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Old 2013-08-04, 09:35   Link #21
Haiprbim
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I'm in disagreement with the first post's main idea.

The core reason is what if someone would want to create a point/suggestion about something, but that thread would already exists, it would only be locked because of the 1-year post idle?

Creating multiple threads with the same focus is not really wanted. Plus, requesting an unlock of a thread to share your opinion on the topic is just too much work and time to wait for the result to actually happen.

In the end, I find old-thread bumping an issue that is easier to clear up in the long term than unlocking the threads just to share one opinion/lock threads because they are expressing the same topic as an already-existing locked one.
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Old 2013-08-04, 10:18   Link #22
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haiprbim View Post
Creating multiple threads with the same focus is not really wanted.
Why not? In nearly all cases where an old thread is brought back from the dead it seems as if very few people note the time stamps. The majority begin to respond to the original posts (usually the first post, in some cases one of the first five or so). That original post may be outdated, yet the newer post is grouped into it just because the overall idea is similar.

Personally, I wish that we could apply something like this to the entire forum. If a thread hasn't been touched in a year, maybe two, then lock it. New discussions that take place within old threads cause many people to respond to the original posts, yet many of the original posters are either not active or are no longer following the thread. The discussion theme may be the same, but because of chronology and the shift in participants they are distinct conversations and it makes little sense to have them grouped together.
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Old 2013-08-04, 11:11   Link #23
Daniel E.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haiprbim View Post
I'm in disagreement with the first post's main idea.
The whole purpose of the suggestions section, is to provide specific help to a particular member.

Even if two people are asking for romance anime, their lists of already watched shows could be different, and a suggestion that works for one person may be pointless to another. There can also be small quirks between similar suggestions, such as "similar to this" or "with a character like that" additions.

When you post in any suggestion thread, you do it to help the thread starter, not the community as a whole.
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Old 2013-08-04, 12:14   Link #24
Haiprbim
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But you have missed the point that it is the thread starter's "job" to create the opening post/starting post on the way that the other members can work on.

From the feedback the creator gets, it is very wanted to update the first post regularly, for the new members that come into discussion to know where things currently stand.

Personally, I like your argument, Ledgem.
It is true that if a thread was dead for more than a year, the creator of it probably isn't active any more. Because of that being so, creating a new, more energetic thread would be wanted and optionally even needed. In short, you convinced me.

Also, Daniel, we are talking about a Suggestions section, not Recommendations section. Or did I get that wrong?
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Old 2013-08-04, 12:45   Link #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Why not? In nearly all cases where an old thread is brought back from the dead it seems as if very few people note the time stamps. The majority begin to respond to the original posts (usually the first post, in some cases one of the first five or so). That original post may be outdated, yet the newer post is grouped into it just because the overall idea is similar.

Personally, I wish that we could apply something like this to the entire forum. If a thread hasn't been touched in a year, maybe two, then lock it. New discussions that take place within old threads cause many people to respond to the original posts, yet many of the original posters are either not active or are no longer following the thread. The discussion theme may be the same, but because of chronology and the shift in participants they are distinct conversations and it makes little sense to have them grouped together.
I more or less agree with this.

I don't care about it a big deal, but I've never been a fan of how Anime Suki favors necro-posting over creating brand new threads, more or less for the reasons that you've just laid out Ledgem.

If a thread is inactive for a year or more, it automatically gets locked. This is an idea I would support on a forum-wide basis (maybe with the exception of episode threads, for fairly obvious reasons). At the very least, I think it would be helpful for the Suggestions thread for the reasons that both you and Daniel E. allude to.
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Old 2013-08-04, 14:05   Link #26
speedyexpress48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
If a thread is inactive for a year or more, it automatically gets locked. This is an idea I would support on a forum-wide basis (maybe with the exception of episode threads, for fairly obvious reasons). At the very least, I think it would be helpful for the Suggestions thread for the reasons that both you and Daniel E. allude to.
I would support it for some areas (definitely suggestions forum), but I would definitely not like to see that in the anime discussion forums due to the fact that the forum is setup with one thread per anime for the most part.
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Old 2013-08-04, 14:21   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedyexpress48 View Post
I would support it for some areas (definitely suggestions forum), but I would definitely not like to see that in the anime discussion forums due to the fact that the forum is setup with one thread per anime for the most part.
Good point on series discussions thread. I mean, if you only have one thread for an entire anime show, it doesn't make much sense to lock it.

But I think the "lock the thread after a year" could help in General Anime.
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Old 2013-08-04, 16:04   Link #28
Daniel E.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haiprbim View Post
But you have missed the point that it is the thread starter's "job" to create the opening post/starting post on the way that the other members can work on.
We provide guidelines for people asking and making suggestions, and I believe this get's the point across. Telling folks that it's their "job" to keep their threads updated is as ridiculous as telling sigmakers that it is their "job" to fill out all requests made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haiprbim View Post
From the feedback the creator gets, it is very wanted to update the first post regularly, for the new members that come into discussion to know where things currently stand.
No, that's just how you want the threads to work.

If other people want to use them as a reference, then they need to see it as a personal request that was once made, and not as something that will get regular updates just because they want it to.

@Triple_R, Ledgem:

** I am not totally against the idea of creating new threads instead of necroing old ones, but I would need to hear the reasoning for this each time a thread is made. Either on the first post, or as a private message sent to the staff. This doesn't mean we will always agree on the reasoning, but we will at least hear you out.

** My personal take on the matter. One that doesn't reflect the views of all staff members.
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Old 2013-08-04, 17:07   Link #29
Haiprbim
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If one is not serious about keeping the discussion on a thread in order and in one piece, why create a thread in the first place?

There are many out there that would take their time for the thread, and you might say that it is only how I see things, but I think that creating a thread is more than just shoot-and-leave.

Well, it doesn't matter.
That is the topic of its own, but let's keep to the main idea. Now, I cannot say I really disagree with it, nor find any bigger drawbacks since Ledgem has had a valid point over my argument a while back.

You have my support, because of other factors as well. One of them being to see if any of the suggestions actually take actions later on, AS forums-looking.
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Old 2013-08-04, 17:20   Link #30
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Like Daniel says, I think you have an unrealistic view of how many people use forums in general, and especially the Suggestions forum. Most people who ask for suggestions never do any research to see if there are existing threads and just start their own. Another common path includes people who do a Google search for anime suggestions, find a couple of relevant AS threads, never read any of them, and append a request to the bottom or make a suggestion that has often been made already. It's these people in particular who tend to bring old threads back from the dead, and in most cases the necromancy is not warranted.
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Old 2013-08-04, 17:25   Link #31
Daniel E.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haiprbim View Post
If one is not serious about keeping the discussion on a thread in order and in one piece, why create a thread in the first place?
Because threads in that section are not meant to be used as such.

Want to discuss a show? Then please use the corresponding thread, or create one if there isn't any.
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Old 2013-08-04, 17:25   Link #32
Haiprbim
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You have clearly misunderstood me there, Seiji.

Well, it doesn't matter.
I don't want this discussion to be yet another one who keeps going in circles with no productivity, just everyone trying to be smart in their own way and with that take their own, and everyone else's time away.

I have said that you have my support already for multiple reasons, so you can cut it there.
Also, as I requested with Daniel, do keep on topic. Especially if you have misunderstood something which I say that do not matter any more. I brought them up, I took them away, now please, keep on topic.

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Originally Posted by Daniel E. View Post
Because threads in that section are not meant to be used as such.

Want to discuss a show? Then please use the corresponding thread, or create one if there isn't any.
I was focusing especially and only on the Suggestions section, not any other.

Again, I asked you what you understood under the Suggestions section.
A Recommendation section, or a forums Suggestion section?

If we take this section for example.
It is used for suggestions/feedback and any kind of forums/website related issues.
Those are two very different kind of threads which you can create here, with the later one only requesting help and assistance of something already-existing, while the suggestions are quite complicated, at least AS forums looking.
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Old 2013-08-04, 17:41   Link #33
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haiprbim View Post
I was focusing especially and only on the Suggestions section, not any other.

Again, I asked you what you understood under the Suggestions section.
A Recommendation section, or a forums Suggestion section?
Not sure what you are trying to imply?
While the words "recommendation" or "suggestion" are not entirely the same, both of these are used in the suggestion forums.
People usually start suggesting some anime's/manga's/ games etc. and sometimes you see others recommending some of the suggestions.


In some occasions people start immediately with their recommendations like this rather obvious example:
I want to watch a darker anime
You should definitely try Puella Magi Madoka Magica
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Old 2013-08-04, 17:44   Link #34
Haiprbim
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Not sure what you are trying to imply?
While there is a difference between the words recommendation or suggestion, both are used in the suggestion forums.
People usually start suggesting some animes that they liked and sometimes you see others recommending some of the suggestions.
The word "Suggestions" takes quite a huge part when we are focusing and connecting it with the forums of any kind.

What my question was, which Suggestions section exactly does this thread focus on?
As I can see in the first message, the idea is meant specifically for the Suggestions section. My question is, which section exactly did he/she mean by that?
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Old 2013-08-04, 17:49   Link #35
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haiprbim View Post
The word "Suggestions" takes quite a huge part when we are focusing and connecting it with the forums of any kind.

What my question was, which Suggestions section exactly does this thread focus on?
As I can see in the first message, the idea is meant specifically for the Suggestions section. My question is, which section exactly did he/she mean by that?
Most likely the entire suggestion section
http://forums.animesuki.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15

Especially last year when occasionally people started necro posted in them. Including necro post(s) quoting something from several years ago
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Old 2013-08-05, 21:01   Link #36
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Most likely the entire suggestion section
http://forums.animesuki.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15

Especially last year when occasionally people started necro posted in them. Including necro post(s) quoting something from several years ago
People who necro post like that are generally frowned upon by the mods. We expect necro posts to add something new or relevant to the topic, even if the older posts might be outdated (which they usually aren't).

I realize the necro posting policy is counter to what most forums do, but it's nowhere near the problem people make it out to be. Excusing some idiots and the occasional "doh, didn't realize", necro posting is rarely an issue. It seems to mainly afflict Suggestions, and usually from newer posters who don't understand or care about the rules.
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Old 2013-08-05, 21:46   Link #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
People who necro post like that are generally frowned upon by the mods.
People who necro post tend to just want to jumpstart a thread, so many put minimal effort in since they just want to see the pre-existing topic take off again. However, if somebody starts a new thread they're likely to put at least some real thought and consideration into it since that OP has to stand up well on its own, it's not just a glorified bumping of a thread.

This is part of the reason why I'm inclined to think it's better to let old, long-inactive threads die when they're not devoted to a particular anime show, manga, light novel, anime character, or anime episode. In other words, the more generalized forums like General Anime and General Chat would benefit from this different approach I think. The Suggestions subforum almost certainly would.


Quote:
I realize the necro posting policy is counter to what most forums do,
Yes, and there are reasons why most forums don't do things this way.


Quote:
but it's nowhere near the problem people make it out to be.
What problem would be caused by allowing old, long-inactive threads to die out? Sparing people the hassle of having to search through Anime Suki's archives on the off-chance they might start a thread for a topic that was talked about a little bit over a year ago?

I understand that Anime Suki has a very ironclad policy of "one topic, one thread". But if you have older threads on a topic locked and "retired", then the newer thread for that topic becomes the thread for that topic, hence adhering to the "one topic, one thread" policy, at least in principle if not in letter.

With anime shows, AS goes through a lifespan process of "Current Series, Older Series, Retired". I'm not sure why a similar process couldn't be used for threads.
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Old 2013-08-05, 23:33   Link #38
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
However, if somebody starts a new thread they're likely to put at least some real thought and consideration into it since that OP has to stand up well on its own, it's not just a glorified bumping of a thread.
This "optimism" does not reflect my experience on this site. Many threads that people create are poorly-defined, representing little more than a passing stray thought, and could often have been answered or addressed by doing a simple search either on the Forum or on any search engine. We still spend a fair bit of time culling such poor threads or merging them into existing ones (or eliminating them), even though the occurrences are reduced after years of enforcing the current policy. So if you think "most new threads are good!", it's partly because we've been actively working to keep it that way as much as possible. We still sometimes do allow some "poor" threads if we think or notice that other posters will manage or have managed to make something good out of it, but this is not the general behaviour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Yes, and there are reasons why most forums don't do things this way.
Because the sorts of discussions they host are different, and tend to be more time-based than subject-oriented.

The primary emphasis of discussion on this site is around anime series (and also manga, light novels, and related things). And in such cases we always want people to use the existing threads rather than create new ones. And you may think "well that should be obvious", but again you only have to look back to the early days of this forum to see countless duplicate threads about shows that already had a thread, and with very little distinction or reason for creating a new thread (not to mention horrible, non-descriptive topic titles). And then when people perform a search for said show, they're presented with a deluge of options rather than finding the one right place.

Because "one topic, one thread" is the general principle we want people to follow for the primary discussion topics, it makes the most sense to apply this everywhere on the site so that people get into the habit of searching first rather than just blindly creating new threads. And in the vast majority of cases, this works out very well. Consistency is important to encouraging certain patterns of behaviour and discouraging others.

Anime recommendations/suggestions are a particular case because they are more time-based, and in response to the specific requirements outlined by the requester at the point in time when they make the request. Replying to said requests a long time later doesn't make very much sense. So in that case, it makes sense to lock the old threads once the request has either a) been fulfilled, or b) has expired/exceeded its expected life span (because the criteria of the original request will no longer apply).

But even in the case of the Suggestions forum, it would be preferable for the submitter to perform a search first, since many of the requests are repetitive and patterned. This is why we also discussed before about creating a sticky thread for some of the most common genre requests, which will hopefully reduce the duplicates and show more value to the time of those providing suggestions.

Most of the discussion in the General Anime and General Chat forums are a mix between subject-based and time-oriented, so in practice there are some threads that naturally tend to die out over time (which is fine), and some that tend to get bumped again every once in a while (which is also fine). You get the odd goof who Google-searched something and then replies to a post from seven-years-back when it totally makes no sense, but that doesn't happen that frequently. Certainly, I don't think it happens frequently enough to warrant a change in the overall "one topic, one thread" policy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
With anime shows, AS goes through a lifespan process of "Current Series, Older Series, Retired". I'm not sure why a similar process couldn't be used for threads.
This is not comparable, because even in those cases there remains one single open thread for the topic. It just moves from one section to another. For sub-forums it branches out into more threads, but then re-collapses in the end back to a single thread, to keep what little discussion remains into one place rather than having people create new threads about it. So even "retired" doesn't really mean what you're implying it would mean in this case (i.e. that a topic dies and is allowed to be reborn in a new thread). This is a pattern that we employ very rarely on the site, because a topic being locked generally means "don't create another one like it, because the first was locked for a reason". People who create a duplicate thread when the first was locked will often be banned for violating moderator guidelines. So, again, consistency is valuable here.


Anyway, at the end of the day, "one topic, one thread" is one of the features of this site that keeps it organized and makes it distinct from other anime-related discussion sites on the Internet. I don't see any reason to deviate from this design trait except in the specific cases where it doesn't apply (i.e. timely personal recommendation requests). Other sites can use their own organizational patterns, which will have their own benefits and drawbacks.
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Old 2013-08-06, 01:25   Link #39
Haiprbim
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Anyway, at the end of the day, "one topic, one thread" is one of the features of this site that keeps it organized and makes it distinct from other anime-related discussion sites on the Internet.
And that was my main input on this thread, which was quite heavily rejected, so I dropped it.

What mainly convinced me otherwise was Ledgem's point that those kind of threads are different.
They indeed are, but they are the only type that is not the kind who would want a discussion to go on, so I do not see why adjusting the rules would be necessary if only one type of threads is like that.

To get to the point, the issue here seems to be what a thread's point should be.
At the Suggestions section, threads are a bit different and ask for only one-time advice which get re-created later, with maybe a bit different spice, as we hear through this discussion.

Similar goes for the Tech Support section, but there, people can look back for similar issues and learn from them, even though the threads are just requesting a one-time help for one user.

So, summing things up, I think the main issue with the Suggestions section is whether people should create threads in order to get suggestions, or take a different approach.
We always have to note that if the threads are of different types (which usually isn't good), rules have to be adjusted, or the thread-creating with certain topics and focuses changed.
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