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Old 2013-01-11, 23:51   Link #741
Graveyard Duck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
As serfs they would be forced to work on their lords land for the rest of their life. In this situation they are given freedom of their future.
They are not given their freedom, because the Demon King does not have the right to give them that freedom. Moreover, she has no obligation to see them through whatever process they might need to gain their freedom, if such a process exists in this setting. Their current state exists solely through the personal kindness of their masters and their deceit--any other person can report them as runaway serfs until such a time that they gain their legal freedom.

As far as freedom goes, they are no better off than when they were first discovered huddled, cold, and hungry in the barn. Their main improvements are in personal living and educational conditions.

Quote:
I think we can say serfs are not exactly slaves And servants are not the same thing as serfs.
1. With regard to serfs and slaves: I don't know how widely the Japanese use '奴隷', but as 'slave' is used in English, the main difference between a slave and a serf is that a slave is personal property/goods/chattel, while a serf is real property/land.

2. With regard to servants and slaves: They are different, but different does not imply mutually exclusive. A servant in general is simply a person who serves one or more others with the benefit of the service directly for the person. A slave can very well be a servant and vice versa.
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Old 2013-01-12, 00:13   Link #742
Kirarakim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post
They are not given their freedom, because the Demon King does not have the right to give them that freedom. Moreover, she has no obligation to see them through whatever process they might need to gain their freedom, if such a process exists in this setting. Their current state exists solely through the personal kindness of their masters and their deceit--any other person can report them as runaway serfs until such a time that they gain their legal freedom.

As far as freedom goes, they are no better off than when they were first discovered huddled, cold, and hungry in the barn. Their main improvements are in personal living and educational conditions.
I think you are missing the point. By employing them and not turning them in the Demon Queen is ignoring the rules of serfdom.

They do have freedom of the future because what they do with the skills and knowledge the demon queen gives them is up to them. It's their choice. Their position as serfs does not come into play because clearly the Demon Queen is ignoring it.

Could someone else turn them in, yes but let's see what happens if the story goes there. They could also earn enough to legally buy their freedom for all we know.

Quote:
With regard to serfs and slaves: I don't know how widely the Japanese use '奴隷', but as 'slave' is used in English, the main difference between a slave and a serf is that a slave is personal property/goods/chattel, while a serf is real property/land.
There were varying levels of serfdom. Not all serfs were necessarily equivalent to slaves in this regard (but I think the girls were).

Quote:
2. With regard to servants and slaves: They are different, but different does not imply mutually exclusive. A servant in general is simply a person who serves one or more others with the benefit of the service directly for the person. A slave can very well be a servant and vice versa.
No the difference is a servant is hired for their services a slave obviously is not.
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Old 2013-01-12, 00:29   Link #743
GuidoHunter_Toki
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Liked this second episode more than the first. I found the pace to be better and the strong chemistry between the two leads really carried the episode well. I liked all the educative talk mixed with some well done humor in this episode. It had a consistent feel throughout and seemed more "focused", I guess, than the first.

One interesting thing I like in the shows art style (which at first I thought it was gona bug me) is that many of the backgrounds look like paintings. It grew on my me quickly and now I find myself loving the look of it. I thought it would be distracting seeing a somewhat clash in style between the character art and the backgrounds, but heck it makes a nice contrast that doesn't standout all that much once you get enthralled enough in watching the show.
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Old 2013-01-12, 00:44   Link #744
zero7090
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2 people flirting, slow story pace telling the preparation/establishing base phase.

nicely done.

now 7 days more for flat chested nun
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Old 2013-01-12, 00:48   Link #745
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Well, at least it's getting somewhere albeit slowly. At least they're developing the relationship between the main characters.
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Old 2013-01-12, 01:10   Link #746
Graveyard Duck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I think you are missing the point. By employing them and not turning them in the Demon Queen is ignoring the rules of serfdom.

They do have freedom of the future because what they do with the skills and knowledge the demon queen gives them is up to them. It's their choice. Their position as serfs does not come into play because clearly the Demon Queen is ignoring it.

Could someone else turn them in, yes but let's see what happens if the story goes there. They could also earn enough to legally buy their freedom for all we know.
You are missing the point. What they have now--education, shelter, clothing, sustenance, respect, friendship, etc--come entirely from 1. the good will of the Demon King and her group and 2. their not being discovered by their rightful lord. All of these elements can, theoretically, also come from their lord. This is one of the pivotal difference between a fugitive serf and a freeman: A freeman can earn them because it is her right to do so. A serf has them only by the good grace of some protector who flaunts the custom and/or law.

Quote:
There were varying levels of serfdom. Not all serfs were necessarily equivalent to slaves in this regard (but I think the girls were).
There are varying levels of slavery--the rights and statuses of a Roman servus publicus, an Islamic abd, and an American Antibellum slave are quite different. The common trait is that they are treated as personal property--free to be bought or sold with no reference to the slave. The analogous is true of serfs: Different levels of serfs had different rights to personal property and freedom, but they are considered part of the land. If a serf's lord sells the land to which the serf is bound, the serf goes with the land to a new lord.

Quote:
No the difference is a servant is hired for their services a slave obviously is not.
A servant is not hired for his services; that is merely one method by which one can become a servant. First, it is the legal right of a free person to serve another personally with no compensation or contract. Second, slaves are often used as servants.
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Old 2013-01-12, 01:34   Link #747
Random Wanderer
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Hmm. I liked this. Crop rotation, Maou's incredibly cute increasingly flustered attempt to explain that she wants to offer her lap as a pillow, the arrival and hiring of the sisters, Maou's classroom discipline with the idiot who wouldn't stay in his seat... This was good stuff all the way through.

Episode worked for me.
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Old 2013-01-12, 01:49   Link #748
Hakuromatsu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Their position as serfs does not come into play because clearly the Demon Queen is ignoring it.
I wish I could respond to you in-depth, but this is a sticking point for me. There's a chance I'm reading way too deep into the story and later episodes may invalidate my thoughts.

If the "status" of these girls does comes back into play in later episodes (which it may well not), I'll have plenty more to say.
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Old 2013-01-12, 02:21   Link #749
s07195
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Spoiler for Episode 2:
Pretty sure I agree with most the points in this post. I found this episode better than the first, because I thought it was a good representation of the Hero and Demon Queen's relationship and was well paced. However, there wasn't anything that stood out about the episode either. This is just the set-up though, so I'm not too worried yet.

Also starting from next episode...
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Spoiler for quote:
Spoiler for spoiler:
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Old 2013-01-12, 04:22   Link #750
Yume Hanabi
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This show makes me want a third season of Spice&Wolf SO MUCH ;_;
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Old 2013-01-12, 05:44   Link #751
U<3Anime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
As a fan of the story (the manga in particular), unfortunately I found this 2nd episode lacking.

What’s lacking is the overall execution of some scenes. The scene at the barn should be the one to describe how the two sisters are in a very poor condition. They’re cold, desperate, frustrated, extremely sad and afraid. Even more so when the Head Maid confront them with strict attitude. Yet they didn’t portray it with enough intensity. Furthermore, the scene where the Big Sis is asking to be made into human should’ve shown how determined she is to be a better person for her lil sister and herself, yet I didn’t get that determination vibe. That, and coupled with lackluster animation (the characters barely move in some scenes), plain characters’ expression and so-so score made this episode disappointing for me. In short, I agree with Clarste and Kanon.

At least there's one positive thing though. The three Noble Students looks a lot better compared to the manga.

You hit all the right notes. Disappointing that the supposedly emotional scenes lacked impact and got over rather quickly.
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Old 2013-01-12, 06:43   Link #752
Kirarakim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post
You are missing the point. What they have now--education, shelter, clothing, sustenance, respect, friendship, etc--come entirely from 1. the good will of the Demon King and her group and 2. their not being discovered by their rightful lord. All of these elements can, theoretically, also come from their lord. This is one of the pivotal difference between a fugitive serf and a freeman: A freeman can earn them because it is her right to do so. A serf has them only by the good grace of some protector who flaunts the custom and/or law.
No I am not missing your point you are missing mine. You are seeing freedom only in terms of a legal issue. I am seeing freedom as something symbolic.

I don't care that they are still serfs in terms of the law of the land. I understand that. And I understand they can be turned in by someone. I am saying the demon queen, head maid, hero do not see them or treat them as serfs.

That is the important difference you are missing. You are saying they are being treated the same way (well that is debateable looking at the girls clothes). But even if their lord gave them good clothes, food education, shelter, etc for their work on his land, he would still think of them as his. For the Demon queen et all it is different, these girls are given a chance for something more.

I don't know what is going to happen later in the story and perhaps they will somehow earn their freedom in a legal way too. But for now symbolically they have earned that freedom and their future is much brighter because of this.



Quote:
There are varying levels of slavery--the rights and statuses of a Roman servus publicus, an Islamic abd, and an American Antibellum slave are quite different. The common trait is that they are treated as personal property--free to be bought or sold with no reference to the slave. The analogous is true of serfs: Different levels of serfs had different rights to personal property and freedom, but they are considered part of the land. If a serf's lord sells the land to which the serf is bound, the serf goes with the land to a new lord.
I understand serfs are part of the land. I was not questioning that. I was saying some serfs were almost equivalent to slaves....while others were basically freemen. Wikipedia gives a good run down of the different types actually (well if you want to trust Wikipedia).




Quote:
A servant is not hired for his services; that is merely one method by which one can become a servant. First, it is the legal right of a free person to serve another personally with no compensation or contract. Second, slaves are often used as servants.
I understand that a slave could do the same work as a servant or even possibly be called a "servant" but there is a difference between the terms. A slave has no rights or choice, a servant does(well that choice could be very small considering their life situation but it was still there).

I'll admit "hire" might not have been the best word choice. I am not saying they can only work for compensation.
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Old 2013-01-12, 06:53   Link #753
NoemiChan
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Episode 2

> Maids are a "must" in every house hold... hehehe
> Makes me want to plant....
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Old 2013-01-12, 06:55   Link #754
Kreceir
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Useless Meat...OR is it?
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Old 2013-01-12, 07:07   Link #755
Marcus H.
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^ I like that Useless Meat series.
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Old 2013-01-12, 08:44   Link #756
eiyuu99
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I guess maou will attempt to abolish serfdom by some means in order to increase freedom.
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Old 2013-01-12, 08:45   Link #757
DezoPenguin
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It's kind of interesting in that everything that's on the screen, I like. It's the things that are not on the screen that give me pause.

For example: the crop rotation lecture, the runaway serfs, the lap pillow flirting, Demon King's basic economics class, and the scene with Hero having killed the giant freaking monster boar (which I loved, because it's the first time in the series that we've gotten an explicit reference to how much of a genuine badass warrior Hero actually is) were all great fun.

But it's things that weren't shown that I missed. For example, when the Village Elder refuses to listen to Demon King's crop rotation scheme, we're just told about it afterwards. We don't get to see him doing it, so we don't get a real sense of why he's so hidebound. It would have given some real human flavor to the kind of problems that Demon King and Hero are facing in trying to change the world.

Similarly, with regard to Demon King's classes--we're just plunged into the class without any idea of who these people are (except for Big Sister Maid, of course) or why they're listening to her! It's only afterwards that they explain that she's started teaching classes, and it becomes more clear that the three students are supposed to represent the attitudes of the military, the nobility, and the common folk...

So it's perhaps ironic that, in a show chock full of exposition, the major lack I feel is...more exposition.
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Old 2013-01-12, 08:47   Link #758
vuluc88
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Made this at last episode... dunno anyone posted here or not... oh well

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Maoppai
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Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2013-01-13 at 18:44. Reason: Switched tags
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Old 2013-01-12, 09:01   Link #759
DezoPenguin
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Originally Posted by eiyuu99 View Post
I guess maou will attempt to abolish serfdom by some means in order to increase freedom.
Or just economic efficiency. All variations on slavery are economically inefficient (leaving aside their function as a social control mechanism) so long as you have a large labor pool to draw upon.

Basically, a hired worker has to be paid subsistence wages at the very minimum (enough to live on), or they'll find different work (again, presuming the existence of different work...). Generally, they'd need to be paid some premium over and above that, even if it's a bare minimum.

A slave needs to be provided with subsistence-level food, clothing, and shelter. This daily "wage" is generally less than a hired worker would earn, so there's a cost savings on per-day "pay."

However, the fixed costs really add up for slaves. For the one thing, slaves are wont to run away. That means that additional security measures have to be taken to prevent that: fences built, doors locked, thugs and goons hired to act as overseers, and so on. All that costs money.

Then there's the replacement issue. If a hired worker dies, a new worker can just be hired to take his/her place at the same daily wage. If a slave dies, then a new slave has to be purchased, at a large fixed investment cost. Similarly, if the business grows, so that more workers are required, they have to be purchased.

For these reasons, unless slaves are ridiculously cheap to purchase, it's very difficult to make back one's investment on keeping them. The exception tends to be if there is not a large labor pool available (one reason why slavery started up in the American South and the West Indies during colonization, actually) where individual business or land-owners need to maintain control over their labor force because they could easily go out of business otherwise. But once enough workers become available that they're essentially fungible, then slavery stops being an economically efficient model. Which may actually carry more weight with Demon King than the moral objections to slavery and serfdom, so far as engineering worldwide social change goes.
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Old 2013-01-12, 09:03   Link #760
kuroishinigami
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Hmm.... as expected, the pace is lightning fast from novel and manga reader like me, but I guess they cover all the important things in the story so it's all good I guess.
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