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Old 2013-01-12, 09:11   Link #761
Kirarakim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Which may actually carry more weight with Demon King than the moral objections to slavery and serfdom, so far as engineering worldwide social change goes.

Makes sense and she didn't seem morally opposed to it the way hero did when he saw the girls. I am sure the Demon Queen is looking at the bigger picture.

Can you get more out of hired workers than you can for serfs? I am also not sure if you need the same level of security & fixed costs for serfs as you do for slaves?
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Old 2013-01-12, 09:42   Link #762
Dop
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I do approve of the way they tuned down the boobage in this episode so as not to distract from the storyline as Maou starts to try and improve the situation of this village they're in.
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Old 2013-01-12, 09:43   Link #763
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Me too, it was a bit exaggerated in the first ep. I like her outfit in this one, too.
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Old 2013-01-12, 09:59   Link #764
kagato3
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Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post
Here is the problem: They are still serfs because their rightful lord never released them from their serfdom, nor did their current masters gain their release by some sort of adversarial contest with their rightful lord. Except now they're serfs that are serving a master who isn't obligated to give them the protection of law, military, and social security like their rightful lord.
Just because they are still leaglely serfs to some lord does't mean they are still serfs out side his lands. Think of it as esaped slaves before the US civil war. Leaglely escaped slaves in the northern states were still slaves and laws to return them to thier owners were in place but in practaice they weren't followed very strictly.

Just being able to read and write will make it harder for claims that they are serfs stick as those skills were not taught to the lower classes and made rather high income jobs available to them, Little Sis Maid wasn't kidding about being able to be rich by learning it.

Given thier lord burnt down thier home with thier sisters still inside in front of them and left them in the cold with only the clothing on thier back, I think anything is a step up for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
It's kind of interesting in that everything that's on the screen, I like. It's the things that are not on the screen that give me pause.

For example: the crop rotation lecture, the runaway serfs, the lap pillow flirting, Demon King's basic economics class, and the scene with Hero having killed the giant freaking monster boar (which I loved, because it's the first time in the series that we've gotten an explicit reference to how much of a genuine badass warrior Hero actually is) were all great fun.

But it's things that weren't shown that I missed. For example, when the Village Elder refuses to listen to Demon King's crop rotation scheme, we're just told about it afterwards. We don't get to see him doing it, so we don't get a real sense of why he's so hidebound. It would have given some real human flavor to the kind of problems that Demon King and Hero are facing in trying to change the world.

Similarly, with regard to Demon King's classes--we're just plunged into the class without any idea of who these people are (except for Big Sister Maid, of course) or why they're listening to her! It's only afterwards that they explain that she's started teaching classes, and it becomes more clear that the three students are supposed to represent the attitudes of the military, the nobility, and the common folk...

So it's perhaps ironic that, in a show chock full of exposition, the major lack I feel is...more exposition.
The third is not the common folk but the Merchent point of veiw. It would have helped if the names were shown: Noble Youth, Soilder Youth, Merchent Youth. Yes everyones name in the series is a title but it does help cut down some of the exposition.
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Last edited by kagato3; 2013-01-12 at 10:14.
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Old 2013-01-12, 10:41   Link #765
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dop View Post
I do approve of the way they tuned down the boobage in this episode.
I'm starting to think they overdid the boobage in that episode on purpose to add to the whole "demon king trying wooing the hero" bit
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Old 2013-01-12, 10:50   Link #766
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Makes sense and she didn't seem morally opposed to it the way hero did when he saw the girls. I am sure the Demon Queen is looking at the bigger picture.
I would say it's not so much that she doesn't morally oppose slavery as it is that she's pragmatic enough to realize that opposing something purely from a moral standpoint, without some other basis, is not going to get you very far realistically. It's all very well to say "free your serfs," but unless you can actually convince the lords involved that doing so provides them with a real benefit that outweighs what they feel they're losing, you're not going to gain much ground.

I'm sure she'd like to help every person in need that she could. Pragmatically, she's trying to save the world (two worlds, really), and hiding fleeing serfs risks her reputation, and thus her chances of success in this stage of her work.
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Old 2013-01-12, 11:03   Link #767
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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
So it's perhaps ironic that, in a show chock full of exposition, the major lack I feel is...more exposition.
Well with only 12 episodes (now 10 left) they've got to find a way to get the whole story in as much of the story as possible so corners will have to be cut in the form of tell don't show...or was it show don't tell? Anyway I think most of the points you listed were pretty obvious if you looked at the context of the scene.

Though it's a same they cut the useless meat joke that was one of my favorite parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
Given thier lord burnt down thier home with thier sisters still inside in front of them and left them in the cold with only the clothing on thier back, I think anything is a step up for them.
Also let us not forget that "no one in the world dislikes maids"
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Old 2013-01-12, 11:11   Link #768
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Old 2013-01-12, 13:41   Link #769
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Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post


Also let us not forget that "no one in the world dislikes maids"
no one would contradict a Maid that looks like Roberta.
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Old 2013-01-12, 15:16   Link #770
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
That is the important difference you are missing. You are saying they are being treated the same way (well that is debateable looking at the girls clothes). But even if their lord gave them good clothes, food education, shelter, etc for their work on his land, he would still think of them as his. For the Demon queen et all it is different, these girls are given a chance for something more.
You are indeed missing the point. How the Demon King, the Hero, and the Head Maid see the girls is a matter of personal preference, free to change as their moods might change. How they stand legally is a matter of objective classification. Here is the difference between a lord who treats them well and the Demon King's kindness: Their lord can give them their freedom, an act that he cannot revoke once done; the Demon King can only conceal them until such a time that they no longer need fear discovery--a much longer process that she can abandon at any time for any reason.

Quote:
I understand serfs are part of the land. I was not questioning that. I was saying some serfs were almost equivalent to slaves....while others were basically freemen. Wikipedia gives a good run down of the different types actually (well if you want to trust Wikipedia).
They were not "basically freemen." They differ from freemen in the fundamental sense that they are treated as part of the land. A freeman whose rented land is sold can pick up and move. A serf whose assigned land is sold now has a new lord, regardless of which class of serf he is.

You do not quite appreciate how widely the English term "slave" is used if you think a serf who must work for his lord in certain capacities in an assigned land, who is not free to leave the assigned land, and who can be bought and sold with the assigned land is better--legally or practically--than slave of any class.

Quote:
I understand that a slave could do the same work as a servant or even possibly be called a "servant" but there is a difference between the terms. A slave has no rights or choice, a servant does(well that choice could be very small considering their life situation but it was still there).
Your confusion appears to arise form a very narrow understanding of the term slave. Debt-slavery, where a person sells himself into bondage for financial relief, is sometimes called indentured servitude and sometimes called slavery. What is the difference between the Roman Nexum and the English indentured servant? Not much, except in the theoretical legal sense (Nexum ownership is over the person, while indentured servitude is over the contract, but practically speaker, they can be freely traded).

Quote:
Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
Just because they are still leaglely serfs to some lord does't mean they are still serfs out side his lands. Think of it as esaped slaves before the US civil war. Leaglely escaped slaves in the northern states were still slaves and laws to return them to thier owners were in place but in practaice they weren't followed very strictly.
There were two stages before the US Civil War:
1. Before the Fugitive Slave Law of 1850: During this period, there is no duty to aid the return of escaped slaves. Slavery was not allowed in the free states. A slave who escaped to a free state is a free man, both legally and practically, so long as he does not return to a slave state--voluntary or as a victim of successful kidnap. Actually, because the free state's law treats him as a free man, he has protection against kidnapping.

2. After the Fugitive Slave Law of 1850: During this period, there is a duty to aid the return of escaped slaves. A slave residing in the free states remains only at freedom so long as his protectors are willing and able to protect him. This is why escape attempts are directly more toward getting slaves to Canada and Mexico, where the escaped slave becomes a free man by law.
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Old 2013-01-12, 15:30   Link #771
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post
You are indeed missing the point. How the Demon King, the Hero, and the Head Maid see the girls is a matter of personal preference, free to change as their moods might change. How they stand legally is a matter of objective classification. Here is the difference between a lord who treats them well and the Demon King's kindness: Their lord can give them their freedom, an act that he cannot revoke once done; the Demon King can only conceal them until such a time that they no longer need fear discovery--a much longer process that she can abandon at any time for any reason.
No I am not missing your point but I am tiring of arguing with you about this because you are completely ignoring what I am saying.

On another note their lord did not "treat them well" at all hence why they ran away. Their lord was I would venture to guess not going to give them their freedom.



Quote:
They were not "basically freemen." They differ from freemen in the fundamental sense that they are treated as part of the land. A freeman whose rented land is sold can pick up and move. A serf whose assigned land is sold now has a new lord, regardless of which class of serf he is.
Um please look up the different levels of serfdom. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom...s_class_system

Quote:
You do not quite appreciate how widely the English term "slave" is used if you think a serf who must work for his lord in certain capacities in an assigned land, who is not free to leave the assigned land, and who can be bought and sold with the assigned land is better--legally or practically--than slave of any class.
This was certainly not the situation of all serfs (see above).

Quote:
Your confusion appears to arise form a very narrow understanding of the term slave. Debt-slavery, where a person sells himself into bondage for financial relief, is sometimes called indentured servitude and sometimes called slavery. What is the difference between the Roman Nexum and the English indentured servant? Not much, except in the theoretical legal sense (Nexum ownership is over the person, while indentured servitude is over the contract, but practically speaker, they can be freely traded).
I know exactly what an indentured servant is. This is still not the exact same thing as "slave". If the person was "willing" not forced into indentured servitude it's not the same thing as slavery.

If they were forced it was akin to slavery and basically kidnapping.
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Last edited by Kirarakim; 2013-01-12 at 15:44.
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Old 2013-01-12, 15:38   Link #772
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
According to MAL it is 12
Thank you, but now this answer got me scared of the future episodes.
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Old 2013-01-12, 16:01   Link #773
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
No I am not missing your point but I am tiring of arguing with you about this because you are completely ignoring what I am saying.
Yeah, tell me about it. I also felt the same way when I was arguing with him on different topic before you. He seem to really not get the simple point that I made (or intentionally ignore it).

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Thank you, but now this answer got me scared of the future episodes.
Same for me. IMO compressing all those narrative into just 12 episodes will be problematic at best. Just look at how Zetman and Code Breakers have become. I'd rather have them take the "unfinished story" approach like Spice and Wolf than rushing the plot.
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Old 2013-01-12, 16:06   Link #774
kagato3
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Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
I'm starting to think they overdid the boobage in that episode on purpose to add to the whole "demon king trying wooing the hero" bit
Something that was cut in the Anime is that the outfit the Demon Lord was wareing was not picked out by her but forced on her by Head Maid as "something befiting the meeting of the Demon Lord and Hero (It is a bit more vampish in the manga and novel), she prefers to dress more plain and modest. So while the demon king trying wooing the hero bit is there Demon Lord isn't the one tring to invoke it.
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Old 2013-01-12, 16:09   Link #775
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10 minutes into episode 1, I'm fairly impressed how this story is shaping. To be honest, I thought I was going to indulge into a fanservicy/harem series with little or no emphasis on a plot. Compared to the heroine, the hero is sounding like a frying pan. Hoping the next 10 min will allow the hero to find some redemption.

Onward with episode 1.......
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Old 2013-01-12, 16:14   Link #776
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Yeah, tell me about it. I also felt the same way when I was arguing with him on different topic before you. He seem to really not get the simple point that I made (or intentionally ignore it).

Same for me. IMO compressing all those narrative into just 12 episodes will be problematic at best. Just look at how Zetman and Code Breakers have become. I'd rather have them take the "unfinished story" approach like Spice and Wolf than rushing the plot.
I agree with you. I feel that the anime should be gradual, not force. If there isn't an ending, that is okay. I thought the point of an anime is to make money and provide exposure. If its money, then wouldn't it be better not to finish the series abrupt when the main source is not yet finished, allow excitement to build up over the cliff hanger.
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Old 2013-01-12, 16:39   Link #777
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Um please look up the different levels of serfdom. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom...s_class_system

This was certainly not the situation of all serfs (see above).
According to the Wikipedia page you linked, under the "Dependency and the lower orders":
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia on Serfdom
A lord of the manor could not sell his serfs as a Roman might sell his slaves. On the other hand, if he chose to dispose of a parcel of land, the serf or serfs associated with that land went with it to serve their new lord, benefitting him from their long-acquired knowledge of practices suited to the land. Further, a serf could not abandon his lands without permission, nor did he possess a saleable title in them.
Which is, of course, exactly what I said: A slave is treated as personal property. A serf is treated as real property.

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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I know exactly what an indentured servant is. This is still not the exact same thing as "slave". If the person was "willing" not forced into indentured servitude it's not the same thing as slavery.

If they were forced it was akin to slavery and basically kidnapping.
Then perhaps you should tell us what your concept of indentured servant.

The involuntary part of involuntary servitude (of any kind) refers to methods of getting out of the status, not necessarily of getting into the status. It is common for a person to sell himself into slavery for debt relief--or pledge himself as security for a loan. This is the classification for the Roman nexum. You see that is is essentially an indentured servant.
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Old 2013-01-12, 16:43   Link #778
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Why are we having a persistence argument of the definition of slavery?
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Old 2013-01-12, 16:51   Link #779
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Why are we having a persistence argument of the definition of slavery?
I don't know. I also don't care who's winning, but both of you, please stop it. Ever since the first episode, I come into this thread looking for discussion and I see long back-and-forth arguments, and it's a real turn-off. Please, everyone, just stop.
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Old 2013-01-12, 17:06   Link #780
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I don't know. I also don't care who's winning, but both of you, please stop it. Ever since the first episode, I come into this thread looking for discussion and I see long back-and-forth arguments, and it's a real turn-off. Please, everyone, just stop.
I agree with you. Seriously, I have taken World History, American History, Humanities 20th century, Humanities Forums, and American Government. So I've been expose to the discussion of slavery, the caste system, serfdom, and many social class systems many times over, yet in all the time I spent in those courses I never experience a persistence argument over the word slavery.

Its not even the main focus of the series and is the social class system of that fiction world. Why does it matter so much? There are many things we can discuss, please put efforts into a quality discussion.
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