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Old 2013-03-15, 07:56   Link #141
Sunder the Gold
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Silver Crow is actually a very weak hand-to-hand combatant. He got in some good hits against Cyan Pile, but then Takumu figured him out and dominated the fight. It was only when Crow started to fly (with the advantage of the wide-open sky) that Crow could possibly win.

Crow dominated Taker in a fist-fight because Taker was even weaker in hand-to-hand combat.

Blue avatars like Pile and Sky Raker are *monsters* in direct, close-range engagement. That's what being Blue is all about. And Pile should likewise dominate Raker in places where she doesn't have room to make full use of her mobility advantage.

Likewise, Crow's mobility advantage is balanced by being weaker in a punch-out brawl. His Metal color gives him weaknesses as well as resistances, too.
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Old 2013-03-15, 10:41   Link #142
Shiyumi
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Gold, read my edit(last post) on page 7 and give your thought.
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Old 2013-03-15, 13:22   Link #143
Sunder the Gold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
Avatar colours are not "turning (sic) from purple to black", they just stay in whatever colour they are, as far as we know.

Spoiler for V13 implication of Black Vise:


(Gold, it's probably a good spoiler since it only says that [something] exists, not what this [something] can do.)
Yeah, I'd heard that one before somewhere around here. And yeah, it's a spoiler I like to know.

Agreed on all points regarding colors.

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V10 side story 'Versus' had a dialogue between Haruyuki and KYH discussing black avatars, but even that didn;t come to any definitive conclusion. So I say, leave it aside for the best, or you could interrogate the author for an explanation.
Oh? I need to check that out afterall.
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Old 2013-03-15, 13:52   Link #144
Sunder the Gold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiyumi View Post
For black we have two sample avatars, their shapes are so peculiar like they want to reject the world at much as they can. For Vise, it was evident when Crow fought against his IS "It was «isolation». An absolute detachment that couldn’t consider the state of people’s hearts at all.". For Lotus, she clearly isolate type and have trouble to make friend or intimated interact with other people.
There is also Aqua Current, who is officially Black, since her pure water body is completely without color. Current is another person who seems to reject relationships or the world in general, which is reflected in a body made of water with absolutely no chemical impurities. Also, an IS Skill that forces others to forget her existence.

But as Scarlet Rain supposes, Vise might not be pure Black, or at least not originally. There might be a way to change or disguise Colors.

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For white we have Ivory Tower. His his voice, his action is like a salary man that do his works like a robot and his skill is complete conceal his present. For White Cosmos, I call describe her as 'brilliant vanity' because from what we know about her, she seem resemble the characters from other stories I read.
Sounds like characters who reject other people just as much as our Black examples.


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tusjecht, Flight is a Limit not Special Skill. The differences between them were Limit can be learn through battle and have no need for voice command(the same for Normal Skill). Crow learn Flight in battle and the condition probably was 'a powerful desire for the sky'. But that was a very special situation that push him over his limit
Are you thinking that Silver Crow wasn't originally designed to fly? Because that simply isn't true. Aviation is not some ability that was suddenly added to a complete Duel Avatar; it is the power the avatar was always meant to use, in response to Haruyuki's nightmare and his desire to fly high and away from his troubles, to transcend his circumstances and reach something better.

It may have been hidden or locked for some reason, but it was always there.


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Also can we agree on the part that Taker's DC wasn't a overpower move that break the game rule
He really kind of does. While a form of balance exists, in that he has to start with basically nothing and struggle more than other Burst Linkers to get to his maximum potential, once he's finally there, he's more powerful than any other avatar of the same level, and there's practically no way to reset him to his original level of strength. You can't steal back his stolen powers or force him to let them go, and there's no time limit. Once he's at the top, he stays there until permanently retired.

Worse, he cripples other avatars, indefinitely depriving them of their full potentials. Combined with his own power-up, no rematch against him can ever start fresh. It's like starting a new duel already missing 50% of your HP, against an opponent who is given 50% more HP.


Oh, and before I forget:

Tus, only the tentacles regenerated. It was an Enhanced Armament, and so its regeneration was just a self-repair function. It would not have helped Taker heal any other damage... otherwise, what did he need Lime Bell for?
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Old 2013-03-15, 20:23   Link #145
Sunder the Gold
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I have a question:

Looking at the light novel illustrations, there are two pictures of the Infinity and the Destiny, with plaques.

The plaques both show the constellation of the Little (or Big?) Dipper, also known as Ursa Minor (or Major). Each plaque highlights a different star. The constellation is made up of seven stars, which is the exact number of Sacred Arcs.

Can anyone guess what significance the constellation has to the Seven Sacred Arcs, or offer any information on a possible meaning?
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Old 2013-03-15, 20:47   Link #146
Shiyumi
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Quote:
Are you thinking that Silver Crow wasn't originally designed to fly? Because that simply isn't true. Aviation is not some ability that was suddenly added to a complete Duel Avatar; it is the power the avatar was always meant to use, in response to Haruyuki's nightmare and his desire to fly high and away from his troubles, to transcend his circumstances and reach something better.
You misunderstand what I said.

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It may have been hidden or locked for some reason, but it was always there.
That what I mean. Normal Skill and Limit Skill can be learn from battle(benefit that it won't cost you Bonus Point). When Lv up it will automatic unlock but now it will cost Bonus Point to learn. If Crow didn't learn Flight during battle, it will unlock when he Lv up to Lv2.
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Old 2013-03-15, 21:09   Link #147
Sunder the Gold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiyumi View Post
When Lv up it will automatic unlock but now it will cost Bonus Point to learn.
What do you have to back this idea up? Why would the system punish Silver Crow for not discovering his own powers before leveling up, by taking away some of his potential upgrades?
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Old 2013-03-16, 04:02   Link #148
Shiyumi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
What do you have to back this idea up? Why would the system punish Silver Crow for not discovering his own powers before leveling up, by taking away some of his potential upgrades?
You have it backward.It was mean as a bonus for player: "Learning from battle will not cost you Bonus Point". To back up my statement, let introduce our guest <<Ash Roller>>. His Limit Skill "Vertical Climb" is the same type with Flight, and this how he learned it:

“I was super stumped on what to use the level up bonus on, it had special attack, movement speed up, and wall-climbing. Ah, I made the ultra ~ correct ~ choice ~”

Quote:
I have a question:

Looking at the light novel illustrations, there are two pictures of the Infinity and the Destiny, with plaques.

The plaques both show the constellation of the Little (or Big?) Dipper, also known as Ursa Minor (or Major). Each plaque highlights a different star. The constellation is made up of seven stars, which is the exact number of Sacred Arcs.

Can anyone guess what significance the constellation has to the Seven Sacred Arcs, or offer any information on a possible meaning?
Seven Sacred Arcs were based on this constellation. That picture was translated on Baka-tsuki.
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Old 2013-03-16, 05:41   Link #149
Sunder the Gold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiyumi View Post
You have it backward. It was mean as a bonus for player: "Learning from battle will not cost you Bonus Point".
That would violate the principle of "equal level, equal potential." There would be many Duel Avatars going around that were simply weaker than others, and many (especially Children with the benefit of Parent guidance) that were more powerful than others.

If this were true, then Kuroyukihime and Takumu would have been EXTREMELY insistent that Haruyuki attempt to discover anything and everything about Silver Crow before moving on to Level 2.

But no one ever mentions this as a method by which one avatar can be stronger than another, or as a trap to beware.


Quote:
To back up my statement, let introduce our guest <<Ash Roller>>. His Limit Skill "Vertical Climb" is the same type with Flight
It is a Limit Skill, but that doesn't make it the same.

Flight was the power around which Silver Crow was fully designed. For Ash Roller, it was the Enhanced Armament: Night Rocker.

Vertical Climb was unnecessary for the Night Rocker. It was simply a bonus; a bonus that would improve the overall potential of Ash Roller.

It doesn't necessarily follow that just because SOME Limit Skills can be learned rather than bought, that all Limit Skills relate to an avatar's potential in the same way.

If Haruyuki had not discovered Silver Crow's hidden ability, I'm sure that he could have unlocked it later without needing to buy it with a bonus. (Indeed, potential bonuses might even revealed its existence, unless the relevant bonuses remain hidden as well.)


Since Duel Avatars only improve a little from Leveling Up (outside of the expansion of their bonus choice), I'm sure any hidden Limit Skills must be Level 1. That is, an avatar doesn't gain any more hidden powers to unlock.

So after the avatar is created, there may be hidden Limit Skills, but it doesn't gain any more of them unless the player chooses them with bonuses. Since the player deliberately chooses them, these abilities are not hidden.

At the same time, the avatar doesn't LOSE any potential if the avatar levels up before the hidden skills are revealed. They remain part of the avatar; they are already there, they don't need to be bought. They simply need to be found.

I feel confident, now, that Dusk Taker WAS created with some kind of Limit Ability that Noumi somehow, for some reason, never learned. Since Limit Abilities would offer a way to spend his SP, an avatar with one of those doesn't technically need a Special Move.

Heck, Silver Crow's Special Move is significantly less impressive than his Limit Ability; his Aviation Punch and Kick are more useful than Headbutt.

Noumi COULD have unlocked his hidden power after getting Demonic Commandeer, but I would guess that he was fully satisfied with DC and didn't think to look for any other power.

He didn't realize that he must have some other power because his brother/Parent didn't really teach him how avatar potential worked, and it was only after he bought DC that the Research Society found him. With a power like DC, it would have been easy for them to mistakenly conclude that there wasn't any other hidden depths to his avatar.


The interesting puzzle now becomes: What kind of Passive or Limit Ability could Dusk Taker possible have had, to use up so much of his avatar's potential in the way of Aviation and the Night Rocker?

What sort of power would make sense for an avatar which could gain a Special Move like Demonic Commandeer?

(Assuming that DC started out much more humbly. Dusk Taker didn't destroy his brother until he reached at least Level 4 and ambushed him in the Unlimited Neutral Field, which meant two other bonuses he could have -- and probably did -- sink into upgrading Demonic Commandeer. A Level 2-to-4 power.)

(Also assuming that he got DC as early as Level 2. Perhaps he got the whole power at Level 4, and gained multiple levels through sheer hardwork, while getting only Level 5 through blackmail? Or was he Level 4 when he met Haru, I forget.)


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Seven Sacred Arcs were based on this constellation.
I said that, didn't I? I said that.

I asked if there was any known reason for that association. Or any theories.
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Old 2013-03-16, 07:29   Link #150
Tusjecht
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Unrelated note: Gold, you may want to merge your posts. A suggestion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiyumi View Post
But that's no fun, so here I go 'again'
For black we have two sample avatars, their shapes are so peculiar like they want to reject the world at much as they can. For Vise, it was evident when Crow fought against his IS "It was «isolation». An absolute detachment that couldn’t consider the state of people’s hearts at all.". For Lotus, she clearly isolate type and have trouble to make friend or intimated interact with other people.
For white we have Ivory Tower. His his voice, his action is like a salary man that do his works like a robot and his skill is complete conceal his present. For White Cosmos, I call describe her as 'brilliant vanity' because from what we know about her, she seem resemble the characters from other stories I read.
Since you really want to discuss B&W, I'll say this: Lotus is definitely the epitome of "rejecting all other." Four sword limbs that cannot be touched without losing your fingers and a couple of limbs, pure black that refuses to be dyed any colour, it's safe to say that from this alone, Black represents "isolationism."

I tend to regard Vise with less credibility, however. Not only am I inclined to believe he found a way to change his colour (and possibly fake another avatar's shape), his avatar doesn't support the idea of "isolationism." Shiyumi, simply quoting the state of Vise' mind when using IS does not necessarily mean that is equal to his nature! Counter-example: Crow activates Laser Sword by thinking "I can be fast," but his nature is to fly away from everything!

Your point on Cosmos is really weak, I'm sorry. That she 'resembles' characters from other stories you've read only means you're assuming a certain stereotype about her, and that itself is not a valid hypothesis in my book. I'd give the author the benefit of doubt first that he has a solid backstory for Cosmos and not a cookie-cutter villain formulae.

I don't even know where to begin on Tower, because he's a reference; Ivory Tower and Black Vise are cards from Magic: The Gathering! Saying he's businesslike is one thing, I'm sure I'd behave formally too if I was at a gathering of Kings more than able to kill me for a single slip of the tongue. We have too little information about White avatars to properly speculate, really. And you're speculating heavily based on a single ability name: Under Cover. That itself undermines the credibility of the hypothesis.

No, I will not accept Cosmos from the PSP game. An interview (LN thread IIRC) confirmed that wasn't the original design, but author might just accept it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiyumi View Post
tusjecht, Flight is a Limit not Special Skill. The differences between them were Limit can be learn through battle and have no need for voice command(the same for Normal Skill). Crow learn Flight in battle and the condition probably was 'a powerful desire for the sky'. But that was a very special situation that push him over his limit. If he just dueled normally, he will only learn it when he level up. Also, regardless type, a skill learn from level up will cost Bonus Point. And here was the answer for Taker, he probably had Normal or Limit skill but unable to learn it. When it unlock from level up he already got his DC so he can't spare Bonus Point to learn them.
Where the heck did Bonus Points come from? Sorry to hit the brakes, but with BPs, Limit, and a whole other bunch of terms you're confusing me. I know you're referring from the novel illustrations but bear in mind the probability of inconsistent and inaccurate translations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Tus, only the tentacles regenerated. It was an Enhanced Armament, and so its regeneration was just a self-repair function. It would not have helped Taker heal any other damage... otherwise, what did he need Lime Bell for?
That's what I meant too, but I slipped in the accuracy of the meaning; Regen would indeed only work on the tentacles, I meant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
I have a question:

Looking at the light novel illustrations, there are two pictures of the Infinity and the Destiny, with plaques.

The plaques both show the constellation of the Little (or Big?) Dipper, also known as Ursa Minor (or Major). Each plaque highlights a different star. The constellation is made up of seven stars, which is the exact number of Sacred Arcs.

Can anyone guess what significance the constellation has to the Seven Sacred Arcs, or offer any information on a possible meaning?
I reviewd V7 and searched Wikipedia and a couple other sites for the Big Dipper's stars; the only connection seems to be the consistent "Star" theme the author has been using in both SAO and AW, especially for high-level skills and equipment. Here in AW the allusion appears focused on Legion names and equipment, and...beyond that there's no apparent connection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiyumi View Post
You have it backward.It was mean as a bonus for player: "Learning from battle will not cost you Bonus Point". To back up my statement, let introduce our guest <<Ash Roller>>. His Limit Skill "Vertical Climb" is the same type with Flight, and this how he learned it:

“I was super stumped on what to use the level up bonus on, it had special attack, movement speed up, and wall-climbing. Ah, I made the ultra ~ correct ~ choice ~”
Again, where did Bonus Points come from. There are skills that are automatically learnt upon levelling up, and that leaves a choice between moves or upgrades - that's probably what you mean. An example of the former might be something like "Revive By Compassion", a skill that has no use outside the UNF, and Wall Climb might be an example of the latter - albeit boosting the bike's capabilities to climb walls, not simply an extra move in itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
That would violate the principle of "equal level, equal potential." There would be many Duel Avatars going around that were simply weaker than others, and many (especially Children with the benefit of Parent guidance) that were more powerful than others.

If this were true, then Kuroyukihime and Takumu would have been EXTREMELY insistent that Haruyuki attempt to discover anything and everything about Silver Crow before moving on to Level 2.

But no one ever mentions this as a method by which one avatar can be stronger than another, or as a trap to beware.
We seemed to have missed that Shiyumi assumes potential means the same thing everywhere. Just to distinguish for the benefit of doubt:

-There is Dusk Taker's potential, which lies in DC and possibly other theft-related moves. This potential also refers to power contained in an Armament, eg. Cyan Pile's Pile Driver has most of his combat potential.

-Then there is the sum potential of the avatar's combat ability, how well it can function as a whole when being proficiently controlled. This is what we're getting at when we say Taker breaks the rules; by stealing other armaments and Crow's wings, his summation potential is twice that of a normal avatar (Flight + Long-range firepower on him before his last fight). Hence, he could engineer his BP (Burst Point) farming plan to hunt Lotus from safety.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
He didn't realize that he must have some other power because his brother/Parent didn't really teach him how avatar potential worked, and it was only after he bought DC that the Research Society found him. With a power like DC, it would have been easy for them to mistakenly conclude that there wasn't any other hidden depths to his avatar.

The interesting puzzle now becomes: What kind of Passive or Limit Ability could Dusk Taker possible have had, to use up so much of his avatar's potential in the way of Aviation and the Night Rocker?

What sort of power would make sense for an avatar which could gain a Special Move like Demonic Commandeer?

(Assuming that DC started out much more humbly. Dusk Taker didn't destroy his brother until he reached at least Level 4 and ambushed him in the Unlimited Neutral Field, which meant two other bonuses he could have -- and probably did -- sink into upgrading Demonic Commandeer. A Level 2-to-4 power.)

(Also assuming that he got DC as early as Level 2. Perhaps he got the whole power at Level 4, and gained multiple levels through sheer hardwork, while getting only Level 5 through blackmail? Or was he Level 4 when he met Haru, I forget.)
Other than the Faker theory in the Fanfiction thread, I don't know what else..

If I have this right: you're saying, it's like as if Crow chose Rapid Knuckle as his bonus instead, and poured in enough bonuses for it to become something much more powerful, is that what you're saying?

Because other than that, I don't think Dusk Taker was created other than the purpose of having an NTR antagonist to add to the mix, for it to be so flawed in conception and having glaring inconsistencies. At least Blood Leopard was somewhat logical (and backed up by the bull-headed Yellow Legionnaire in the anime).
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Old 2013-03-16, 09:43   Link #151
Sunder the Gold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
I reviewd V7 and searched Wikipedia and a couple other sites for the Big Dipper's stars; the only connection seems to be the consistent "Star" theme the author has been using in both SAO and AW, especially for high-level skills and equipment. Here in AW the allusion appears focused on Legion names and equipment, and...beyond that there's no apparent connection.
You know, I knew that each of the great legions' names were star-related, but I never once made the connection that they were ALL star-related.

With (and possibly because of) the exception of Great Wall. I don't see how that's astronomical.

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Since you really want to discuss B&W, I'll say this: Lotus is definitely the epitome of "rejecting all other." Four sword limbs that cannot be touched without losing your fingers and a couple of limbs, pure black that refuses to be dyed any colour, it's safe to say that from this alone, Black represents "isolationism."
I agree that this theory seems very feasible, and repeat that it matches with Aqua Current. Someone who wants to hide as many aspects of his or her self as possible from others, and rejects any "impurities" from her featureless, near-formless self.

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I tend to regard Vise with less credibility, however. Not only am I inclined to believe he found a way to change his colour (and possibly fake another avatar's shape), his avatar doesn't support the idea of "isolationism."
I wouldn't go so far as the idea that he changed his shape, since his form of panels is directly related to the idea of "vise".

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Shiyumi, simply quoting the state of Vise' mind when using IS does not necessarily mean that is equal to his nature! Counter-example: Crow activates Laser Sword by thinking "I can be fast," but his nature is to fly away from everything!
Haruyuki's idea of "fly" is bound up in the idea of "speed". He threw his whole heart into that virtual squashball game, attaining greater and greater speeds.

To Haruyuki, flying is part of going faster, and flying fast is the same as flying high, and flying high is the same as "transcending". There's also a strong element of "escape" rather than "self-improvement", as he wanted to escape his physical and social circumstances.

Pard, on the other hand, may have conflated her idea of "speed" with "groundspeed". Rather than dreaming of flight, she may have dreamed of speeding along the ground like a motorcycle or great cat. It's possible that, unlike Haruyuki, she desired self-improvement rather than escape.

Different people view similar concepts through different metaphors. Takumu's metaphor for revenge was "stabbing-thrust". If he had dreamed instead of defeating his tormentors in fair matches through superior skill and speed, he probably would not have gotten his Pile-Driver, but instead the Cyan Blade, which represents his love for and dedication to kendo, and his refusal to give up in the face of bullying.

Sky Raker was born of two wishes: The wish to reach the stars, and the wish for legs that worked. So the avatar has powerful legs, capable of great speed and jumps, and also a rocket pack that can take its owner high into the sky. Perhaps if she was born with working legs and didn't strongly desire something she didn't have, her avatar would have been more completely focused on the rocket pack.

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Where the heck did Bonus Points come from?
There are a lot of terms to keep straight, so I just assumed he meant "Level Up Bonus choices" and got it mixed up with terms from other games. Brain Burst's rules are more than a bit unique.

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We seemed to have missed that Shiyumi assumes potential means the same thing everywhere. Just to distinguish for the benefit of doubt:
To summarize further:

Dusk Taker has two different potentials: The same potential that everyone else has, in regards to the sum of his personal abilities.

And the potential he can attain by stealing the maximum amount of other people's potential. He has a limit to the potential he can steal, but by grabbing as much as possible, his effective potential is greater than anyone else's of the same level.

Which is made more pronounced by the fact that his victims have LOST potential, which gives him an even greater advantage against them in re-matches.


One can also say that all avatars have two potentials: Their current potential, which is equal to that of every other avatar of the same level. And their future potential at different levels, which is still equal to other avatars of the same levels.


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If I have this right: you're saying, it's like as if Crow chose Rapid Knuckle as his bonus instead, and poured in enough bonuses for it to become something much more powerful, is that what you're saying?
Yes. It's as if Crow had never discovered Flight or started with Headbutt, but instead bought a Special Move upon leveling up and then kept upgrading that new Special Move.

So, at Level 4-5, it would be a Silver Crow who was a nigh-untouchable hit-and-run pugilist. Still very weak against other avatars of the same level, just as Dusk Taker was nearly driven to use Incarnate Skills to defeat Silver Crow once he started flying.

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Because other than that, I don't think Dusk Taker was created other than the purpose of having an NTR antagonist to add to the mix, for it to be so flawed in conception and having glaring inconsistencies.
But my theory seems sound, and would explain away some of the inconsistencies. That said, I don't think your idea couldn't be exactly right.

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At least Blood Leopard was somewhat logical (and backed up by the bull-headed Yellow Legionnaire in the anime).
The bull might have been a goof-up, like having Ivory Tower at the meeting where Red Rider died.
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Old 2013-03-16, 11:16   Link #152
Shiyumi
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[QUOTE]That would violate the principle of "equal level, equal potential." There would be many Duel Avatars going around that were simply weaker than others, and many (especially Children with the benefit of Parent guidance) that were more powerful than others./QUOTE]

That was normal, just because you have same potential doesn't mean you know how or can you full of them.

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It is a Limit Skill, but that doesn't make it the same.

Flight was the power around which Silver Crow was fully designed. For Ash Roller, it was the Enhanced Armament: Night Rocker.

Vertical Climb was unnecessary for the Night Rocker. It was simply a bonus; a bonus that would improve the overall potential of Ash Roller.

It doesn't necessarily follow that just because SOME Limit Skills can be learned rather than bought, that all Limit Skills relate to an avatar's potential in the same way.

If Haruyuki had not discovered Silver Crow's hidden ability, I'm sure that he could have unlocked it later without needing to buy it with a bonus. (Indeed, potential bonuses might even revealed its existence, unless the relevant bonuses remain hidden as well.)
Gold, when I say unlock I mean that skill will appear in avatar's skill list and the player will chose the skill he want to learn by add Bonus Point to that skill(same with how Roller chose Vertical Climb). And I never said anything like 'buy it with a bonus'. Bonus Point is the points you got when level up(the term was use is 'level up bonus'), you can use them adding to whatever attribute of avatar you want to strengthen not just limit to skill. Also, all Roller's potential lie in Night Rocker, same with Flight to Crow. In Crow's case, he add the points direct to Flight. In Roller's case, he add the points indirect to Night Rocker through the skill option since the bike was his everything(Roller without bike much worse than Crow without wings). The avatar's parameter and skill upgrade pretty systematic, you don't need to complicated it.

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Heck, Silver Crow's Special Move is significantly less impressive than his Limit Ability; his Aviation Punch and Kick are more useful than Headbutt.
Actually, Aviation Headbutt is his strongest move. It's just that skill make it hard to homing and will consume more SP.

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Noumi COULD have unlocked his hidden power after getting Demonic Commandeer, but I would guess that he was fully satisfied with DC and didn't think to look for any other power.

The interesting puzzle now becomes: What kind of Passive or Limit Ability could Dusk Taker possible have had, to use up so much of his avatar's potential in the way of Aviation and the Night Rocker?

What sort of power would make sense for an avatar which could gain a Special Move like Demonic Commandeer?
Sorry I didn't make it clear, Normal and Limit are Passive Skill(don't need voice command, can learn through battle), Special is Active Skill(need voice command, only learn from level up). He had to chose, either concentrate on DC or share Bonus Point to learn and level up other skill(probably an attack skill or a temporary stealing move that work like DC, with his character it was oblivious what happened). That is what make the game balance, let assume he learn X skill and DC, and level both of them then he probably can't steal Flight or he will need to delete other weapon to do so.

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(Also assuming that he got DC as early as Level 2. Perhaps he got the whole power at Level 4, and gained multiple levels through sheer hardwork, while getting only Level 5 through blackmail? Or was he Level 4 when he met Haru, I forget.)
He was Lv5. Its not that he got the whole power, but DC's storage get bigger with adding Bonus Point each time he level up(like how Citrol Call can rewind time further)

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I asked if there was any known reason for that association. Or any theories.
Game designer think it was a good ideal(probably).

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Where the heck did Bonus Points come from? Sorry to hit the brakes, but with BPs, Limit, and a whole other bunch of terms you're confusing me. I know you're referring from the novel illustrations but bear in mind the probability of inconsistent and inaccurate translations.
It's from the novel
+Lotus advice Crow concentrate on his Flight (and his speed?)(somewhere between vol1 and vol2)
+Roller mention it on his second fight with Crow "I was super stumped on what to use the level up bonus on, it had special attack, movement speed up, and wall-climbing. Ah, I made the ultra ~ correct ~ choice ~"
+Rain "I heard that «Scarlet Rain» put all of her level up bonuses into enhancing her long range firepower."
+Edge advise Lotus and other Element how to develop their avatars(side novel)
not just the illustration(and I was sure it's correct too). tusjecht, you should have more faith in me.

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If I have this right: you're saying, it's like as if Crow chose Rapid Knuckle as his bonus instead, and poured in enough bonuses for it to become something much more powerful, is that what you're saying?
That's about right. But if an avatar ignore his main potential it rather hard to get stronger. Right now, Crow only upgrade his Flight which prolong his flight time(cost fewer SP), but it can turn out like this:
Crow learned Fight(either like in the novel or when he up to Lv2) and after use Bonus Point to upgrade Punch or Kick or both(prefer Kick). You have seen how powerful his Aviation Kick was without any upgrade. With the cost of his flight time(or something interested in future) he will get ultimate finish move Super Meteor Emperor Falcon Kick(guess it will cost a lot more SP also).

On last point, Taker only said "I finally obtained my first special technique in this avatar that didn’t possess any significant power". If he only had Punch, Kick, Headbutt as Normal or Limit Skill, it still count as 'didn’t possess any significant power' right(he still have a Limit Skill unlearn, an attack skill or a temporary stealing move that work like DC)

Last edited by Shiyumi; 2013-03-16 at 12:18.
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Old 2013-03-16, 14:04   Link #153
Sunder the Gold
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Originally Posted by Shiyumi View Post
That was normal, just because you have same potential doesn't mean you know how or can you full of them.
Equal potential doesn't mean "you COULD have been as powerful." It means you ARE just as powerful, if only in different ways.

Much as I bemoan Takumu picking Spiral Gravity Driver instead of focusing on one of his pre-existing abilities, SGD doesn't suck because Takumu decided to branch out instead of specializing.

It sucks because the author goofed in making up a Special Attack that's less useful than Takumu's normal attack.


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Gold, when I say unlock I mean that skill will appear in avatar's skill list and the player will chose the skill he want to learn by add Bonus Point to that skill(same with how Roller chose Vertical Climb).
So you're saying that if Silver Crow had reached Level 2 without discovering flight, his bonus choices would have revealed his flying power (by offering upgrades to flight), or he would have otherwise gotten his choice of a bonus AND the system would finally show Aviation in his status screen?


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Game designer think it was a good ideal(probably).
That's just painfully obvious, isn't it? It's clear that he wouldn't have done it if it seemed like a BAD idea.


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It's from the novel
Except they're not called points! That's the problem we're having with you. They're called bonuses, but there are so few of them that there's no reason to call them "points"!

Duel Avatars can only ever get 8 bonuses, and few ever level up enough to get more than 3 bonuses. Also, almost no one stores these bonuses for later; they quickly choose an option.

There are no Burst Points spent to gain options or to select an option, either; nor to upgrade an option after it's chosen. Burst Points can only be spent to increase your Level, and you get a Bonus Choice only for Leveling Up.

Burst Points are called such because you start with as many as 100, you can have as many as... well, easily a thousand or more in the case of Kings. There are just so many stored up all at once that of course you would call them "points".

It's the difference between pennies (or one-yen coins) and gold bricks. You don't count the bricks in terms of pennies, you count them like bricks.
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Old 2013-03-16, 14:19   Link #154
Tusjecht
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A quick reply, because i'm using my phone. Gold, I'll properly reply you when I get my hands on a proper computer...

Shiyumi, like Gold said; the "bonus point" are't points you can invest in one or even multiple new skills/moves, it's a choice you can make upon spending Burst Points and levelling up.

So when they say for example, Rain "poured all her bonuses into Long-range firepower", what they mean precisely, is that Rain chose to upgrade her armament's guns each time she levelled up, for a total of eight times. That.

Notice how other characters never mention points instead and rather say that it's the choice/decision they made.

And while it's true that you spend Burst Points to level up, this isn't use to pay for the new skill/move, it's a penalty to the avatar's controller; by becoming stronger and faster than other by one level, you have to pay something, and that naturally would be the points you earned from hard work
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Old 2013-03-16, 18:37   Link #155
Tusjecht
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
You know, I knew that each of the great legions' names were star-related, but I never once made the connection that they were ALL star-related.

With (and possibly because of) the exception of Great Wall. I don't see how that's astronomical.
Great Wall doesn't refer to the Chinese Great Wall. Here is the wiki page for the super-structure filament of galaxies. The star connection is unfortunately more apparent in the Chinese translations; NN, for example is literally translated as "Black Star Nebulae."

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I wouldn't go so far as the idea that he changed his shape, since his form of panels is directly related to the idea of "vise".
Safe Spoiler.
Spoiler for Vise changing form? In V13:


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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Haruyuki's idea of "fly" is bound up in the idea of "speed". He threw his whole heart into that virtual squashball game, attaining greater and greater speeds.

To Haruyuki, flying is part of going faster, and flying fast is the same as flying high, and flying high is the same as "transcending". There's also a strong element of "escape" rather than "self-improvement", as he wanted to escape his physical and social circumstances.
Understood that.

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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
But my theory seems sound, and would explain away some of the inconsistencies. That said, I don't think your idea couldn't be exactly right.
Wait, did you mean to say 'wrong' at the very end? I usually interpret sentences beginning with 'That said...' to admit some truth in a statement.

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The bull might have been a goof-up, like having Ivory Tower at the meeting where Red Rider died.
Some probability indeed.

Shiyumi, I'll answer you when I next get a break from work.
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Old 2013-03-16, 19:41   Link #156
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Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
Great Wall doesn't refer to the Chinese Great Wall.
Funnily enough, that structure never entered my mind. I always took the legion's name to mean, "We are the guild who swears to the duty of defending all others from a great and terrible threat. We are the Great Wall and the guardsmen who stand on it, holding back the darkness."

Even after I learned that probably wasn't the case, the impression stuck. It was even reinforced by hearing that Green Grandeur helped to suppress every instance of the Chrome Disaster.


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star connection is unfortunately more apparent in the Chinese translations; NN, for example is literally translated as "Black Star Nebulae."
I wonder if Petite Pacquette is star-related, or food-related as I initially assumed.


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Safe Spoiler.
Indeed. Sneaky bastard. Still, his color was apparently Blackish, if not pure Black.


Quote:
Wait, did you mean to say 'wrong' at the very end? I usually interpret sentences beginning with 'That said...' to admit some truth in a statement.
I mean to say that you could be right in that the author cared more about introducing a villain to vex the heroes and earn our hate than he cared about remaining fully consistent with his setting's internal logic.

But it's also possible that he did remain true to the setting, in that Dusk Taker might have started with a Limit Ability that Noumi simply never discovered.

Ultimately it doesn't matter, because Dusk Taker is dead, and Noumi will hopefully NEVER be important ever again.


Then again, Megumi was able to enter the UNF for one last time. Dusk Taker might yet make a brief reappearance.

It would be hilarious if, having apparently been reformed by losing his memories of Brain Burst, Dusk Taker decides to steal a power from an enemy like Black Vise before vanishing away for good... assuming that retirement doesn't return the abilities he steals.
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Old 2013-03-16, 19:55   Link #157
Tusjecht
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Funnily enough, that structure never entered my mind. I always took the legion's name to mean, "We are the guild who swears to the duty of defending all others from a great and terrible threat. We are the Great Wall and the guardsmen who stand on it, holding back the darkness."

Even after I learned that probably wasn't the case, the impression stuck. It was even reinforced by hearing that Green Grandeur helped to suppress every instance of the Chrome Disaster.
Minor nitpick: only the first to the fourth. Cherry Rook had the foot-to-the-face.

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Originally Posted by Sunder The Gold View Post
I wonder if Petite Pacquette is star-related, or food-related as I initially assumed.
I don't know much about that as I do know this: there is a PK group named Supernova Remnant. Additional spoilers on request.

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Originally Posted by Sunder The Gold View Post
It would be hilarious if, having apparently been reformed by losing his memories of Brain Burst, Dusk Taker decides to steal a power from an enemy like Black Vise before vanishing away for good... assuming that retirement doesn't return the abilities he steals.


However, Taker definitely lost his memories, while Megumi retained some awareness of Brain Burst. That might happen if you Direct Connected with Noumi, but...would you dare risk fighting Taker even one more time, having nothing much to gain? :P
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Old 2013-03-16, 20:11   Link #158
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Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
Minor nitpick: only the first to the fourth. Cherry Rook had the foot-to-the-face.
Scarlet Rain was probably insisting on handling the matter in-house, since Rook was so important to her. Even when that failed, she sought out allies with an ability she needed, but who would not be strong enough to take the matter out of her hands.

She had a much better chance of remaining in control of the situation while working with only three other Burst Linkers, but the Green King would have a significantly larger and stronger retinue to bring to bear. Plus, inviting the Green King would open the door for the other treaty-bound Kings.


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I don't know much about that as I do know this: there is a PK group named Supernova Remnant. Additional spoilers on request.
Hmm, tough call.

What would Takumu know about them, by reputation?


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However, Taker definitely lost his memories, while Megumi retained some awareness of Brain Burst.
Noumi remembers that he played a game with Haruyuki, and he recalls the sensation of flying.

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That might happen if you Direct Connected with Noumi, but...would you dare risk fighting Taker even one more time, having nothing much to gain? :P
I didn't suggest to deliberately try it; that would be stupid.

Besides, Megumi didn't direct link with KYH, she plugged into the hotel's hardware. Why would KYH and the Okinawan girls have needed to direct link to each other, when they just needed to use Unlimited Burst at the same time?

Physically interfacing with the hotel's hardware suggests to me that the room was cut off from wireless signals, just like in the room where Yuniko met with Haru and Taku concerning the Incarnate System. They likewise plugged into the hardware, but they didn't direct link to each other.
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Old 2013-03-16, 20:28   Link #159
Tusjecht
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Hmm, tough call.

What would Takumu know about them, by reputation?
Reputation? Not even close, lol.

Good spoiler first.

Spoiler for Taku and SR:


On a side note: what's your timezone, Gold?
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Old 2013-03-16, 20:52   Link #160
Sunder the Gold
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Originally Posted by tusjecht View Post
Reputation? Not even close, lol.

Good spoiler first.

Spoiler for Taku and SR:
Oo, tell me more. At least about that battle.


Quote:
On a side note: what's your timezone, Gold?
Central. Texas, USA.

However, I'm up in the early hours of the morning (generally 5am), riding around in a car to make deliveries. While doing so, I can use my iPhone to read posts between stops, and to make small replies to posts that aren't too big.

I can read and post more freely in the afternoon (generally 2pm), and I go to bed early in the evening (generally 9pm).
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