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View Poll Results: Hyouka - Episode 11 Rating
Perfect 10 20 28.99%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 25 36.23%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 17 24.64%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 4.35%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 5.80%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-07-07, 01:26   Link #141
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
I agree with you, and that's why I brought it up. To me, viewing Irisu in a good light, so far, is as hard as justify that guy. I can still insist that no one know the end result will be bad. I can still insist that even if by lottery, he completely intended to make Sekitani Jun a hero. But would you buy it? I won't.


Same as Irisu here. I think she want the right to choose the script without the responsibility of doing so. That was why she went through so many hoops. There are two main parts to that[LIST=1][*]The success of the movie: If the movie is a failure because of the writing, she bare no responsibility aside from being a leader. People will either think Houtarou solution is wrong, or Hougou script is bad. However, given how she prioritized this, I think if this happened, she may come up clean and shoulder the blame. But you can see here that she doesn't have to.
Like hell. What she did was take responsibility, when she originally wasn't involved at all. As Triple-R said, from the moment she brought the Classics Club in, all the changes were on her head - and publicly okayed by her.

Remember the phone messaging. Hongou was ready to just go apologize, and that would have been that.

I'll add that you seem very concerned about what people will think of the movie. Like Oreki was tricked into take an enormous risk. But he wasn't. Not only did he go into this with his eyes open (if for the wrong reasons), but the risk was absolutely minimal. It's just a student film. Nobody's going to look for heads to roll if it's a failure. They were doing for self-satisfaction anyway, which means they have to take responsibility for not vetoing the script if they thought it wasn't up to scratch. And last but not least, what does Oreki care? Irisu has to work with them, but Oreki doesn't have to give a damn what they think. It'd be out of character for him to.
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Old 2012-07-07, 01:40   Link #142
Hyper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
*snipped*
Please forgive me about not answering point by point. I think it's hard to read. I'll try my best to express my respond.

It's harder to accept being manipulated by your family, I agree with you on that, but look at it from the manipulator point of view i.e. from Tomoe's. Of course she think she knows what's best for her brother. She has no problem manipulating him, but that does not mean she'll be ok with anyone doing the same thing to him. Irisu should realized that much. My point about this is Irisu cannot avoid bringing up the topic of her failure. So I disagree with the idea that she brought it up because she felt guilty. Even if she felt no guilty, she still had to brought it up. Tomoe is Houtarou's family, and had every right to know. It doesn't matter how "badly" she treated her brother.

Before moving on, let me make it clear. I have my opinion about Tomoe's action; she's trying to make him learn the way of the world. You can say, and I won't deny, that I'm giving her an easier time than Irisu. I think her action so far indicated that she has a good reason why she is giving him a hard time. I don't see any similar indication from Irisu towards her classmates. Maybe we just didn't see it at this point, but what we did see so far, to me, indicated otherwise. I'll refer to relentlessframe's arguments on this point. Noted, however, that my opinion about Tomoe does not affect my opinion about why Irisu has to brought up the topic.

I didn't say Irisu doesn't care about anything. We all agree she care about the success of the movie. She won't just escape from this, that's clear enough. Please allow me to emphasize that she want a "successful" movie, not just "finished." She can make Hougou the fall guy, but that won't make the movie a success. Neither does telling the class they sucks. That would backfire because they still need to do their parts (filming, etc.) This has nothing to do with whether or not she care about anyone. Even if she totally does not care about anyone, it can still be explained why she does not just escape and avoid telling they sucks. The reason being neither will make the movie a "success."

So yes, Irisu's virtue is she is very responsible on what she think is important. In this case, it's the success of the movie. That's why I said in my point (1) that if the movie turned out badly, she'll probably come clean and take the blame. However, she want no responsible on anything else (my point (2) and more). She just doesn't care because it's not important to her. So I have to go back to my first point: she got her priority wrong. I myself thought "She was not that bad" until I saw reaction to Tomoe's accusation. When I saw "But I'm not in a position to let it failed" then everything clicked. It explains why she lied, manipulated, and did whatever it took, good or bad, to make an "interesting" script. All of her nasty methods may be justified if what's on the line is something more important. I may be able to forgive her, if this movie is, say, crucial to someone's future career. But it's not. In the end, the only thing Irisu protected is one of the deadly sin: her pride.
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Old 2012-07-07, 02:11   Link #143
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
Please forgive me about not answering point by point. I think it's hard to read. I'll try my best to express my respond.

It's harder to accept being manipulated by your family, I agree with you on that, but look at it from the manipulator point of view i.e. from Tomoe's. Of course she think she knows what's best for her brother. She has no problem manipulating him, but that does not mean she'll be ok with anyone doing the same thing to him.
Then she bloody well shouldn't have told Irisu to do exactly that, should she?
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Old 2012-07-07, 02:16   Link #144
Hyper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Like hell. What she did was take responsibility, when she originally wasn't involved at all. As Triple-R said, from the moment she brought the Classics Club in, all the changes were on her head - and publicly okayed by her.

Remember the phone messaging. Hongou was ready to just go apologize, and that would have been that.

I'll add that you seem very concerned about what people will think of the movie. Like Oreki was tricked into take an enormous risk. But he wasn't. Not only did he go into this with his eyes open (if for the wrong reasons), but the risk was absolutely minimal. It's just a student film. Nobody's going to look for heads to roll if it's a failure. They were doing for self-satisfaction anyway, which means they have to take responsibility for not vetoing the script if they thought it wasn't up to scratch. And last but not least, what does Oreki care? Irisu has to work with them, but Oreki doesn't have to give a damn what they think. It'd be out of character for him to.
And sorry for double post. Here goes:

She will take a responsibility, the (1) one. I argued that she has a way out of that too, but if you think I'm wrong on that, I'm ok with it. Actually, let me just admit I'm wrong on that first point. Giving how she prioritized the success of the movie, she probably won't even try to watch her hands from that one.

The problem is she doesn't take the (2). Please refer to my last post's last paragraph for that.

I'll assume from your repeatedly "Like hell" that you try to tell me it's not on the same scale. It doesn't. I agree. I didn't even try to say that. I was tempted so many times in this discussion to bring Emiya Kiritsugu into the argument. I didn't because it's another step of "different scale." I'll probably get (Like hell)^137 if I brought him up . My point here is it's as hard to me to see Irisu and that-guy-behind-the-scene action in a "care too much" light. I just won't buy it.

Noted that I still see the similarity between the two events, even if it's on a different scale. If you disagree with me on that, I'm cool with it.

And I don't care about what people think about the movie. It sucks, intentionally even (by the real staffs themselves). Irisu is the one who care, because that is the indication of the movie's success. Too much, actually. That's where she went wrong.

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Then she bloody well shouldn't have told Irisu to do exactly that, should she?
Again, my point is Irisu cannot avoid bringing up the topic of her failure to cover it up to the end. That was the whole point of that argument. If you want to have a discussion about Tomoe's action then I stated my opinion in the later paragraph, but that have nothing to do with my argument of why Irisu say "I feel sorry for him." Triple_R thinks she brought it up because she felt sorry for him. I think it's because she cannot avoid bringing up the topic. That part of argument is to support that opinion of mine.

Last edited by Hyper; 2012-07-07 at 02:28.
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Old 2012-07-07, 02:27   Link #145
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
And sorry for double post. Here goes:

She will take a responsibility, the (1) one. I augured that she has a way out of that too, but if you think I'm wrong on that, I'm ok with it. Actually, let me just admit I'm wrong on that first point. Giving how she prioritized the success of the movie, she probably won't even try to watch her hands from that one.

The problem is she doesn't take the (2). Please refer to my last post's last paragraph for that.
You think she should have told them they all suck? That, to take responsibility, she had to destroy their self-esteem?

Quote:
I'll assume from your repeatedly "Like hell" that you try to tell me it's not on the same scale.
It doesn't have a particular meaning. I just occasionally latch onto expressions and keep using them everywhere for a bit. I'll probably have another one next week, or next moon.



Quote:
And I don't care about what people think about the movie. It sucks, intentionally even (by the real stuffs themselves). Irisu is the one who care, because that is the indication of the movie's success. Too much, actually. That's where she went wrong.
But you're the one bringing up the movie failure as a danger to Houtarou, to claim it was wrong to involve him. What I'm saying is, he doesn't particularly care, thus the danger on that front is nil.
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Old 2012-07-07, 02:46   Link #146
Hyper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You think she should have told them they all suck? That, to take responsibility, she had to destroy their self-esteem?

But you're the one bringing up the movie failure as a danger to Houtarou, to claim it was wrong to involve him. What I'm saying is, he doesn't particularly care, thus the danger on that front is nil.
I believe there are ways to sugarcoated it so that it doesn't destroy their self-esteem. I cannot think of one, admittingly. So, if the alternative is lying, then yes, she should have told them they all sucks. I said before that I hold honestly in high regard, and I stand by that opinion. It's like I'm dealing with a bad student. I will try a lot of sugarcoated words first (but never a lie), but when it reach a point, I'll told them they sucks if I have to. I will take the responsibility of my word. I need to answer them why they sucks and how they can be improved.

If I said a movie failure is a danger to him than I'll admit I was wrong. I think it was wrong to involve him using lies because a failure to solve the mystery is a danger to his self-esteem. Well, I just think involving him using lies is wrong in and of itself.
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Old 2012-07-07, 04:09   Link #147
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
I believe there are ways to sugarcoated it so that it doesn't destroy their self-esteem. I cannot think of one, admittingly. So, if the alternative is lying, then yes, she should have told them they all sucks. I said before that I hold honestly in high regard, and I stand by that opinion. It's like I'm dealing with a bad student. I will try a lot of sugarcoated words first (but never a lie), but when it reach a point, I'll told them they sucks if I have to. I will take the responsibility of my word. I need to answer them why they sucks and how they can be improved.
That's what we generally call "caring for people". Telling people the truth even when it hurts can be a difficult thing, but if your goal is to help the person improve (and that's clear in your words and actions), then most people will come to appreciate it eventually because it will help them. In an odd sort of way, now that the truth is out, I think Houtarou will come to appreciate the situation eventually (though he won't ever think good of her). If the truth didn't come out, he was just deceived, now has an inflated ego, and is prone to a bigger failure later.

By the way, let me propose an alternate story path for Irisu that would have almost totally redeemed her in my book:

Let's say that everything happened exactly as shown up to the point where Houtarou reveals the movie ending to Irisu (right near the end of Episode 10). But at that point, instead of being like "thanks so much for solving the mystery; you're so great" (paraphrase), she instead thanked him and apologized for using a false pretence to get his help. She could explain that she was really in a bind about the script, and had heard about his deductive ability, but didn't think he would agree to help her any other way. Would he be hurt by the deception? Yes. Might he be mad about the methods she used to ensnare him? Absolutely. But if she apologized to him sincerely, and thanked him for how he helped her, at least he might say "I was played like a fool, but at least I helped someone". He would know then that the ending he wrote actually was his own, which would deflate the questioning he got from the other members of the Classics Club. He could take some pride in the fact that (almost) everyone liked his ending. And he could improve (particularly his ability to avoid being tricked!) for next time.

Now I realize this approach has risks, partly because of the way she also manipulated other people and hasn't told them yet. But if we want to talk about "how to redeem Irisu" -- how to show that she felt bad for what she did and really does care for other people -- it's a lot easier to stomach if she apologizes and explains herself, even if it's after the fact. And heck, with that sort of ending, maybe she could even have an on-going role in the story! Here, it's like she did all this lying and thought she could get away with it, until the house came down on her like a stack of cards. That makes her look like a bad person. A clear apology (volunteered before being exposed) makes her look like a desperate and (thus) manipulative person, but not all bad. But, of course, I don't think it necessarily fits her reputation as "Empress" (but it would add a dimension to it).
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Old 2012-07-07, 04:27   Link #148
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
I believe there are ways to sugarcoated it so that it doesn't destroy their self-esteem. I cannot think of one, admittingly. So, if the alternative is lying, then yes, she should have told them they all sucks. I said before that I hold honestly in high regard, and I stand by that opinion. It's like I'm dealing with a bad student. I will try a lot of sugarcoated words first (but never a lie), but when it reach a point, I'll told them they sucks if I have to. I will take the responsibility of my word. I need to answer them why they sucks and how they can be improved.
I think you're missing the point of the movie. They're not hopeful filmmakers looking to work in the industry, hoping their work will get them noticed. They're hobbyist making something for self-satisfaction. It's their own job to determine whether what they did is satisfactory or not.

Irisu isn't their teacher. She's barely their leader. She wasn't brought in for her knowledge of the medium or the genre, of which she has little. She intervened because she's good at mediating between conflicting parties and getting a product out of the door.

So, no, her job isn't to help make them better filmmakers. It's not what they want, it's not what she's good at, and she doesn't have the authority for it (not just in the sense that she can't order them around, but in that they won't value her opinion all that much). Her job is to make them crap out a movie so they'll be able to look back on it and say "yes, we made an amateur movie for the school festival" with maybe some embarrassment at the low production value, but without shame or bitterness.
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Old 2012-07-07, 05:08   Link #149
Hyper
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I think you're missing the point of the movie. They're not hopeful filmmakers looking to work in the industry, hoping their work will get them noticed. They're hobbyist making something for self-satisfaction. It's their own job to determine whether what they did is satisfactory or not.

Irisu isn't their teacher. She's barely their leader. She wasn't brought in for her knowledge of the medium or the genre, of which she has little. She intervened because she's good at mediating between conflicting parties and getting a product out of the door.

So, no, her job isn't to help make them better filmmakers. It's not what they want, it's not what she's good at, and she doesn't have the authority for it (not just in the sense that she can't order them around, but in that they won't value her opinion all that much). Her job is to make them crap out a movie so they'll be able to look back on it and say "yes, we made an amateur movie for the school festival" with maybe some embarrassment at the low production value, but without shame or bitterness.
I don't think I miss the point. I think Irisu did. Actually, I agree with everything you said in this post. The thing is, Irisu acted like they're making a commercial film, where success is the single most important thing. She is willing to lie, manipulate, and everything in-between to ensure it's a success. She doesn't have any more authority than anyone in the class to reject a script or choosing a new one. However, she did everything so she could do that, in the name of making sure it's a good movie. I have a problem with that.

And yes she is not their teachers, so the responsibility is not the same as my example. However, they are her friends, and I think if your friend is wrong (sucks), you have to tell them that, and explain why. That was exactly what Mayaka, Satoshi, and Eru did for Houtarou. They faced him with the truth; he was wrong. They didn't have the ability to teach him the right answer, but they could explain to him why he was wrong, so they did. They risked having Houtarou hate them, but they still said it, because they cared.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
That's what we generally call "caring for people". Telling people the truth even when it hurts can be a difficult thing, but if your goal is to help the person improve (and that's clear in your words and actions), then most people will come to appreciate it eventually because it will help them. In an odd sort of way, now that the truth is out, I think Houtarou will come to appreciate the situation eventually (though he won't ever think good of her). If the truth didn't come out, he was just deceived, now has an inflated ego, and is prone to a bigger failure later.
Absolutely agree. I think I now understand why I'm so opposed to the idea that Irisu cared about others. What she did is the opposite of what I do. I only say "you sucks" (in the real sense) to people I care about. If I don't care, I won't bother. I don't want the responsibility that come with it.

Now you make me suspect that if Houtarou didn't figure it out, Tomoe will tell him herself that he got used. If we assume that she did this to his benefit, then it is what she should do.
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Old 2012-07-07, 07:47   Link #150
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
I don't think I miss the point. I think Irisu did. Actually, I agree with everything you said in this post. The thing is, Irisu acted like they're making a commercial film, where success is the single most important thing. She is willing to lie, manipulate, and everything in-between to ensure it's a success. She doesn't have any more authority than anyone in the class to reject a script or choosing a new one. However, she did everything so she could do that, in the name of making sure it's a good movie. I have a problem with that.
In fact, it wasn't treated as a commercial movie. And that's why telling them they suck would be utterly pointless. Again, it's about self-satisfaction. Telling them they're not good enough is just being the guy asking others to stop having fun. No one gains anything by it.

If it had gone to plan, her solution would have gotten that satisfaction for everyone. Even if the prop guy wasn't happy his solution wasn't used, at least his arm - which he put a lot of work in - didn't get cut and fit with the story. Hongou got out of it without having to explain herself. (As I said earlier, she should at the very least have told the director what her plan was. But really, she should have drawn her line in the sand from the beginning and openly refused to write a murder, and votes be damned.) Irisu herself didn't get associated with a movie she didn't like. (Why wouldn't her own satisfaction matter?) Houtarou got to be the hero who salvaged the project.


Quote:
Absolutely agree. I think I now understand why I'm so opposed to the idea that Irisu cared about others. What she did is the opposite of what I do. I only say "you sucks" (in the real sense) to people I care about. If I don't care, I won't bother. I don't want the responsibility that come with it.
It's not a matter of responsibility, but of authority. Unless you're doing for your own self-satisfaction rather than to "help" others, for your "you suck" to be useful, they have to accept it as truth, or at least consider it. Which means you need either solid arguments, or be some kind of authority. Irisu wasn't in a position to do that.
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Old 2012-07-07, 07:48   Link #151
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Irisu was perfectly happy to puff up Oreki's ego as long as it got the solution she wanted. She probably didn't think it would do any harm. Lie a bit, manipulate a bit, everyone's happy and the project she has taken responsibility for is sorted out. The minor problem from her perspective would be that Oreki realised the lie, not that there was anything wrong with the lie in the first place or that she would not have done it if she had realised it would hurt him.

But, this is not a morally correct way to go about things. This is what happens when people lie and manipulate others: they hurt people and upset them when they realise they have been used. I have to agree with those who have said that Irisu's leadership skills are lacking. Good leaders should have integrity and honour, and Irisu's lies and manipulation simply for the sake of a lousy class mystery film do not show that. There was no need to do something like that for the sake of something this trivial. It's very much an ends justifying the means point of view, and it isn't healthy. The implication is that Irisu approaches everything she has responsibility for with this sort of attitude of success at all cost.

I'll quote the text from the novel rather than going through and writing down the text from the last ep:

Quote:
A.ta.shi♪: seems like you got things sorted out
Anonymous: all thanks to you, sempai
A.ta.shi♪: why you're welcome. glad to be at your service
Anonymous: though i feel sorry for him
Anonymous: for doing something like that to him
A.ta.shi♪: you really think so?
Anonymous: really what?
A.ta.shi♪: as in you're really sorry towards him
Anonymous: since you're on the other side of the world
Anonymous: i felt like bluffing
A.ta.shi♪: lol, figures
A.ta.shi♪: but you know?
Anonymous: yes?
A.ta.shi♪: you've lied to me as well, haven't you?
A.ta.shi♪: so you keep your trap shut!
Anonymous: i, lied?
A.ta.shi♪: that's right. you shouldn't manipulate people on the other side of the world
A.ta.shi♪: especially me
A.ta.shi♪: just kidding
Anonymous: i wasn't really lying
A.ta.shi♪: you wanted to protect the girl who did the script, which is why you asked me for help, right?
A.ta.shi♪: in other words, the problem lies with the script, right?
A.ta.shi♪: you knew i would reject solving such a hopeless problem
A.ta.shi♪: yet you still wanted to protect her
A.ta.shi♪: you sure know how to help yourself under the pretext of helping someone else
A.ta.shi♪: though it seems that idiot still hasn't realized
Anonymous: sempai
Anonymous: my priority has always been to ensure the success of the project
Anonymous: sempai?
A.ta.shi♪ has logged out
Eh, that bit at the end there seemed clearer in the anime so I'll type that bit out anyway.

Quote:
A.ta.shi♪: you didn't really come to me because you wanted to protect the girl who wrote the script, did you?
A.ta.shi♪: you just thought that the original script was boring from the start
A.ta.shi♪: you just rejected the script in a way that wouldn't hurt her
A.ta.shi♪: don't worry, that idiot probably didn't notice that
The implications are more or less the same. Irisu didn't feel bad for manipulating Oreki, and protecting Hongou was not really the priority, just the pretext. She did act in a way that wouldn't hurt Hongou. This may have been because she didn't want to hurt her, and/or because an outcome where Hongou's script was openly rejected would have led to a less successful outcome for the project. And Irisu had taken on responsibility for that project. The class decided that Hongou was the only one who could write the story, appointed her without asking, and got her to write a story in a genre she's unfamiliar with, causing her a lot of stress. And then the class screwed up Hongou's plan to the point where Hongou was out of ideas. If this all comes out, it looks a lot worse than "sadly, our script writer is too ill to tell us the answer, and we need to find it," and it could lead to a plain collapse of the project.

Thinking about that, assuming Irisu's goal was simply to at all cost get a film ending she found acceptable, there was very little hope for her there, wasn't there? Apparently, both she and an entire class of people were unable to come up with an ending she was happy with. The "let's get someone in to find Hongou's true intentions!" tack is really the only thing she could have done for that goal instead of saying "you all suck at writing, and I won't let any of your scripts be used for the ending, so we'll have to get in someone from another class to do it". Depressing. Still, I think she should have left the ending up to the class and had them decide on an ending of their own making. It doesn't have to be a great movie, as long as the class can decide on an ending.
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Old 2012-07-07, 11:20   Link #152
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
Please forgive me about not answering point by point. I think it's hard to read.
That's fine. I don't mind you replying the way you did.


Quote:
My point about this is Irisu cannot avoid bringing up the topic of her failure.
Well, like I said before, Tomoe likely already knows that Oreki found out that he was being manipulated. Otherwise, the way Irisu "brings up the topic of her failure" is really, really weird. It just doesn't make sense to start off with "I feel sorry for him." when the other person doesn't already know what you're feeling sorry about. That line only makes sense if Tomoe already knows that Oreki found out about how he was being manipulated.

So the only real reason (and the most likely reason going by Occam's Razor) for Irisu to bring up Oreki is that Irisu does feel at least some guilt over how she hurt Oreki.



Quote:
You can say, and I won't deny, that I'm giving her an easier time than Irisu. I think her action so far indicated that she has a good reason why she is giving him a hard time. I don't see any similar indication from Irisu towards her classmates.
Irisu has good reasons for her actions. She wanted the movie project to be a success. She wanted to minimize any hurt or disappointment arising from the movie project, and she wanted as many people as possible to feel pleased about the final outcome of the movie project. Irisu clearly would have preferred it if Oreki had come out of this blissfully ignorant of how he was tricked, and hence happy with himself.

Her methods are obviously questionable, but she had good reasons for why she took the actions that she did.


Quote:
Even if she totally does not care about anyone,
If she totally does not care about anyone, why would she want a successful movie? For the sake of her own image? Well, like I argued to you, her own image is best secured and protected by making Hongou the fall guy, and washing her hands of the entire situation as much as possible.

No, Irisu's desire for the movie to be a success must go beyond simple self-interest. She must care some about other people in order for her to take the actions that she did.



Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
That's what we generally call "caring for people". Telling people the truth even when it hurts can be a difficult thing, but if your goal is to help the person improve (and that's clear in your words and actions), then most people will come to appreciate it eventually because it will help them.
Maybe somebody should have told Hongou that.

If Hongou doesn't deserve "harsh judgement" for "not standing up to the class" (i.e. tell difficult truths about her discomfort in writing a movie with a murder in it), than nor does Irisu deserve "harsh judgement" for not telling difficult truths.

Hongou and Irisu both favor conflict-avoidance. They both don't want to displease, disappoint, or upset people.


Quote:
In an odd sort of way, now that the truth is out, I think Houtarou will come to appreciate the situation eventually (though he won't ever think good of her).
... Didn't you write that Irisu is not beyond hope or redemption? So why do you think that Oreki will "never think good of her"? Unless you think that Oreki has a hard and extremely unforgiving heart, that doesn't add up.

If Irisu redeems herself, in your eyes, isn't it conceivable that Oreki may one day think better of her?


Quote:
If the truth didn't come out, he was just deceived, now has an inflated ego, and is prone to a bigger failure later.
One lone success won't give a person an inflated ego for long, so I don't think that Oreki not learning the truth is all that dangerous.

I think a decent case can be made that Oreki would have been better off not knowing the truth. Like Anh_Minh stated, if Irisu's plan had fully worked, it would have brought satisfaction for everybody. There is some obvious value in that.


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Now I realize this approach has risks, partly because of the way she also manipulated other people and hasn't told them yet.
Not only that, but I don't know if you're realizing just how very troll-esque your Irisu suggestion is.

If I was in Oreki's shoes, I would feel totally trolled if Irisu took the approach that you're advocating. This wouldn't help Irisu's image at all, in my view. In fact, it would make me see her as much more brazen and, well, trollish.


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Here, it's like she did all this lying and thought she could get away with it, until the house came down on her like a stack of cards.
"Get away with it" implies that she was lying for personal gain. She wasn't. She didn't want to "get away with it" for her own sake. She wanted to "get away with it" so that the project would be a success and so that everybody would be left satisfied. Irisu certainly isn't a Saint. But I think it's a bit too simplistic to call her a "bad person".


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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Irisu was perfectly happy to puff up Oreki's ego as long as it got the solution she wanted.
Making somebody feel good about themselves is a bad thing now?


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She probably didn't think it would do any harm. Lie a bit, manipulate a bit, everyone's happy and the project she has taken responsibility for is sorted out.
Yes. It's not hard to see why Irisu took the course of action she did. It has some very attractive elements to it.


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I have to agree with those who have said that Irisu's leadership skills are lacking. Good leaders should have integrity and honour,
How many of the great leaders of human history do you think never once manipulated someone, or was ever dishonest with them?

How many US Presidents do you think never once lied to someone, and never manipulated someone? Were all the ones who ever told a lie or manipulated someone bad leaders because of it?


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Irisu's lies and manipulation simply for the sake of a lousy class mystery film do not show that. There was no need to do something like that for the sake of something this trivial.
Just because it's trivial to you doesn't mean it's trivial to the club. Actually, as student projects go, a school film is a pretty big deal. It requires a lot more work and effort than most other conceivable student projects. From a student perspective, it's an ambitious undertaking and requires a lot of work.


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Thinking about that, assuming Irisu's goal was simply to at all cost get a film ending she found acceptable, there was very little hope for her there, wasn't there? Apparently, both she and an entire class of people were unable to come up with an ending she was happy with. The "let's get someone in to find Hongou's true intentions!" tack is really the only thing she could have done for that goal instead of saying "you all suck at writing, and I won't let any of your scripts be used for the ending, so we'll have to get in someone from another class to do it". Depressing. Still, I think she should have left the ending up to the class and had them decide on an ending of their own making.
Maybe so. But I can certainly see why Irisu didn't consider that acceptable.
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Old 2012-07-07, 14:32   Link #153
GoldenLand
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Making somebody feel good about themselves is a bad thing now?
It is when you're lying and manipulating someone for your own gain, and they realise they've been used. Did Oreki think it was a good, positive thing? He did not. Although it is useful for his long-term character development.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
How many of the great leaders of human history do you think never once manipulated someone, or was ever dishonest with them?

How many US Presidents do you think never once lied to someone, and never manipulated someone? Were all the ones who ever told a lie or manipulated someone bad leaders because of it?
I think this is where you're going wrong here. Irisu isn't a US president. She's not a great leader of human history, either. Nobody is going to be in real trouble (except perhaps a little in-class trouble for Hongou, who is not Irisu's main motivation) if the project does not have an ending that satisfied Irisu. She doesn't have an excuse for going this far over a little project. When her manipulations go wrong and Oreki gets upset, she's not even sorry.

I'll restate that I think a good leader should have integrity and honour. Sometimes they may be forced to tarnish themselves, but at the level and situation Irisu is working in, she has no such need. In fact, in most leadership positions, a trustworthy, honest leader is the best type for their subordinates. Rather than somebody of the puppetmaster type.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Just because it's trivial to you doesn't mean it's trivial to the club. Actually, as student projects go, a school film is a pretty big deal. It requires a lot more work and effort than most other conceivable student projects. From a student perspective, it's an ambitious undertaking and requires a lot of work.
Hah, even though I've been watching Hyouka and reading all the threads here, I'd totally forgotten this, but you've reminded me: a situation with some similarities to this happened to me back when I was a schoolkid. There was a week to do the video in, I was the writer and director, and a few days in I got really sick and contacting me wasn't at all possible. They couldn't even retrieve the script from me. The project fell right over, of course. The other people involved couldn't be expected to finish it in that time. It was not a big deal, and people were more worried that I was sick than about the project.

The film-making class in Hyouka was not in a bad position. They were committed to their task and had put forward several solutions. They had every opportunity to pull together and make the best of their situation by picking one of their ideas. A whole class full of people should have been able to decide on a solution in time. It's rather mystifying that they're apparently all too stupid, Irisu included, to choose one and write it. All that ended up being written on Oreki's advice was a single scene.

It was their class project, and it is appropriate that it should represent the work they put into it, rather than the work of someone else. If it was substandard, then that was the limit of their skill and they couldn't go any further. They weren't wrong to try to find a better solution, but I'm not sure they would have approved of the methods used to find that, had they known. And would the class have been happy to find that their four ideas had been rejected not because they were impossible to pull off or because they did not fit Hongou's vision (the vision of someone from their class), but because Irisu did not think the class was good enough?

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Old 2012-07-07, 14:46   Link #154
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Let me say my opinion on a related topic first. I was raising my eyebrows when I read some people's reaction to Mayaka, Satoshi, and Eru in this episode. Like how they were too harsh or over-dramatized for a stupid movie. I now understand why that reaction bothers me. The reason is again because it is what I do for my friend. I won't care a bit for that stupid movie, but I do care that my friend is wrong. The reason it's serious is my friend is showing the whole school a wrong answer and he doesn't notice it. I cannot leave it like that because I call that "abandon" my friend.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
In fact, it wasn't treated as a commercial movie. And that's why telling them they suck would be utterly pointless. Again, it's about self-satisfaction. Telling them they're not good enough is just being the guy asking others to stop having fun. No one gains anything by it.

If it had gone to plan, her solution would have gotten that satisfaction for everyone. Even if the prop guy wasn't happy his solution wasn't used, at least his arm - which he put a lot of work in - didn't get cut and fit with the story. Hongou got out of it without having to explain herself. (As I said earlier, she should at the very least have told the director what her plan was. But really, she should have drawn her line in the sand from the beginning and openly refused to write a murder, and votes be damned.) Irisu herself didn't get associated with a movie she didn't like. (Why wouldn't her own satisfaction matter?) Houtarou got to be the hero who salvaged the project.
I simply have to disagree with you here. I won't wait until the stake is high enough before telling my friends they're bad at something. That will hurt them pointlessly. To go with my example, if I want to tell my student they're bad, I have to tell them when it's a quiz, where the impact is minimal. If I tell them closer or after the final, then it's too late. I already have to failed them. Precisely because this is a pointless movie that Irisu should tell them they're bad, if she cares about them. Again, that's what his three friends did for Houtarou.

About "what if it went according to plan," my respond is I won't call her plan acceptable in the first place. Her plan will hurt people, because the truth will come out. Maybe now, maybe later, but it will. We see how it does not satisfied everyone when the lies are exposed. Again, for me, lying is not an option. You can insist on it. And say the truth come out 40+ years later when it already became a classic like the first arc, it probably won't matter. I'll say that now you went to the opposite extreme from Irisu, emphasizing too much for the fun. That will just inflate your friends' ego, and it is not something I'll do to my friend if I care.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It's not a matter of responsibility, but of authority. Unless you're doing for your own self-satisfaction rather than to "help" others, for your "you suck" to be useful, they have to accept it as truth, or at least consider it. Which means you need either solid arguments, or be some kind of authority. Irisu wasn't in a position to do that.
For a teacher, they need both. For a friend, they need a solid argument. Irisu is in the position to do that, she just doesn't want to do it. For my friend, pointing out when they do wrong is an obligation. It is my responsibility for people I care.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Well, like I said before, Tomoe likely already knows that Oreki found out that he was being manipulated. Otherwise, the way Irisu "brings up the topic of her failure" is really, really weird. It just doesn't make sense to start off with "I feel sorry for him." when the other person doesn't already know what you're feeling sorry about. That line only makes sense if Tomoe already knows that Oreki found out about how he was being manipulated.

So the only real reason (and the most likely reason going by Occam's Razor) for Irisu to bring up Oreki is that Irisu does feel at least some guilt over how she hurt Oreki.
Because I don't think we see the whole log, or this is not the first one. Irisu have to tell the whole story before the part we see, otherwise the whole log doesn't make sense. You point out that it doesn't make sense to start off with "I feel sorry for him." I would go further and argue that it doesn't make sense for Tomoe to start the whole conversation with "seems like you got things sorted out." So yes Tomoe know about it before the part we see. You think Tomoe tell Irisu to lie to Houtarou, and my respond is even if that's the case, Irisu still have to tell her that she failed to cover it up. The only scenario where Irisu doesn't have to do that is Tomoe told her from the very beginning that her plan will failed and Houtarou will find out. That doesn't make any sense. So even if she feel no guilt, she still has to bring up the topic of her failure. She has to cover herself before Tomoe hear that from Houtarou.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Irisu has good reasons for her actions. She wanted the movie project to be a success. She wanted to minimize any hurt or disappointment arising from the movie project, and she wanted as many people as possible to feel pleased about the final outcome of the movie project. Irisu clearly would have preferred it if Oreki had come out of this blissfully ignorant of how he was tricked, and hence happy with himself.

Her methods are obviously questionable, but she had good reasons for why she took the actions that she did.

If she totally does not care about anyone, why would she want a successful movie? For the sake of her own image? Well, like I argued to you, her own image is best secured and protected by making Hongou the fall guy, and washing her hands of the entire situation as much as possible.

No, Irisu's desire for the movie to be a success must go beyond simple self-interest. She must care some about other people in order for her to take the actions that she did.
Pride. She take pride in making a successful movie, and she think that her classmate prioritized the same thing. That explains why she doesn't escape from the project(1), why she doesn't make Hougou the fall guy(2), why she take those actions even if she does not care for anyone(3), and why she think her actions, which we think questionable, is totally ok(4).

(1) Abandon the project. Hurt her pride.
(2) Won't help the project in anyway.
(3) Because telling them the truth won't help the project. They still cannot write a better script. No benefit for her or the project to be hated for.
(4) It helps the project to move along.

Last edited by Hyper; 2012-07-07 at 15:03. Reason: Fixed (3)
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Old 2012-07-07, 15:09   Link #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
It is when you're lying and manipulating someone for your own gain, and they realise they've been used.
Well, sure. But the compliments themselves aren't the problem. For one thing, the compliments are arguably accurate anyway.


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I think this is where you're going wrong here.
If you're setting a standard for good leadership in general then you need to factor in all leadership positions from the highest to the lowest, imo. So I don't think I'm going wrong at all.


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Nobody is going to be in real trouble (except perhaps a little in-class trouble for Hongou, who is not Irisu's main motivation) if the project does not have an ending that satisfied Irisu.
And who's in "real trouble" from Oreki getting manipulated, and him finding out about it?

You and some other people on this thread are blowing this way out of proportion, in my opinion.

And the irony is that you're making a huge deal out of it while you're simultaneously talking about how supposedly unimportant this student film is. Well, if bruising one guy's ego is a huge deal, then by the same rationale it's obviously also a huge deal to disappoint a full class of students.


Quote:
She doesn't have an excuse for going this far over a little project.
"This far"? The net negative effect is a little bit of manipulation, and bruising one guy's ego. Like Anh_Minh and I have both said, it's on the level of a simple prank. Sure, it's not exactly nice, but it's not some grave miscarriage of justice.


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The film-making class in Hyouka was not in a bad position. They were committed to their task and had put forward several solutions. They had every opportunity to pull together and make the best of their situation by picking one of their ideas. A whole class full of people should have been able to decide on a solution in time. It's rather mystifying that they're apparently all too stupid, Irisu included, to choose one and write it.
It's not a matter of stupidity. They simply weren't sure who would fit best as the culprit of the crime. Truth be told, Oreki's Detective Skills was a factor in why Irisu turned to him.


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It was their class project, and it is appropriate that it should represent the work they put into it, rather than the work of someone else.
So student clubs should never ask for outside help? Really?


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They weren't wrong to try to find a better solution, but I'm not sure they would have approved of the methods used to find that, had they known. And would the class have been happy to find that their four ideas had been rejected not because they were impossible to pull off or because they did not fit Hongou's vision (the vision of someone from their class), but because Irisu did not think the class was good enough?
Irisu didn't think that. Oreki did. If Oreki had accepted one of those theories, Irisu likely would have accepted it as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
Because I don't think we see the whole log, or this is not the first one. Irisu have to tell the whole story before the part we see, otherwise the whole log doesn't make sense. You point out that it doesn't make sense to start off with "I feel sorry for him." I would go further and argue that it doesn't make sense for Tomoe to start the whole conversation with "seems like you got things sorted out." So yes Tomoe know about it before the part we see. You think Tomoe tell Irisu to lie to Houtarou, and my respond is even if that's the case, Irisu still have to tell her that she failed to cover it up.
Sure, I agree with all of that.

So here's the thing:

1. Tomoe already knows about how Oreki found out the truth, and I'm inclined to think that Irisu already told her about it off camera.

2. Judging by the first two lines that we do see Tomoe write to Irisu, Tomoe doesn't appear to be upset about this.

So if Irisu is only worried about looking good in Tomoe's eyes, she doesn't need to bring up Oreki at all.
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Old 2012-07-07, 15:44   Link #156
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
I think this is where you're going wrong here. Irisu isn't a US president. She's not a great leader of human history, either. Nobody is going to be in real trouble (except perhaps a little in-class trouble for Hongou, who is not Irisu's main motivation) if the project does not have an ending that satisfied Irisu. She doesn't have an excuse for going this far over a little project. When her manipulations go wrong and Oreki gets upset, she's not even sorry.

I'll restate that I think a good leader should have integrity and honour. Sometimes they may be forced to tarnish themselves, but at the level and situation Irisu is working in, she has no such need. In fact, in most leadership positions, a trustworthy, honest leader is the best type for their subordinates. Rather than somebody of the puppetmaster type.
So what you're saying is, a great leader is someone with integrity and honor, unless the stakes are high. Which means you can pretty much scrap the idea of finding actual examples, because it's high stakes that reveal great leaders.


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Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
Let me say my opinion on a related topic first. I was raising my eyebrows when I read some people's reaction to Mayaka, Satoshi, and Eru in this episode. Like how they were too harsh or over-dramatized for a stupid movie. I now understand why that reaction bothers me. The reason is again because it is what I do for my friend. I won't care a bit for that stupid movie, but I do care that my friend is wrong. The reason it's serious is my friend is showing the whole school a wrong answer and he doesn't notice it. I cannot leave it like that because I call that "abandon" my friend.



I simply have to disagree with you here. I won't wait until the stake is high enough before telling my friends they're bad at something. That will hurt them pointlessly. To go with my example, if I want to tell my student they're bad, I have to tell them when it's a quiz, where the impact is minimal. If I tell them closer or after the final, then it's too late. I already have to failed them.
Chalk it up to differences in teaching philosophy, but I've never told a student he was bad. I've told them they were incorrect all day long, but I never saw the point in telling them they were bad. Not that they couldn't draw their own conclusions.

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Precisely because this is a pointless movie that Irisu should tell them they're bad, if she cares about them. Again, that's what his three friends did for Houtarou.
Except she's not their teacher and it's not a math problem. It makes no sense to tell them they're bad because they're the ones who get to decide if they're satisfied or not. It's like a game, where some people play to win, while others play to have fun. There's no point in telling the latter they could get better if they played another way when they clearly don't want to. Especially when you're a terrible player yourself.
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Old 2012-07-07, 15:58   Link #157
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
If you're setting a standard for good leadership in general then you need to factor in all leadership positions from the highest to the lowest, imo. So I don't think I'm going wrong at all..
I disagree with you. I don't think that the logic of "It's fine for Irisu to lie and be manipulative over a school project because great leaders in history have sometimes needed to lie and be manipulative" stands up. I'm looking at this from the point of view of manipulation and lies usually being a bad thing, and saying that the situation with Irisu was not an exception to that.

But OK, we can leave that point there since it looks like we won't agree.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And who's in "real trouble" from Oreki getting manipulated, and him finding out about it?

You and some other people on this thread are blowing this way out of proportion, in my opinion.
This from the guy who was comparing Irisu's actions to Homura's and great leaders through history earlier.

Your first line there doesn't seem to make sense or any actual argument in response to my point in my post earlier, so I'll leave it.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And the irony is that you're making a huge deal out of it while you;re simultaneously talking about how supposedly unimportant this student film is. Well, if bruising one guy's ego is a huge deal, then by the same rationale it's obviously also a huge deal to disappoint a full class of students.
It's not a huge thing, but Irisu's actions were out of proportion. Irisu did not need to lie and manipulate others in that situation, and it was not the choice of a good leader. Perhaps she is a better leader in other circumstances, perhaps not.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
So student clubs should never ask for outside help? Really?
My next lines after the one you've got a problem with there were "If it was substandard, then that was the limit of their skill and they couldn't go any further. They weren't wrong to try to find a better solution, but I'm not sure they would have approved of the methods used to find that, had they known."

No, they weren't wrong to look for a better solution.

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Irisu didn't think that. Oreki did. If Oreki had accepted one of those theories, Irisu likely would have accepted it as well.
I would hope so, but I'm not convinced she would be satisfied that that would make for the successful project she was so set on making. Initially, she wanted the Classics Club (Oreki) to play detective and supposedly find Hongou's answer. It's only after that was rejected that she tried the "compromise" of having them look at the class's theories. She was extremely likely at that point have expected all of the three theories to be discarded as substandard. Her intention from the start will have been to have Oreki write them a new answer. So, if Oreki said one of the three theories was okay, she might not have been pleased, because her objective of a good film would not be met.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
So what you're saying is, a great leader is someone with integrity and honor, unless the stakes are high. Which means you can pretty much scrap the idea of finding actual examples, because it's high stakes that reveal great leaders.
I'm saying that circumstances and standards differ. Lying for a cause like saving lives, for example, is a different kettle of fish from lying for your own gain and pride. Most people will not be in a circumstance where them being a good leader involves lying in order to save lives.
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Old 2012-07-07, 16:51   Link #158
Hyper
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Chalk it up to differences in teaching philosophy, but I've never told a student he was bad. I've told them they were incorrect all day long, but I never saw the point in telling them they were bad. Not that they couldn't draw their own conclusions.
I have to tell them they were wrong, and why, so they can fix it and improve next time. Failing that is my failure as a teacher or a friend. I'm not saying I've never did that, but I won't excuse myself from those mistakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Except she's not their teacher and it's not a math problem. It makes no sense to tell them they're bad because they're the ones who get to decide if they're satisfied or not. It's like a game, where some people play to win, while others play to have fun. There's no point in telling the latter they could get better if they played another way when they clearly don't want to. Especially when you're a terrible player yourself.
She is not their teacher, I already agree with you on that. But if they want to write a script instead of using Hougou's, then it is Irisu's obligation as their friend and the leader to tell them they're bad. If you think she doesn't have to tell them because she doesn't care, that I can agree, but then she shouldn't lie to them and just pick one of their scripts. On the other hand, if they reply to her "We don't care! Let's just have fun!" then everything is great. There is no point trying to convince them to do it seriously, like you said.

The problem is Irisu doesn't want that. She want a good movie, and she will lie to her friends to make that happen, regardless of how her friends actually want to play this game. She is the one who want to play this game to win, and she will drag her friend along with her, whether they like it or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
2. Judging by the first two lines that we do see Tomoe write to Irisu, Tomoe doesn't appear to be upset about this.

So if Irisu is only worried about looking good in Tomoe's eyes, she doesn't need to bring up Oreki at all.
I will argue that no one will take any chance about hurting another's brother. Tomoe may not appear to be upset, but how can anyone be so sure about it? To top it off, this is a text chat. She can't even see Tomoe's expression. I probably can accept it if you want to disagree with me here, but I won't take any change in this situation. This is her brother we are talking about. I have to make sure I excuse myself about hurting him. I have to make sure I can control the damage. Unless, as I said, Tomoe told her she will fail to lie to Houtarou. Then the only reason to bring it up again is she really felt sorry.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And who's in "real trouble" from Oreki getting manipulated, and him finding out about it?

You and some other people on this thread are blowing this way out of proportion, in my opinion.

And the irony is that you're making a huge deal out of it while you're simultaneously talking about how supposedly unimportant this student film is. Well, if bruising one guy's ego is a huge deal, then by the same rationale it's obviously also a huge deal to disappoint a full class of students.
Let me put some numbers, call srsbns score™, to explain my opinion.

Emiya Kiritsugu's wish: 10^137
Sekitani Jun's expulsion: 10^6

Lying to your classmate: 10
Lying to Houtarou, a (relatively) stranger: 1
Hurting Houtarou's pride: 1
Disappointment of the whole class: 0.1
Success of the class movie: 0.01

Everything in this arc is hopelessly insignificant compare to the first two. However, when you compare within themselves, there are differences. I simply value honestly much more than the success of the movie or satisfaction of the whole class. I also say one can make the class satisfy to an extend without any lie by just picking one of their script. My problem with Irisu is she probably think the success of the movie is somewhere around 50, so for her it make sense to do what she did.

Last edited by Hyper; 2012-07-07 at 16:53. Reason: Fixed first respond
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Old 2012-07-07, 18:21   Link #159
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Looking at the whole thing pragmatically, I don't see what all the fuss is about. Hongou had a problem with the execution of the script. Irisu gracefully offered to take on the responsibility for it. After all, they shared a common goal in creating a successful movie. Whether or not she had ulterior motives for doing so makes no difference. Can you honestly fault someone for harboring ulterior motives?

Of course, her deception towards Houtarou was a tad bit more questionable, but that's another matter entirely.
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Old 2012-07-08, 14:44   Link #160
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These are random thoughts on the episode and the whole story arc. I'm not posting this for the sake of feedback. Instead, I mean this post to clarify my own thoughts on the subject. It's just that posting my musings where others might read them (even if nobody actually does) tends to enhance the rigor of my analysis. I apologize in advance selfishly hijacking the thread, but in my defence, this discussion looks like it's petering out anyway. References to specific scenes in the anime are based on Episode # + minute:second, using Media Player Classic.

1. This was not a mystery story. At first, I too thought it was. But it's not. The discussion here was initially preoccupied with whether Houtaro's solution for the ending was "wrong." How can there be a "wrong" answer when the story does not even provide the "correct" answer but successfully resolves the central dramatic conflict of the narrative nevertheless? At the 21:04 mark of Episode 11, during the epilogue, Houtaro confirms that he can only imagine what kind of ending Hongou would have wanted ("souzou [想像] de shikanai ga" - literally "imagination is all we have"). Moreover,the story isn't primarily concerned with what happened to Hongou - certain information crucial to decyphering her situation - such as the poll results on the number of desired victims - was not revealed to the audience until the story was practically over. Also, see Episode 11 at 11:45, where Houtaro, in revealing his "deduction" about what happened to Hongou, admits at 15:45 that he has no evidence and is simply speculating.

The necessary information to solve either mystery was, by design, never set forth in the story. So focusing on whether Houtaro accurately figured out either Hongou's situation or her intended ending constitutes a gross misappreciation of the story. That is trying to make it something it's not. If I had to peg it down, I would slot this story under psychological thriller. The central conflict is between Irisu and Houtaro, and the narrative tension springs from Houtaro's mental processes as he slowly figures out Irisu's machinations. The author never intended for the so- called "mysteries" to be solved because the resulting uncertainty was his primary literary mechanism for generating psychological drama and tension within the story. That's actually pretty clever.

2. An important plot issue: Eru, Satoshi and Mayaka figured out that Houtaro had been lied to and manipulated by Irisu way ahead of Houtaro himself. That is what they were each gently trying to let him know in private to avoid further embarrassing him.

The lie: in Episode 8 at the 15:01 mark, when directly queried by Houtaro about whether Irisu intended to have the classics club write the ending to the rump movie, she replied "sasuga sona koto wa tanomou nai" (roughly translated as "I couldn't possibly ask such a thing of you" or "that would be asking too much of you"). She said it in front of all four of them. Irisu explained there was an ending but she needed help figuring out exactly what it was.

Fast forward to Episode 10. The movie has a nifty ending, but Eru, Satoshi and Mayaka are dead certain the ending could not have been Hongou's work. If Houngou didn't write it, then who else did? The three could not tell Houtaro directly that he unwitingly wrote the script, because that would tactlessly brand him a sucker to his face and implicate Irisu as a liar.

Mayaka was the most subtle, but in Episode 10 at 23:34, she pointedly asked Houtaro if he thought up the whole ending by himself (zenbu?). That question would make absolutely no sense unless she was trying to tell him something about the true source of the script.

Satoshi came closest to being blunt. In Episode 11 starting at about 4:39 - "Are ga Houtaro no an [案] nara, nanimo iwa nai yo. Kedo, Houngou senpai no an ite koto nara, boku mo chigau koto Iwazaru ienai" (very roughly "if you [Houtaro] claim it [the ending] as your own, there would be nothing for me to say. But to insist it was Hongou's idea is a lie" - the idiomatic reference to Iwazaru, the monkey that speaks no evil literally means "that is a lie that neither I nor Iwazaru would utter"). Satoshi goes on to say that if, after thinking over what Satoshi just told him, Houtaro remains convinced that the ending was Hongou's and not his own, Satoshi might accept it ("Houtaro ga shinzou koto omoeru n'da, boku wa sore de mo ii yo").

When Eru finally takes her turn with Houtaro starting at 5:24, she couches it in terms of her curiosity about Hongou, but her message is the same: Houngou did not write that ending. The unstated but inescapable conclusion: you (Houtaro) did.

Further proof that Houtaro's clubmates knew it was Irisu specifically that suckered him comes directly from the characters' own words. In Episode 10 at 7:50, Satoshi says he knows Houtaro is doing it for Irisu, and more importantly, later in the same episode at 9:00, Mayaka says pretty much the same thing, but her sly expression implies she detects something deeper about Houtaro's true motivaton in doing Irisu's bidding. When they see the finished movie at the end of the episode, it doesn't take a special gift them to figure out who coaxed Houtaro into crafting the movie's finale.

Still more evidence is found in Episode 11, beginning at 10:52. Orecki pulls out the Tarot book. At 11:07 he reads the description of the Empress and wonders why Satoshi & co. would assign it to Irisu as it does not match his image of her. He also sees the image of Strength as a fierce lion being controlled by a gentle woman and is vexed that Satoshi would apply that symbol to him. On the other hand, he finds that the Justice, Magician and Fool accurately fit Mayaka, Satoshi and Eru, respectively. So he wonders about this discrepancy - why do the tarot symbols for his three friends make sense to him, but not those assigned to himself and Irisu. It is at this point, at 12:20, that he has the flash of insight regarding a change of point of view ("mikata wo kaeru"). But what was he looking at from the wrong viewpoint (mikata - 見方 - literally, method of seeing)? It's none other than himself and Irisu. He realized he was not evaluating himself vis-a-vis Irisu objectively, so he decides to examine his relationship with Irisu from the vantage of his clubmates to see how it appears to them. Only then does he finally understand what they had been trying to tell him about what Irisu had done. The next day, he confronts Irisu.

This sequence of events goes a long way towards rationalizing the way the characters reacted and behaved towards each other, particularly Houtaro's fury and his clubmates' gingerly approach to handling him. There's an extra element of humiliation to Houtaro's deception because he, with the supposedly "special gift," was the last among his mates to grasp the fact of his own victimization. And this provides a neat ironic flourish to the psychological drama that should not be overlooked.

I'm open to an alternative explanation of what Houtaro's "change of viewpoint" refers to, but right now, this is the only interpretation that makes sense to me.

Wow, writing it out like this really works. I wish I'd thought of this sooner.
joeboygo is offline  
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