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Old 2013-02-06, 01:45   Link #1261
Reckoner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Okay, the blame of the production team for the flow of the story, but I don't think they have anything to say when it comes to the characters. After all, the story is written with the premise that the characters are given so little relevance to the plot that the writer didn't even gave them names.
They're relevant enough that they continuously drive up the romance and distracting fanservice and take up a majority of the screen time.

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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Great, you have declared that you find the central issue tackled by this series as stupid. You may drop this series now.

There's no point in watching an anime series if you're not actively looking for ways to enjoy it. It's a bit masochistic.
You need not worry about how I choose to spend my own time.

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Originally Posted by Dark Faith View Post
But who decided that demons in every setting must be evil ?
I think part of this series charm (even if I find myself not enjoying the show as a whole THAT much for other reasons) is showing that despite their differences, humans and demons aren't all that different. They're driven by the same goals and face the same issues as their human counterparts.

So why are they at war? Why can't they co-exist ?
I don't know, centuries of human lore and literature have characterized demons in a certain way. What's next, we are going to show that Lucifer is actually a moe girl and is just misunderstood? It's fine, that's creative license. However, things in the creative process need to be justified. "Just because" is not a good reason to change something so integral to the history of human interpretation of what a "demon" is. Especially when they want to just settle for the "demons are people too!" theme. I think it just brings down the setting to do this.

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Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
Reckoner: Again it's one of those things glossed on in the anime -- there are many different tribes of "demons" (humanity lumps all of them together apparently, INCLUDING fairies), and where there are those who are belligerent, there are also tribes who want to be left alone (the Maou's and Head Maid's tribe of origin).

Even not being familiar with the source material, you can see what we're getting at here: the production is doesn't seem to be executing properly what more than a few of us found so interesting about the world of Maouyuu. (See the part where they cut out a part of the story NONE of the manga adaptations -- and there are a lot of them -- skipped, even the comedy 4koma!)
That's fine. I never directed my criticisms at the source material, but at the anime. I understand full well what a poor adaption can do to something you like a lot, and the only reason I even bothered to speak out here is because I feel a lot of potential in this story is being squandered. Maybe I'll check out the source some day, but at least what I'm seeing from the anime to me is a bit disappointing.
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Old 2013-02-06, 02:04   Link #1262
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Why does she want that? She's a demon, not a human. Why in the world would she wish for that? This is why I questioned introducing demons as part of this world. It seems that in this world that the demons only act like demons when it suits the story. Otherwise they seem to be going for a "demons are humans too!" approach, which is completely stupid. What the hell was the point of making them demons if they don't act like demons. Any sort of compromise between humans and demons would then be like between humans.
They're always like humans. It's just that humans can be assholes. (And they're a bit more culturally diverse than the humans of that setting.)

And no, it's not a standard good vs evil where humans are right to, pardon the pun, demonize their opponents. You'd think the first episode would be enough to figure that out.
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Old 2013-02-06, 02:34   Link #1263
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
They're always like humans. It's just that humans can be assholes. (And they're a bit more culturally diverse than the humans of that setting.)
Justifying the anime with material not properly addressed in the anime is not an answer to me. Fine, the source material explains things better (Maybe), but I can only go off what I been seeing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And no, it's not a standard good vs evil where humans are right to, pardon the pun, demonize their opponents. You'd think the first episode would be enough to figure that out.
I never implied as such.
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Old 2013-02-06, 02:39   Link #1264
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Justifying the anime with material not properly addressed in the anime is not an answer to me. Fine, the source material explains things better (Maybe), but I can only go off what I been seeing.
What material? The demon queen was pretty clear that the difference between demons and humans wasn't huge right at the start. And what instance of demons acting "like demons because it's convenient" did you see that couldn't be done by some humans?
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Old 2013-02-06, 02:50   Link #1265
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
What material? The demon queen was pretty clear that the difference between demons and humans wasn't huge right at the start. And what instance of demons acting "like demons because it's convenient" did you see that couldn't be done by some humans?
So let me get this straight.

The Demon queen possesses all this knowledge on how to build a better economy that would bring prosperity to all of her kin, but decides she doesn't want to share it with her kin because she for some reason grew attached to humans (????). And that the demons are hampered by internal strife, but only just enough, so that they are neither losing or winning the war against the humans.

The first episode, at least to me, was the Demon Queen pitching a sort of compromise between their two people since in her eyes the end of the war would bring devastation to either side regardless if they won. YET, if she has all this knowledge, there is no need for compromise. So she forms a relation with the hero to seek a solution to the problem on both sides, while hoping to bridge the gap between humans and demons. Except the demons are basically just like humans, so the gap is actually pretty artificial. There is no bridging of two sides from opposite spectrum here in reality. This working together storyline has no meat, it has nothing.

--> What I mean by demons acting like demons when it is convenient is that the basic setup of the story is predicated on the notion of two opposing sides coming from different spectrum and there needs to be a sort of compromise between them. Demons are setup as this opposing side because well of course demons and humans can't get along! But if they are in reality not any different, then this whole storyline just falls apart. That's why I think this setting is flawed.
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Old 2013-02-06, 02:51   Link #1266
Marcus H.
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This talk about humans and demons reminds me of how the British sung about the Native American Indians as "savages" in the Disney film Pocahontas. The problem is, these "savages" turn out to be more human than the true demons who pillage the land and defile the women of the New World.

Quote:
The first episode, at least to me, was the Demon Queen pitching a sort of compromise between their two people since in her eyes the end of the war would bring devastation to either side regardless if they won. YET, if she has all this knowledge, there is no need for compromise. So she forms a relation with the hero to seek a solution to the problem on both sides, while hoping to bridge the gap between humans and demons. Except the demons are basically just like humans, so the gap is actually pretty artificial. There is no bridging of two sides from opposite spectrum here in reality. This working together storyline has no meat, it has nothing.
I assume that even with all of the knowledge of the world, she feels that knowledge alone isn't enough. Humans are interested in money and wealth among other things while demons are already on the verge of destroying itself. There is still a gap, however, and this is the treatment of the humans and the demons towards each other; humans treat demons like... well, demons, while demons see humans as inferior races that are there to be slaves and food. [And this gap is yet to be addressed by Maou.]

Also, I have yet to see humans who can control giant squids to attack entire navies. It would be very useful in conquest.
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Old 2013-02-06, 02:58   Link #1267
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
So let me get this straight.

The Demon queen possesses all this knowledge on how to build a better economy that would bring prosperity to all of her kin, but decides she doesn't want to share it with her kin because she for some reason grew attached to humans (????).
And because the demons will go back to fighting each other the moment they win.

Quote:
And that the demons are hampered by internal strife, but only just enough, so that they are neither losing or winning the war against the humans.
It's not just internal strife. It's not like they could just crush the humans even if they were completely united and disciplined.

Quote:
The first episode, at least to me, was the Demon Queen pitching a sort of compromise between their two people since in her eyes the end of the war would bring devastation to either side regardless if they won. YET, if she has all this knowledge, there is no need for compromise. So she forms a relation with the hero to seek a solution to the problem on both sides, while hoping to bridge the gap between humans and demons. Except the demons are basically just like humans, so the gap is actually pretty artificial. There is no bridging of two sides from opposite spectrum here in reality. This working together storyline has no meat, it has nothing.
Just because they're alike doesn't mean they don't want to kill each other. Or what, you think all our (strictly between humans) wars didn't happen? You think <insert two sides of any war you want> aren't the same species?
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Old 2013-02-06, 03:04   Link #1268
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And because the demons will go back to fighting each other the moment they win.


It's not just internal strife. It's not like they could just crush the humans even if they were completely united and disciplined.


Just because they're alike doesn't mean they don't want to kill each other. Or what, you think all our (strictly between humans) wars didn't happen? You think <insert two sides of any war you want> aren't the same species?
My entire point was why in the world are they calling them demons? It is a completely pointless plot point. The same story could have been told between two warring nations of humans.

If in reality there is no "gap" to bridge, then why pitch the story as such? It falls completely flat on its face.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
I assume that even with all of the knowledge of the world, she feels that knowledge alone isn't enough. Humans are interested in money and wealth among other things while demons are already on the verge of destroying itself. There is still a gap, however, and this is the treatment of the humans and the demons towards each other; humans treat demons like... well, demons, while demons see humans as inferior races that are there to be slaves and food. [And this gap is yet to be addressed by Maou.]

Also, I have yet to see humans who can control giant squids to attack entire navies. It would be very useful in conquest.
This is what I am talking about how demons act like demons only when it is convenient for the story when it reality there is basically no difference. I question why they used demons as a plot point at all and why they pitched this as a story where two sides from such different spectrum have to compromise.
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Old 2013-02-06, 03:09   Link #1269
Marcus H.
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This is what I am talking about how demons act like demons only when it is convenient for the story when it reality there is basically no difference. I question why they used demons as a plot point at all and why they pitched this as a story where two sides from such different spectrum have to compromise.
I think the fact that Maoyuu is referencing the Dragon Quest series contributes to how demons became the "other side" of Maoyuu.
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Old 2013-02-06, 04:55   Link #1270
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This makes two pages explaining Episode 1 to Reckoner.
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Old 2013-02-06, 05:42   Link #1271
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
My entire point was why in the world are they calling them demons? It is a completely pointless plot point.
That's rather like asking why they bothered to put rubber forehead on people in Star Trek.

They're demons as a wink to Dragon Quest and other RPGs, because they're foreign (alien, even), and because the obvious, if ultimately superficial differences make the sudden unification against a common foe more believable.

Quote:
The same story could have been told between two warring nations of humans.
Yes, they could have. They could have made it caucasians against asians or something. But that's its own can of worms, and I turn back your question: why?

Quote:
If in reality there is no "gap" to bridge, then why pitch the story as such? It falls completely flat on its face.
It was never pitched as such. There are reasons for wars in general and this one in particular, yes. The Demon Queen explained what they were. It was never about fundamental differences except a basic recognition of "otherness".
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Old 2013-02-06, 06:18   Link #1272
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
^ First of all, there are also people who continue to compare this with "Kotowaru!". (Let me get that off my chest.)



Some (anime-only watchers) actually came here expecting something similar to Spice and Wolf, actually. That aside, those who find the anime series "“boring”, “forgettable”, and “bland” among other things" probably viewed anime in a different way than those who are satisfied with it. The trick here is to view the series within its universe — throw away the cliches you knew from TvTropes, stop viewing Maou's actions in a modern person's viewpoint and just enjoy the ride. (Think too much and Maou's actions would be like child's play. Think too little and you'll end up asleep. A little motivation also helps.) Those who are unable to do so will find difficulty in enjoying this series.

I recommend those who would watch this series to space out watching each episode, probably doing an episode once every four days or so. The plot covers so much time that it would feel too fast in a marathon, but also has an overall mood that might make it a bad idea to watch an episode weekly.

And holy cow, I think we're beginning to veer off-topic.
I am an anime only watcher, and I haven't even watch spice and wolf. I found the series "boring, forgettable and bland". The whole problem of MaoYuu is that it is executed poorly. I already have quite a high tolerance in terms of anime that talks alot. I found Gasaraki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasaraki fasinating, which alot of people found it boring because they expect a mecha series but instead most of the "fun" is people talking about politics and strategies. The problem of MaoYuu is not talking about economics and development, but they talk about economics in a very boring way. If there are people who can make karuta looks fun (ChihayaFuru), there is no excuse to make economics and development sounds boring. IMO, even if they animate hero's adventure, they will make it look boring. In the past episode there is a negotiation scene, they can easily make it fun but instead the production team makes it boring and forgettable.
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Old 2013-02-06, 06:53   Link #1273
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
I am an anime only watcher, and I haven't even watch spice and wolf. I found the series "boring, forgettable and bland". The whole problem of MaoYuu is that it is executed poorly. I already have quite a high tolerance in terms of anime that talks alot. I found Gasaraki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasaraki fasinating, which alot of people found it boring because they expect a mecha series but instead most of the "fun" is people talking about politics and strategies. The problem of MaoYuu is not talking about economics and development, but they talk about economics in a very boring way. If there are people who can make karuta looks fun (ChihayaFuru), there is no excuse to make economics and development sounds boring. IMO, even if they animate hero's adventure, they will make it look boring. In the past episode there is a negotiation scene, they can easily make it fun but instead the production team makes it boring and forgettable.
Thank you, fukarming.

Your post embodies the point that I want to get across to Marcus H. With that, allow me to quote you. Thanks again. Oh, and you’re not the only anime-only watcher who felt that way.
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Old 2013-02-06, 07:19   Link #1274
Marcus H.
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Well, I don't find it boring, actually.







Or I don't want to outright diss the production team in a series that I'm watching. I don't have the right to do so.
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Old 2013-02-06, 07:35   Link #1275
alunde
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I don't know, centuries of human lore and literature have characterized demons in a certain way. What's next, we are going to show that Lucifer is actually a moe girl and is just misunderstood?
I would point out that the "demon" as cute girl idea in anime/manga dates back least to Urusei Yatsura (manga 1978), with ToLove-Ru as a bolder "remake".

This series probably owes more to D&D gaming and less to Japanese myth, but the idea of a cute "antagonist" is all over the medium.
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Old 2013-02-06, 07:39   Link #1276
Snuffle
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Originally Posted by mangatron View Post

That takes some serious skill, right? I mean, one wrong move and Maou-chan is flatter than a loli
I refuse to believe this is real until I see it done on video.
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Old 2013-02-06, 10:37   Link #1277
Dark Wing
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I don't know, centuries of human lore and literature have characterized demons in a certain way. What's next, we are going to show that Lucifer is actually a moe girl and is just misunderstood? It's fine, that's creative license. However, things in the creative process need to be justified. "Just because" is not a good reason to change something so integral to the history of human interpretation of what a "demon" is. Especially when they want to just settle for the "demons are people too!" theme. I think it just brings down the setting to do this.
You're think about this from a western perspective. A lot of eastern literature have painted demons, ghost, or spirits on a very different light. Giving them more human like personalites making some out to be good or evil and this has been going in for centuries.
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Old 2013-02-06, 11:00   Link #1278
zRichard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
I found Gasaraki fasinating, most of the "fun" is people talking about politics and strategies.

The problem of MaoYuu is not talking about economics and development, but they talk about economics in a very boring way.

If there are people who can make karuta looks fun (ChihayaFuru), there is no excuse.
I watched Gasaraki more than 10 years ago and I remember that it had its fair share of action you could expect from a mecha. Chihayafuru is about a game, it's fun by pure nature. Could you say the same about Utakoi?

It sounds to me that you are simply less interested in macro economics than the other two themes. The show being boring to you because it's about boring stuff. But if that's not the case, and you are into economics and social development, what would be a better way to execute the exposition?
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Old 2013-02-06, 11:20   Link #1279
Sheba
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As an anime watcher and someone who read Kotowaru AND watched Spice & Wolf, I have been more than willing to give the animated series a chance to stand on its own.

I like it, but I don't love it. Learn the difference. Liking it means that I would take the episodes as they are released. Loving it would mean that I am eager for the next episode like I do for JoJo. So here it is, I like Maoyuu, I don't love it.

I enjoy the music, I enjoy the opening and the ending, I love the work of the seiyuu cast, especially Koshimizu and Sawashiro, it's just unfortunate that Fukuyama gets not much chance to work his magic since Yuusha is out of focus atm (one of the roots of the problem). I applaud the work of the character designers who really did their best to convey a true medieval feel through costume and architecture design.

However, as an adaptation, it failed and I think that the director is at fault. Why? Because I feel like he is going about the adaptation the wrong way. Maoyuu have been compared many times to Spice & Wolf, they even got the same seiyuu for the titular characters in both Drama CD and anime, you'd think that with the same director it would be a sweeping success, right?

No. Because, Maoyuu IS Maoyuu, NOT Spice & Wolf S3. And it appears that the director have approached the adaptation with the "It'll be like Spice & Wolf" mindset. Much of the Spice & Wolf's charm lies in its dynamic between Lawrence and Horo. But in Maoyuu, since Yuusha is out doing his hero business, and because of the apparent lack of will to animate aforementioned business (not good with action? Too little episodes to work with? We will never know), he have gone out of focus since the director would rather focus on one of the elements that made the success of Spice & Wolf, the economics. And it's at the expense of Yuusha. And Maoyuu became something more like just Maou. As it stands now at episode 4.

And fuck no, I am not dropping it. I like it. But right now, it is a 13 or 14/20 (french gradig system) for me.
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Old 2013-02-06, 13:22   Link #1280
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post
You're think about this from a western perspective. A lot of eastern literature have painted demons, ghost, or spirits on a very different light. Giving them more human like personalites making some out to be good or evil and this has been going in for centuries.
The demons here were not introduced in a manner like say Natsume's Book of Friends Youkai. This is a pseudo-medievalist setting that looks very much like the western medieval world. It's not about me even thinking from a western perspective, the western perspective is already there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alunde View Post
I would point out that the "demon" as cute girl idea in anime/manga dates back least to Urusei Yatsura (manga 1978), with ToLove-Ru as a bolder "remake".

This series probably owes more to D&D gaming and less to Japanese myth, but the idea of a cute "antagonist" is all over the medium.
Relying on the audience to recognize a trope is bad writing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
That's rather like asking why they bothered to put rubber forehead on people in Star Trek.

They're demons as a wink to Dragon Quest and other RPGs, because they're foreign (alien, even), and because the obvious, if ultimately superficial differences make the sudden unification against a common foe more believable.


Yes, they could have. They could have made it caucasians against asians or something. But that's its own can of worms, and I turn back your question: why?


It was never pitched as such. There are reasons for wars in general and this one in particular, yes. The Demon Queen explained what they were. It was never about fundamental differences except a basic recognition of "otherness".
So we're back to the "demons are people too!" theme, which again I stress I find to be highly mind numbing. If the demons really aren't all that foreign, then finding commonality among them and the humans is straightforward and there is no bridging of gaps to be found. The fact that they are demons does not not enrich the story in any way, which against raises its pointlessness to me of introducing demons in this setting. Again, they only use the fact that they are demons when it suits them.

And YES, the union between the Demon Queen and the Hero is meant as a way to bridge the gap between the two "foreign" sides. You're denying the very premise of the first episode. I am saying if they really were no different, there is hardly a gap to bridge. It makes the setting feel highly contrived and pointless.
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