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Old 2012-07-14, 07:04   Link #41
Wild Goose
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I'd note that my religious text notes that a fool will always hold he is cleverer than the wise, and the best way to deal with fools is to answer them in such a way that their ignorance and foolishness becomes apparent.

I'd also add that there is a difference between quoting an opinion in support of your argument, and simply blindly regurgitating the word of your peers.

The benefits of studying law in a nation that practices the adversarial system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
This amuses me greatly. The first two pages of Kirito's character thread, a thorough rebuttal to why Kirito is not a Sue.
No,it's just that Randomzx is regurgitating an opinion held by others, and has evidently not read the books.

Whereas I have read the books several times, and I am a lot better at arguing my case than he is, being that I've actually thought this through, and came to this conclusion by my self.
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Old 2012-07-14, 07:22   Link #42
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There was one Stu-ish moment in Kirito's life, though.

Spoiler for vol2:
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Old 2012-07-14, 09:12   Link #43
Randomzx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swordstriker21 View Post
Seeing that his arguments have been already deconstructed to a degree it becomes invalid it seems there's no point in chiming in fairly similar points. If he still doesn't understand then I will just simply consider him a troll and move on.
Its more like you people still don't understand what a Gary Stu/Mary Sue is.
You guys are basing your idea that because Kirito is not perfect, he's not a Gary Stu.
The Mary sue concept is not just simple as you guys make it out to be, and you seems to be also basing them on popular misconception.
Often harcore 'edgy' character or 'gangster' characters can just as easily be qualified.

As I said before people conveniently ignored that a Gary Stu's role and abilities have such cancerous focus/grip on the story that it harms it to a huge degree. Pretty much All of his 'mistakes' and 'drama' in his 'backstory' are more due to other people's fault and are typical mary sueish melodramatic 'tragedy'.

http://ppc.wikia.com/wiki/Mary_Sue
http://www.answers.com/topic/mary-sue-1
http://fanlore.org/wiki/Mary_Sue
http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Stu
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue
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Old 2012-07-14, 09:34   Link #44
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Let's make this clear: We absolutely do not see how his role or his abilities 'have such cancerous focus/grip on the story that it harms it to a huge degree'. Not in a Light Novel. It's called LIGHT for a reason. We totally understand that a REAL novel would have the protagonists as a normal man/woman doing normal things and does not particularly affect the world and proves that a man's power can only go so far, but this is for god's sake a LIGHT novel. From Japan. Exactly what the heck are you expecting, Game of Thrones kind of story?

This sentence is especially wrong even if I try to look at it objectively. 'All of his 'mistakes' and 'drama' in his 'backstory' are more due to other people's fault'? When you spill your milk as a kid it's both your fault for being young and your mother's fault for not taking better care of you. When you fight with your friends it's both your faults for duking it out despite better options.

More due to 'other people's fault'? Every time something happens, EVERYTHING is a reason. That's an absolutely stupid statement to use to base your arguments.
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Old 2012-07-14, 09:40   Link #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
This amuses me greatly. The first two pages of Kirito's character thread, a thorough rebuttal to why Kirito is not a Sue.
Don't feed the trolls?
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Old 2012-07-14, 10:31   Link #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomzx View Post
Its more like you people still don't understand what a Gary Stu/Mary Sue is.
You guys are basing your idea that because Kirito is not perfect, he's not a Gary Stu. The Mary sue concept is not just simple as you guys make it out to me. Often harcore 'edgy' character or 'gangster' characters can just as easily be qualified.

As I said before people conveniently ignored that a Gary Stu's role and abilities have such cancerous focus/grip on the story that it harms it to a huge degree. Pretty much All of his 'mistakes' and 'drama' in his 'backstory' are more due to other people's fault and are typical mary sueish melodramatic 'tragedy'.
The person here who doesn't understand what the term means here is you. The term "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" and the adjective "perfect" go hand-in-hand; a character that is inherently perfect does not imply, in any way, that a character is a Sue/Stu. However, it's some of those qualities that perfect characters possess that makes them Sues or Stus, which Kirito does not. One such example is a character being so extremely powerful and intelligent that they're able to predict every move every one of their opponents makes in a fight, and counter effectively and flawlessly. Of course, there's more than one definition to the term, but I'm sure you know that.

If you understand the term so well, I don't see why you simply couldn't explain, in detail, what the term means, and show how Kirito is one instead of throwing the definitions and a baseless statement or two at us.

Cancerous grip? Harms it to a huge degree? Your words mean nothing without examples/evidence. And before you say "neither do yours!" I'd like to point out that I don't know what this "cancerous grip" that has harmed the story "to a huge degree" is. The only time you presented examples, they weren't even yours, not to mention the fact that were proven invalid.

As you've evidently not read the novels, your argument is completely and utterly laughable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craxuan View Post
Let's make this clear: We absolutely do not see how his role or his abilities 'have such cancerous focus/grip on the story that it harms it to a huge degree'. Not in a Light Novel. It's called LIGHT for a reason. We totally understand that a REAL novel would have the protagonists as a normal man/woman doing normal things and does not particularly affect the world and proves that a man's power can only go so far, but this is for god's sake a LIGHT novel. From Japan. Exactly what the heck are you expecting, Game of Thrones kind of story?
I don't see what this has to do with it being a light novel. The main reasons light novels are called light are because of two reasons: 1) the illustrations, and 2) the target demographic.

A "real" novel? SAO is fantasy mixed with some sci-fi; the whole idea is that it's not supposed to be real. There's no such thing a "real" novel; it all depends on the genre (i.e. realism if you want to read about normal people doing normal things).
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Old 2012-07-14, 10:43   Link #47
novalysis
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Spoiler for Novel:


So yeah. I don't see SAO as a conventional Light Novel - it's head and shoulders over the vast majority of it's compatriots. Not to mention that Light Novel cliches are really a very recent phenomena, and thankfully, SAO begun before that trend rotted stories published in that format.

Seriously. SAO could easily be published as a near-future Sci-Fi novel - especially the best of it's later volumes, and it won't look out of place.
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Old 2012-07-14, 12:00   Link #48
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You know I really don't care if Kirito is considered a Gary Stu or whatever.

I love it when my characters using overwhelming force, hot-blood, guts, and power of will to curb stomp the enemy.

Not like monster of the week star driver like curb stomp thats a whole different animal altogether.

I'm talking actually making the enemy feel the pain of having someone just better then them stomping a mud hole in their rear.

In other words Personally I really don't care much either way as long as the story is kept entertaining and yes I most people like to see the main character actually work for his or her victory winning impossible odds not with just overwhelming force alone. After all if you see them stomp every single enemy everytime it starts to get old for some however once in awhile it feels good to immerse yourself in fiction for noting more then a good time.
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Old 2012-07-14, 12:35   Link #49
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I hate to rain on your parade, guys, but generally Light Novels are termed that way because they use simplified characters in their printing, instead of the more complicated shit.

That said, the usual Light Novel demographic roughly corresponds to what in America would be the Young Adult market. When was the last time you saw something like SAO in the YA section? As far as I can recall, never.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rovert10 View Post
Don't feed the trolls?
Nah, I just find it always amusing that these types of people tend to always run away from point-by-point countering of their ideas, and will always fall back on the last defense of the ignorant: bluster and sweeping statements.

Oh wait, this wasn't even his idea to begin with - he's just regurgitating (i.e. eating his own vomit before vomiting out again) the ideas of someone else! So yeah, I think I win.

But then, it was an unfair debate to begin with - after all, I did study law, taking the hardest external degree programme in the Commonwealth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomzx View Post
Its more like you people still don't understand what a Gary Stu/Mary Sue is.
You guys are basing your idea that because Kirito is not perfect, he's not a Gary Stu.
The problem, boyo, is that your examples generally agree on one point: Mary Sues tend to be perfect. The story follows them. Everyone loves them and throws themselves at the Sue's feet. There is no conflict. The appearance of the Sue is an automatic Win button for the heroes.

Frankly, I don't see this happening in Sword Art Online. But then again, I wouldn't expect you to be aware of this, given that you've chosen to launch your trolling based on the opinion of someone else, which you are just regurgitating*, and you have not even read the books in question.

Which I assume is frustrating you to no end, as I keep asking you to provide examples to argue your case, at which point you resort to sweeping statements. That's truly the mark of someone who didn't study his source material.

*Regurgitating: technical term for what cows do, which is eating grass, vomiting it up, and eating the said vomit. Process repeats three times for another three stomachs, until the 4x regurgitated grass vomit hits the intestines.

Quote:
The Mary sue concept is not just simple as you guys make it out to be, and you seems to be also basing them on popular misconception.
Often harcore 'edgy' character or 'gangster' characters can just as easily be qualified.
At the same time, you haven't actually given anything to prove your point. You've just said, "Kirito is a Sue, because another poster said so!" and you haven't managed to argue your points successfully. Hell, you haven't even read the light novels!

You have zero credibility in this case. Go and read. Then redo your points with your examples. And then, maybe then, will you be taken seriously.

Wait, you can't. You've shown zero ability to think and debate point by point. All you can do is make sweeping, generalized statements, because you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Quote:
As I said before people conveniently ignored that a Gary Stu's role and abilities have such cancerous focus/grip on the story that it harms it to a huge degree.

Pretty much All of his 'mistakes' and 'drama' in his 'backstory' are more due to other people's fault and are typical mary sueish melodramatic 'tragedy'.

http://ppc.wikia.com/wiki/Mary_Sue
http://www.answers.com/topic/mary-sue-1
http://fanlore.org/wiki/Mary_Sue
http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Stu
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue
You're missing the whole point. And since we're linking, I'm going to counter with a blog post from Larry Correia, who is a published author on the New York Times bestseller list, AND Jim Butcher, author of the excellent Codex Alera and Dresden Files series is a big fan of his: The Evils of Mary Sue

I'll sum up his main point, which is something you keep willfully ignoring: Kirito, nor other characters in Sword Art Online, can NOT correctly be termed as Mary Sues, because they are organic to that verse. They are the main characters of that verse. Therefore, the term Mary Sue cannot apply, as it is used to refer to fanfiction author created characters with undesirable traits.

And Kirito's mistakes being due to other people? Really. Well then, where's your evidence? Show your examples to back up your arguments. Where is the cancerous grip on the story? He's telling his own story. Of course it will follow him!

And again, you're not giving your examples, but just making sweeping, broad statements. Contrast the following analogies:

Scenario: Plaintiff ship owner suing defendant dock owner as dock is too shallow to moor ship, and ship is damaged.

Randomzx: "Docks should be deep enough!" (Sweeping statement)

Wild Goose: "Based on the Officious Bystander Rule, as laid down in the case of The Moorcock, it is submitted that there was an implied term in the contract that the defendants' dock would be deep enough to allow the plaintiff's vessel to be moored without damage." (Point and quoted example to support.)

But at the end of the day, what this really serves to accomplish is nothing of import. Without a strong argument, you cannot convince us, yet you cannot argue that which you do not know. You who know not what you speak of, but in your conceit attempt to lord your ignorance over others, brushing aside debate and reasoned arguments for childish bluster.

You are as a storm in a teacup, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post
You know I really don't care if Kirito is considered a Gary Stu or whatever.

I love it when my characters using overwhelming force, hot-blood, guts, and power of will to curb stomp the enemy.

Not like monster of the week star driver like curb stomp thats a whole different animal altogether.

I'm talking actually making the enemy feel the pain of having someone just better then them stomping a mud hole in their rear.
This brings a few phrases to mind, such as Victory Goes To The Brave, Dividing Driver, Final Fusion... GaoGaiGar.

That said, often times the Braves did have to work hard for their wins. But when they pulled it off, awesomeness ensued.

Quote:
In other words Personally I really don't care much either way as long as the story is kept entertaining and yes I most people like to see the main character actually work for his or her victory winning impossible odds not with just overwhelming force alone. After all if you see them stomp every single enemy everytime it starts to get old for some however once in awhile it feels good to immerse yourself in fiction for noting more then a good time.
That's quite true. Sephiroth, for instance, is a massive sue, and yet gets a pass due to how entertaining he is. One could argue Nineball Seraph is this as well, or the Dovahkiin...

Bottomline: If you're entertained and having fun, then it's forgivable. That said, IMO Kirito isn't a Sue, based on above posts.
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Old 2012-07-14, 13:38   Link #50
Randomzx
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Quote:
The person here who doesn't understand what the term means here is you. The term "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" and the adjective "perfect" go hand-in-hand; a character that is inherently perfect does not imply, in any way, that a character is a Sue/Stu. However, it's some of those qualities that perfect characters possess that makes them Sues or Stus, which Kirito does not.
I bet you still haven't done any research on what Mary Sue is really about or even checked out my links. I seriously think its your fan boy reaction that prevent you guys from seeing what Kirito truly is and chose ignore moments of that case and cherry pick details and as 'evidence'that Kirito is not a sue.
A Mary Sue is not required to be flawless, see for example
http://ppc.wikia.com/wiki/Drizzt_do%27Urden


Quote:
One such example is a character being so extremely powerful and intelligent that they're able to predict every move every one of their opponents makes in a fight, and counter effectively and flawlessly. Of course, there's more than one definition to the term, but I'm sure you know that.
Spoiler:


Quote:
If you understand the term so well, I don't see why you simply couldn't explain, in detail, what the term means, and show how Kirito is one instead of throwing the definitions and a baseless statement or two at us.
From one source:
Quote:
Other characters in the story do not react to Mary Sue as they would normally?canon characters become out of character.
Characters instantly like Mary Sue, even in circumstances that should make them suspicious. For instance, a fifteen-year-old breaks into Cheyenne Mountain, hacks the Air Force's website and steals data, assaults base guards, and employs blackmail in order to join SG-1. Colonel Samantha Carter decides that they can treat him like an adult due to his IQ and understands that all he wants to do is help. He is allowed to join.[3]
Characters instantly dislike Mary Sue for spurious reasons that don't fit their personalities. A frequently encountered example of this in Lord of the Rings fanfiction is the Designated Misogynistic Bastard: despite no indication in The Lord of the Rings that he dislikes women, Boromir (or Gimli, or Aragorn) puts Mary Sue down because "girls aren't strong enough for this."[4] This should create plot tension, but Mary Sue overcomes the token obstacle easily, either winning the DMB over or causing the others to shun him, and the story proceeds.
Spoiler:


Quote:
Secondary Traits Edit
Some traits are commonly associated with Mary Sues without in and of themselves causing a character to be a Mary Sue. All of these traits can be portrayed well in an original character, but the reason they are associated with Sues is that they are often a part of the Sue's "specialness," meaning that they're used in the narrative as cheap tickets for the character to instantly earn the respect, admiration, or sympathy of others. Because readers can often see through traits used in this manner, they can cause readers to lose their ability to suspend disbelief, to the detriment of the story.
Quote:
Extreme physical beauty. Female Sues especially are often described as having "perfect" or "supermodel"[10] features, reflecting not real beauty, but the impossible feminine ideal invented by fashion ads. Other Sues, and Stus in particular, may be described as being unnaturally buff, with a physique and agility normally only attainable in tandem by anime characters. If a Sue has a physical flaw, it tends to be something like a birthmark: visible, and a talking point when the Sue feels like drawing attention to it, but otherwise having no impact on her daily life. Other characters may even see this "flaw" as a unique decoration to be admired.
May be accompanied by florid over-description, as in this page's epigraph.
Spoiler:


Quote:
Extreme prowess. Many Sues have some kind of talent that far outstrips anyone else with a similar ability, if indeed anyone else possesses it. An Elven Sue may be a better archer than Legolas; an X-Men Sue may have the combined powers of Wolverine, Cyclops, and Professor X; a Harry Potter Sue may be able to perform wandless magic in year three.[11] Often, this is a talent Mary Sue was born with; she didn't have to spend years perfecting it like anyone else in the world would. This also includes the many, many Sues observed to have fantastic singing voices, able to enchant anyone with the stirring melodies of Britney Spears.
Spoiler:


Quote:
A terrible past. Something happened in the character's past that is supposed to make other characters (and the audience) sympathize with her in the present. Comes in two flavors in a Sue story:
Actually terrible, but trivialized due to mishandling: her parents died and she's living with mean foster parents... who don't understand her taste in manga;[12] or, she's the only surviving member of her race... so she must mate with Legolas.[13]
Not actually terrible: she's cursed with beauty,[14] or she's a nerd and no one recognizes her genius, or she's a princess running away from the horrible oppression of the royal lifestyle.
Spoiler:



Seriously, in most of the forums and discussion I heard, its a general consensus that Kirito is a Gary Stu. Its your fanboy vision and tendency to hold onto minor justifying details that doesn't allow you to see Kirito that way.
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Old 2012-07-14, 14:09   Link #51
Rennir
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Kirito is overpowered though, in my opinion, having read through Mother Rosario. He is the most powerful player in virtual reality. There was no one better than him in SAO except for the person who created SAO, Kayaba. And in Mother Rosario, Kirito wasn't dual wielding, so he wasn't going full out. Randomzx also gives a couple of good examples in GGO that made me pause.
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Old 2012-07-14, 14:28   Link #52
Craxuan
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I'm pretty sure that Kirito decided not to stop his teammates from opening the chest despite knowing the risk, because he was afraid that his Beater identity will be revealed and hated by everyone.

And Rennir, you did not read Mother Rosario thoroughly enough.

Spoiler for Mother Rosario spoiler:
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Old 2012-07-14, 14:36   Link #53
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Double standards:

If we get the cookie cutter harem protags, they're insulted and belittled.

On the other hand, make someone competent/strong and you get complaints that he's way too good for the story.

Here's an example: Ezio Auditore da Firenze of the Assassins Creed II fame. Not only does he routinely do the impossible, what with assassinating high value targets and liberating cities practically on his own when he shows up, but he also happens to be best buds with people like Leonardo da Vinci or Machiavelli. In other words, he seems perfect.

Rare will you find a person bitching or moaning about him simply cause he fills the purpose of making the medium interesting. If Kirito fails that job, then he's definitely on his way to being a sue. If he doesn't, then it's a good sign he's a good character.
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Old 2012-07-14, 14:46   Link #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craxuan View Post
And Rennir, you did not read Mother Rosario thoroughly enough.

Spoiler for Mother Rosario spoiler:
Nope, I don't remember that part Would you mind quoting it for me?
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Old 2012-07-14, 17:03   Link #55
Craxuan
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I read the Chinese ones only, sorry.
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Old 2012-07-14, 17:15   Link #56
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rennir View Post
Nope, I don't remember that part Would you mind quoting it for me?
Spoiler for Answer:
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Old 2012-07-14, 17:22   Link #57
Randomzx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craxuan View Post
Spoiler for Mother Rosario spoiler:
Spoiler:


Quote:
Rare will you find a person bitching or moaning about him simply cause he fills the purpose of making the medium interesting. If Kirito fails that job, then he's definitely on his way to being a sue. If he doesn't, then it's a good sign he's a good character.
Except he doesn't make the story interesting, in fact he makes it more generic. The author really just can't carry the premise of the MMO world, its pretty much another stale JRPG 2.0 in a VR world (Aren't they suppose to offer full immersion? this is more like that old Nintendo Virtual Boy [same old gameplay with more fancy graphics and special effects]) to with an even more generic online society.

he even admits the story suffers because of imbalanced focus in his notes.

Quote:
This day's event was completed in the predawn between 2 and 5 a.m (laughs). The contents are...as always, Kirito-shi and as always, Asuna-san and as always, Lyfa-san and as always Lizbeth-san and as always Scilica-san and as always Sinon-san and as always Yui-san and as always Alice-san. Well, Alice is not always......
Quote:
In this SAO work, the heroines kept increasing as the story progressed, but the structure of the story didn't let protagonist Kirito-shi to come up with a clear answer, if I tried to find a conclusion to the situation, it'd only be in this form. Was what I thought as I wrote this short story.
Quote:
This time too, as I re-read the script...... I felt it was terrible in various ways. But, well, I can't stop thinking that it was, in a sense, the meaning of the SAO series (laugh)."
It was really meant to be a one volume story he wrote and edited when he was young, but popular demands forced to create more with little time for proper planning.

Last edited by Randomzx; 2012-07-14 at 17:46.
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Old 2012-07-14, 17:44   Link #58
Swordstriker21
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Well Randomzx you've already made it pretty clear you're not into the novel that much. What else is there to prove? Thing is fans will be fans and haters will be haters. Let's just chalk this up to differences of point of view and tastes and get on w/ it. If you're not happy w/ the series in general then drop it. No need to have lengthy arguments w/ fans who having been immersed in the series found it enjoyable and would not likely change their minds.
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Old 2012-07-14, 21:22   Link #59
Wild Goose
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Here I go again. That said, I have practically zero expectation that I'm going to get a reply.

*Edit: Spoilering the bulk of the replies. *shrug* Not that it will do much good, since the mods tell me spoilers are spoilers, but this is the only way to address Randomzx.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomzx View Post
I bet you still haven't done any research on what Mary Sue is really about or even checked out my links. I seriously think its your fan boy reaction that prevent you guys from seeing what Kirito truly is and chose ignore moments of that case and cherry pick details and as 'evidence'that Kirito is not a sue.
A Mary Sue is not required to be flawless, see for example
http://ppc.wikia.com/wiki/Drizzt_do%27Urden
And I bet you haven't actually read any of my posts, given that you won't respond to anything that I've posted. Again, you're missing the point that a Mary Sue is a fanfiction character. Mind you, to follow TV Tropes, Canon Sue might be a better description. But then by your examples and your interpretations, it would seem that Harry Dresden would be a Sue, Richard Winters is a Sue, and every member of Delta Force is a Sue.

You forget that being a Mary Sue is an instant I Win button, which does not happen for Kirito, who goes through a lot of shit and has to work to get his happy ending.

Spoiler for Significant Novel Details:


The last statements Randomzx has made do not contain spoilers, and I feel there's a certain benefit to addressing them publicly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomzx View Post
Seriously, in most of the forums and discussion I heard, its a general consensus that Kirito is a Gary Stu.
Emphasis mine. You do realise how sad this is, don't you? You had no opinion of your own, but latched onto the opinions of others, and use that to prop yourself to a position of superiority, whereby you attempt to lecture us all. You cannot even argue your opinion, because it isn't your opinion, it's the opinion of others that you are just regurgitating.

There's a fine line between quoting an agreeing opinion, and simply blindly following the crowd.

Quote:
Its your fanboy vision and tendency to hold onto minor justifying details that doesn't allow you to see Kirito that way.
I was wondering when you were going to throw out the ad hominem. It's a notoriously weak logical argument, and is often used to distract the focus of a discussion - to move it from an indefensible point (Kirito is a supposed Sue) and attack the opponent (Aphrah, since you seem to be ignorign me).

The fact that you must resort to this should be evident enough that your position cannot hold.

One last thought before I go: The yardstick that you use? Apply it to any one of the Avengers in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and you'd get a whole team of Sues. Yet The Avengers was regarded as one of the most entertaining films of this year. Think about that.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2012-07-14 at 21:45. Reason: Tidying up the replies
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Old 2012-07-14, 21:30   Link #60
kyp275
ZA ZOMBIE!!!
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Somewhere in the EVE cluster...
Should probably just stop feeding the troll goose, let it die a hungry death :P
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