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Old 2012-08-27, 06:53   Link #1041
Rayrah
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Haha, man, next episode is going to be fuuuuuuuun. People in the episode 8 thread are talking about how the doors of the 74th boss' room may close, and that it may be an anti-crystal room. They also seem to think that Kirito got Liz to craft him the Dark Repulser because he's just being careful by getting a back-up sword in case his main/current one breaks. Tehehe.
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Old 2012-08-27, 10:55   Link #1042
lightbringer
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Klashikari's predictions in the episode 8 thread are eerily accurate - to the point that I half suspect that he's read the novel and is trolling the anime-only viewers. Since 74th floor is an open battle but really does in fact have an anti-crystal field, and the 75th is anti-crystal and closed room, too.
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Old 2012-08-27, 11:42   Link #1043
Clarste
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It's just common sense for a gamer. I really dislike the cynicism that goes into the corollary though: that Kirito and Asuna will somehow managed to kill the boss themselves (because obviously they won't die here). That would be pretty stupid. The scariest part is that the anime might actually do that...

Incidentally, I was the one speculating about it being a back-up sword and I actually have read the novels. I was just trying to think of a reason other than dual-wielding.
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Old 2012-08-27, 12:31   Link #1044
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SOA combat is a fair bit different then normal MMO's and that is why it is possible. In most MMO's so can you get as many as 40 people hitting a end game boss at the same time. This doesn't work in SOA as there are no significant range attacks and players swinging their melee weapons around need space to do so. That is why even when only the two of them were out killing mobs so did they take turns fighting, instead of getting in each others way.

Thus the only reason they need more then one person against a Boss is that the one(s) fighting the Boss needs to take healing breaks and it is also safer to switch out after doing Sword Skills due to being vulnerable right after doing one. There may also be adds that needs to be killed when they spawn.

Kirito is also level 96 out of 100 at this time, so he is actually still overleveled for floor 74. He would obviously have a harder time soloing a boss closer to the top floor even if he was level 100.
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Old 2012-08-27, 12:32   Link #1045
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Originally Posted by Znail View Post
SOA combat is a fair bit different then normal MMO's and that is why it is possible. In most MMO's so can you get as many as 40 people hitting a end game boss at the same time. This doesn't work in SOA as there are no significant range attacks and players swinging their melee weapons around need space to do so. That is why even when only the two of them were out killing mobs so did they take turns fighting, instead of getting in each others way.

Thus the only reason they need more then one person against a Boss is that the one(s) fighting the Boss needs to take healing breaks and it is also safer to switch out after doing Sword Skills due to being vulnerable right after doing one. There may also be adds that needs to be killed when they spawn.

Kirito is also level 96 out of 100 at this time, so he is actually still overleveled for floor 74. He would obviously have a harder time soloing a boss closer to the top floor even if he was level 100.
we don't know if 100lv is max.
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Old 2012-08-27, 12:35   Link #1046
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we don't know if 100lv is max.
I think it is mentioned somewhere, but you may be right. But we do know that skills are maxed out at 1000. But all MMO's I know of have a max level, just for this reason, to make the end game fights a challange.
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Old 2012-08-27, 12:36   Link #1047
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Even if you're overleveled, soloing a boss is no easy task. There's like a whole series of videos devoted to people doingit in WoW, and they're all completely crazy. Kirito hasn't soloed any of the other floor bosses, and he doesn't solo this one despite the rather cheesy Dual Wield reveal. Heck, he almost dies and he's got Asuna as well as Klein's entire guild there with him.

SAO's combat doesn't work like most games, but that fact that you take chip damage from parrying basically ensures that soloing a boss should be completely impossible. You just never get any time to heal.
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Old 2012-08-27, 12:44   Link #1048
Znail
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Even if you're overleveled, soloing a boss is no easy task. There's like a whole series of videos devoted to people doingit in WoW, and they're all completely crazy. Kirito hasn't soloed any of the other floor bosses, and he doesn't solo this one despite the rather cheesy Dual Wield reveal. Heck, he almost dies and he's got Asuna as well as Klein's entire guild there with him.

SAO's combat doesn't work like most games, but that fact that you take chip damage from parrying basically ensures that soloing a boss should be completely impossible. You just never get any time to heal.
But WoW is a classical point and click MMO's where you are supposed to have multiple people both doing damage and healing the tank so he wont die. SOA is more like even Boss fights are one-on-one duels and you only need more people due to having to rest. Thus so is it far easier for a single person to take up the slack by simply being better and lasting longer then the average guy.
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Old 2012-08-27, 12:46   Link #1049
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Originally Posted by Znail View Post
SOA combat is a fair bit different then normal MMO's and that is why it is possible. In most MMO's so can you get as many as 40 people hitting a end game boss at the same time. This doesn't work in SOA as there are no significant range attacks and players swinging their melee weapons around need space to do so. That is why even when only the two of them were out killing mobs so did they take turns fighting, instead of getting in each others way.

Thus the only reason they need more then one person against a Boss is that the one(s) fighting the Boss needs to take healing breaks and it is also safer to switch out after doing Sword Skills due to being vulnerable right after doing one. There may also be adds that needs to be killed when they spawn.

Kirito is also level 96 out of 100 at this time, so he is actually still overleveled for floor 74. He would obviously have a harder time soloing a boss closer to the top floor even if he was level 100.
Even with the SAO combat mechanics, it is stretching it to allow them to solo the boss. The raid party had far more then 2 people attacking the boss: some were using pole arm weapons with longer reach to attack from behind the melee rank and such. The tanks like Heathcliff and Schmitt from DDA takes much less damage from bosses then K&A and that allow the dps classes to focus on dps. If K&A can solo bosses themselves, then all they really need to is add heathcliff and a couple others to do boss fights rather then a full raid comprise of multiple large guilds and solo player group.

Although, if boss spawns adds, that's another story entirely and would justify more manpower.

I understand the point was to show case duel wield. It still doesn't make it less unbelievable though.

And about DW, I don't understand why K does not use it in his regular exp grind. He usually solos in area no one is around anyways and had to practice a ton to get the skill up in the first place. It would be far more efficient for him to farm/level up using it then keep it hidden just so it becomes a plot device for this sudden reveal.
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Old 2012-08-27, 12:47   Link #1050
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But WoW is a classical point and click MMO's where you are supposed to have multiple people both doing damage and healing the tank so he wont die. SOA is more like even Boss fights are one-on-one duels and you only need more people due to having to rest. Thus so is it far easier for a single person to take up the slack by simply being better and lasting longer then the average guy.
You take damage while parrying. Parrying also prevents you from attacking, so the fight takes longer. Your life gets whittled away over time and there's nothing you can do about it. Honestly, it should be harder to solo than WoW, where most classes get some sort of self-healing mechanic.
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Old 2012-08-27, 12:52   Link #1051
Znail
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And about DW, I don't understand why K does not use it in his regular exp grind. He usually solos in area no one is around anyways and had to practice a tone to get the skill up in the first place. It would be far more efficient for him to farm/level up using it then keep it hidden just so it becomes a plot device for this sudden reveal.
He does do that, we just haven't been shown that as it would ruin the suprice. He has actually maxed his Dual Blades skill, so he has used it a fair bit. He has also maxed his one-handed sword skill too so he would have needed to use that one as well. But we can perhaps assume that one of the reasons why he is so high level compared to other players now is because he has gotten solo xp with a hax skill
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Old 2012-08-27, 12:55   Link #1052
SagaraSouske
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If Kirito and Asuna are able to solo the boss by switching constantly, then what happens when they are both attacking the boss in regular raids, along with other front liners with similar levels and gear (close to them anyways). Boss would have fall pretty easily each time. If healing was available, then it is more believable to have a small group perform feat equal to a larger raid group but there are no healing available and it was only two of them. It's a still a matter of going through 4 HP bars that normally takes quite a bit of time with far more then the two of them dpsing the boss while tanks take turn mitigating the boss's dmg.
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Old 2012-08-27, 12:57   Link #1053
SagaraSouske
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He does do that, we just haven't been shown that as it would ruin the suprice. He has actually maxed his Dual Blades skill, so he has used it a fair bit. He has also maxed his one-handed sword skill too so he would have needed to use that one as well. But we can perhaps assume that one of the reasons why he is so high level compared to other players now is because he has gotten solo xp with a hax skill
Then what was the point of the lizard man fight on 74? He didn't use DW. It seems to be hinted that after he maxed DW in secret he avoids using it unless it is absolutely necessary - which means he grinds without using it unless the fight gets dangerously enough that he had to.
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Old 2012-08-27, 13:07   Link #1054
Znail
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You take damage while parrying. Parrying also prevents you from attacking, so the fight takes longer. Your life gets whittled away over time and there's nothing you can do about it. Honestly, it should be harder to solo than WoW, where most classes get some sort of self-healing mechanic.
Noway. There is simply noway to solo an end game Boss in WoW unless you are many levels higher then it. But there are MMO's with similar combat systems like in SOA, TERA being one. There you can actually solo a Boss as a tank, it just takes forever and you have to really know what you are doing. They talk about it a bit in SOA even. The trick is that you need to know the ques and attack skills the Boss have, then you can block and dodge at the right time to avoid damage.
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Old 2012-08-27, 13:14   Link #1055
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Doing you mean BAM or an actual raid boss. There is quite a difference between the two. In most MMOs a good group or sometimes a single player can probably solo some dungeon bosses, but raid bosses are impossible to solo without some form of healing. Because there are abilities that will do damage no matter what and you simply cannot dps fast enough to avoid taking those damage.
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Old 2012-08-27, 13:23   Link #1056
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But we can perhaps assume that one of the reasons why he is so high level compared to other players now is because he has gotten solo xp with a hax skill
But Asuna doesn't have any of that and is just two levels behind him....
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Old 2012-08-27, 13:54   Link #1057
Znail
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But Asuna doesn't have any of that and is just two levels behind him....
Asuna have been sleeping like 3 hours a day to power level herself. She is also actually a bit better then Kirito at killing mobs, she has won bets against him in that area after all

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Doing you mean BAM or an actual raid boss. There is quite a difference between the two. In most MMOs a good group or sometimes a single player can probably solo some dungeon bosses, but raid bosses are impossible to solo without some form of healing. Because there are abilities that will do damage no matter what and you simply cannot dps fast enough to avoid taking those damage.
Well, TERA still have healing and no collision between players in combat, so a real Boss there will be realy difficult for a solo player because of the unavoidable damage you mention that requires a healer to counter and there are enrage timers etc. But SOA doesn't have healing nor can you squeeze in a lot of people to hit on the Boss at the same time. Thus soloing a Boss in SOA would be about equal to soloing a BAM in TERA.

Note that another reason they need so many people in SOA for a Boss fight is because they want as much safety margin as possible due to deaths in the fight is obviously something they want to avoid.

Last edited by Znail; 2012-08-27 at 14:04.
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Old 2012-08-27, 17:02   Link #1058
lightbringer
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A full raid group in SAO was like, what, 48 people IIRC? And they normally try to hit that number. Regardless of whether it's a point-and-click MMO like WoW or an action MMO like TERA/SAO, there is one single truth though: if your mitigation/self-healing (and I am adding active dodge mitigation to this category) is lower than the incoming damage, eventually you will die.
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Old 2012-08-27, 18:02   Link #1059
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48 is the system limit on raid groups, but in Aria Kirito was hoping they'd have enough people show up to bring multiple raid groups into the dungeon. They probably err on the side of overkill, though not so much so that a TPK event will cripple the front line crew.
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Old 2012-08-27, 18:12   Link #1060
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Klashikari's predictions in the episode 8 thread are eerily accurate - to the point that I half suspect that he's read the novel and is trolling the anime-only viewers. Since 74th floor is an open battle but really does in fact have an anti-crystal field, and the 75th is anti-crystal and closed room, too.
Klash is good like that, lol. But he is in for a surprise since it's the next boss fight that will introduce this. The problem with them doing the side stories first, and having that trap chest, was that it changed the viewer's perceptions. In the novel, there was no areas where you couldn't teleport out of.
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