to discuss, though, just that it's mostly unwarranted in this case, in my opinion.

In any case, I had a mixed reaction to this episode. I may be used to the manga version of the characters, but I generally liked the art design and the look of the characters. This episode took the entire time to set up the premise for the rest of the story, which I believe it needed as this is the most important part, but hopefully there won't be pacing problems with this anime. (I highly doubt it, considering it's 1 cour unless they make a second season.) The backgrounds and music were excellent, better than I expected. Really captured the feeling of the surroundings kind of like a middle age storybook. The OP particularly stuck out as good, though spoiling around a dozen later events.

On the other hand, I thought they could have had a bit less fanservice. Maybe it's just a bit of a bias based on what I've read in this thread about the animation studio, but I felt that some of it was unneeded, such as that hug pillow scene. They may have wanted to show the fact that the Demon Queen had been waiting for Hero since he was small early on, but it felt extremely forced.

Nevertheless, the premise for the story has been set up, and the animation studio may prove itself yet. The voicing was really good (I had a few 'Hey, it's that voice!' moments though, particularly from Female Knight after coming right of Kokoro Connect Michi Random) and fit the characters. I'll be watching this to the end, in any case, as I just really like the series.
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