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Old 2013-04-24, 20:05   Link #461
Shadow5YA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
I never said I wanted her to have it. I said letting her have it would have been a better response than what Hikki did. The best response is to appeal to the authority of the teachers. Because frankly Hikki doesn't even have the right to let her use the field.

And again, it's not. You haven't shown one piece of evidence that it would be better, other than to satisfy personal moral standards.

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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
She did say she would help Saika. If you missed that that might explain your attitude. She promised to let Saika practice with them. Because she's actually not the devil. Or at least she can successfully pretend to not be the devil.
No one ever called her the devil except you.
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Old 2013-04-24, 20:07   Link #462
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Wow stop white knighting.

Yumiko is not some frail helpless girl being misunderstood.
What? All I'm saying is that Hikki is being irrationally stubborn (and by extension you are too). You're not even helping yourself. Seriously, your "caution" in this case is doing nothing but harming everyone involved, especially Saika who I might remind you is the only reason Hikki cares about the tennis field in the first place. It's just... stupid.

Yumiko doesn't need protection, but she also doesn't need to be defeated by a two-bit hero who chose the wrong moment to stand up for himself. Rational self-interest implies being rational.

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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
And again, it's not. You haven't shown one piece of evidence that it would be better, other than to satisfy personal moral standards.
Saika did not get any practice this episode. Because the duel used up the entire lunch break. This is a fact. If Yumiko had even a 0.0000001% chance of letting Saika practice with them, then letting her use the field would be better. This is math, statistics, common sense, logic. What do you have on your side of the argument, other than a hatred of rude girls?
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Old 2013-04-24, 20:14   Link #463
Shadow5YA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Saika did not get any practice this episode. Because the duel used up the entire lunch break. This is a fact. If Yumiko had even a 0.0000001% chance of letting Saika practice with them, then letting her use the field would be better. This is math, statistics, common sense, logic. What do you have on your side of the argument, other than a hatred of rude girls?
Upon rewatching the episode:
Images
screenshot
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Once again, they wanted to kick Hachiman's group off for good.

And let's keep in mind that Saika asked the Service club for good, not Hayato or Yumiko.

That's not to mention how incredibly flawed your logic is if you think choosing an option with a "0.0000001% chance" of having a good outcome is a wise gamble.
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Old 2013-04-24, 20:15   Link #464
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
What? All I'm saying is that Hikki is being irrationally stubborn (and by extension you are too). You're not even helping yourself. Seriously, your "caution" in this case is doing nothing but harming everyone involved, especially Saika who I might remind you is the only reason Hikki cares about the tennis field in the first place. It's just... stupid.

Yumiko doesn't need protection, but she also doesn't need to be defeated by a two-bit hero who chose the wrong moment to stand up for himself. Rational self-interest implies being rational.
Yes because Yumiko is so totally rational prioritizing her fun instead of leaving them alone.

Quote:
Saika did not get any practice this episode. Because the duel used up the entire lunch break. This is a fact. If Yumiko had even a 0.0000001% chance of letting Saika practice with them, then letting her use the field would be better. This is math, statistics, common sense, logic. What do you have on your side of the argument, other than a hatred of rude girls?
Saika didnt get any pratice because Yumiko wouldn't let it go its as simple as that.

No matter how badly you want to spin it.
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Old 2013-04-24, 20:18   Link #465
Clarste
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I never said Yumiko was blameless. I specifically said both of them escalated the problem together. That's all there is to it. And backing down could have solved the problem with minimal loss, especially if Saika gets the practice anyway (which Yumiko did promise).

And of course it's in Yumiko's rational self-interest to try to get something she wants. What does she have to lose by trying? Is it nice? Maybe not, but she did offer to help Saika. Why does Hikki care who provides the help?
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Old 2013-04-24, 20:22   Link #466
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
I never said Yumiko was blameless. I specifically said both of them escalated the problem together. That's all there is to it. And backing down could have solved the problem with minimal loss, especially if Saika gets the practice anyway (which Yumiko did promise).

And of course it's in Yumiko's rational self-interest to try to get something she wants. What does she have to lose by trying? Is it nice? Maybe not, but she did offer to help Saika. Why does Hikki care who provides the help?
Because Saika specifically asked the service club?

Because it's Hachiman's obligation as a service club member?

Because if Hachiman doesn't participate as a service club member, Shizuka won't let him pass onto the next grade?

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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
And of course it's in Yumiko's rational self-interest to try to get something she wants. What does she have to lose by trying? Is it nice? Maybe not, but she did offer to help Saika. Why does Hikki care who provides the help?
I don't understand this at all. It's fine for Yumiko to act out of self-interest, but Hachiman is wrong for doing the same?
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Old 2013-04-24, 20:25   Link #467
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Because Saika specifically asked the service club?

Because it's Hachiman's obligation as a service club member?

Because if Hachiman doesn't participate as a service club member, Shizuka won't let him pass onto the next grade?
It's Hachiman's obligation to get Saika the training, by any means necessary. It's not his obligation to train Saika personally. Heck, if necessary he could stand by and watch to see if Yumiko is fulfilling her promise. The moment Saika gets put on the sidelines he can stand up and do exactly the same thing he did. What makes this hypothetical situation less reasonable?

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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
I don't understand this at all. It's fine for Yumiko to act out of self-interest, but Hachiman is wrong for doing the same?
Are you actually reading what I'm writing? He's not acting out of rational self interest because his plan is fucking stupid and couldn't possibly help in any circumstance. It's just stubbornness, pure and simple. Earlier in the episode he instinctively bowed down by accident and now he's trying to make up for that. What he's doing has nothing to do with tennis.
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Old 2013-04-24, 20:27   Link #468
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
I never said Yumiko was blameless. I specifically said both of them escalated the problem together. That's all there is to it. And backing down could have solved the problem with minimal loss, especially if Saika gets the practice anyway (which Yumiko did promise).
Yes, YUMIKO could have backed down.

Quote:
And of course it's in Yumiko's rational self-interest to try to get something she wants. What does she have to lose by trying? Is it nice? Maybe not, but she did offer to help Saika. Why does Hikki care who provides the help?
Saika has the help he needs just fine without her.
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Old 2013-04-24, 20:30   Link #469
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
It's Hachiman's obligation to get Saika the training, by any means necessary. It's not his obligation to train Saika personally. Heck, if necessary he could stand by and watch to see if Yumiko is fulfilling her promise.
They're kicking him off if they win the bet. What "watching over" can Hachiman possibly do behind cages?

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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
The moment Saika gets put on the sidelines he can stand up and do exactly the same thing he did. What makes this hypothetical situation less reasonable?
No he can't. Or did you not see the part where Hayato said the winner would use the courts "from now on"?

What power does Hachiman himself to kick them off another time? He wouldn't necessarily have a teacher's approval then. In terms of numbers, Yumiko's group outnumber him. They have even less of a reason to comply with Hachiman than he does with them.
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Old 2013-04-24, 20:37   Link #470
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Yes, YUMIKO could have backed down.



Saika has the help he needs just fine without her.
She could have, but we can't exactly control the actions of others. I'm talking as if we're Hikki here, since the criticism is only of Hikki's choice.

Also, Yumiko and her friends actually want to play tennis. Hikki is only doing it out of obligation. Heck, he's not even playing since they only have 3 people. If Yumiko's group can have fun at the same time as helping Saika practice, isn't that just a better world? More people are happier? This isn't a zero-sum game.

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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
They're kicking him off if they win the bet. What "watching over" can Hachiman possibly do behind cages?
The same thing they can do from outside the cage? Walk inside and talk to them? It's true that they outnumber him and could kick him out by force if necessary, but they could also have done that in the first place. They chose to ask.

Quote:
No he can't. Or did you not see the part where Hayato said the winner would use the courts "from now on"?

What power does Hachiman himself to kick them off another time? He wouldn't necessarily have a teacher's approval then. In terms of numbers, Yumiko's group outnumber him. They have even less of a reason to comply with Hachiman than he does with them.
What power does he have now? They chose to negotiate. And, you know, you can change the terms of a negotiation as you go. That's the whole point. It wasn't an ultimatum. Upon hearing the circumstances, Yumiko reasonably offered to include Saika so he could get enough practice. She even offered herself as a better practice partner (which it's reasonable to believe that she actually is). Hikki could alter the terms of the deal.

And if Hikki wouldn't have permission later then he wouldn't even be using the field himself, would he? If they lost permission from the teachers then it wouldn't matter what Yumiko did or didn't do.
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Old 2013-04-24, 20:39   Link #471
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... They are all wrong, Yukinon is the only right one.
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Old 2013-04-24, 20:47   Link #472
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
She could have, but we can't exactly control the actions of others. I'm talking as if we're Hikki here since the criticism is only of Hikki's choice.
...What ?! No, that's bs right there.

We're not talking as if we're Hikki; Yumiko doesn't get a free pass because of some craze notion you have in your head that we can't control the actions of others but we can some how control Hikki's and so its okay to demand things only from him.

Quote:
Also, Yumiko and her friends actually want to play tennis. Hikki is only doing it out of obligation. Heck, he's not even playing since they only have 3 people. If Yumiko's group can have fun at the same time as helping Saika practice, isn't that just a better world? More people are happier? This isn't a zero-sum game.
Hikki speaks for the whole club.

Have you ever trained in a sports team? There's a reason people don't like practicing with other people just fooling around.
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Old 2013-04-24, 20:47   Link #473
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
She could have, but we can't exactly control the actions of others. I'm talking as if we're Hikki here, since the criticism is only of Hikki's choice.

Also, Yumiko and her friends actually want to play tennis. Hikki is only doing it out of obligation. Heck, he's not even playing since they only have 3 people. If Yumiko's group can have fun at the same time as helping Saika practice, isn't that just a better world? More people are happier? This isn't a zero-sum game.
What a flawed form of logic. Why do you judge Yumiko as someone who can't be helped, then criticize Hachiman as if only he can? Hachiman is a character as much as Yumiko is. You are not Hachiman. If Yumiko's selfishness can't be helped, then it also can't be helped that Hachiman got pulled into the contest.



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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
The same thing they can do from outside the cage? Walk inside and talk to them? It's true that they outnumber him and could kick him out by force if necessary, but they could also have done that in the first place. They chose to ask.
Rewatch the episode.

They didn't choose to ask. Hachiman outright said that they had permission that's not available to others. Yumiko said it makes no sense and called him creepy. That's when Hayato proposed the contest. That was an ultimatum.



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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
What power does he have now? They chose to negotiate. And, you know, you can change the terms of a negotiation as you go. That's the whole point. It wasn't an ultimatum. Upon hearing the circumstances, Yumiko reasonably offered to include Saika so he could get enough practice. She even offered herself as a better practice partner (which it's reasonable to believe that she actually is). Hikki could alter the terms of the deal.

And if Hikki wouldn't have permission later then he wouldn't even be using the field himself, would he? If they lost permission from the teachers then it wouldn't matter what Yumiko did or didn't do.
It was an ultimatum, considering Yumiko and Hayato forced it upon them after Hachiman already mentioned the court wasn't available to others.

A teacher isn't actively monitoring them for lunch break. That's the entire reason why Yumiko had the power to pick a fight in the first place. The point behind proposing a game instead of directly fighting Hachiman is so that Yumiko's group "fairly" earns the right to what she wants without looking like the bad guy.

If they win a mutually agreed contest, no one would listen to Hachiman as the loser. That's the point.
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Old 2013-04-24, 20:52   Link #474
Clarste
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Okay, I just rewatched it. Yumiko asks nicely, Hikki refuses by claiming that only Saika has permission, and when she asks why he's allowed if only Saika has permission he responds in a confusing manner. She gets annoyed (she's been characterized as disliking roundabout explanations) but then Hayato suggests they play together. Hikki then blows up and makes it all confrontational. Yumiko had no intent to kick them out until he did that. She originally asked to use the field alongside them, but Hikki made it clear that he wouldn't share. She actually comes off better than I'd remembered.

Edit: Hayato does more the talking than I remembered, but it's all completely reasonable. The whole thing revolves around the fact that Hikki himself doesn't have permission, or at least never claimed to.
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Old 2013-04-24, 21:36   Link #475
Chaos2Frozen
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Saiki has permission and had extended it to the service club, so by extension Hachiman and the rest of them had permission. This isn't a hard situation to get.

If they don't want to share then that's their right- as somone who had train in a sport team before I can tell you its annoying to have 'outsiders' playing around in your practice.

If anything Yumiko revealed her true face when they refused her and she doesn't get what she wants.
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Old 2013-04-24, 22:10   Link #476
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Are we seriously having an argument about whether the blonde selfish girl was in the wrong to try and take use of the area for her own selfish wishes? If she wants to play tennis so damn badly she can go ahead and get permission through the proper channels. Not try and force her way under the assumption that she can do anything because she's popular. Makes you wonder if Clarste is just being contrary to be contrary and string everyone along.

Just going to move on past this since, it really doesn't matter. Kind of too bad that Yumiko got rescued there. Not that you'd want her to get hurt, but might have taught her that she can't always get her way. Certainly would have worked with the baseball metaphor to have someone running into a wall while not keeping an eye on their surroundings.

In some ways kind of depressing that Hachiman won that game thanks to all the time he spent playing on his own . Loner strategies for the win ! Also props to Yui for being able to use the friend card to pull Yukino into the game.

Totsuka was an interesting guy to throw into it. A dangerously cute guy that's for sure.
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Old 2013-04-25, 01:24   Link #477
Tenzen12
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Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
Are we seriously having an argument about whether the blonde selfish girl was in the wrong to try and take use of the area for her own selfish wishes? If she wants to play tennis so damn badly she can go ahead and get permission through the proper channels. Not try and force her way under the assumption that she can do anything because she's popular. Makes you wonder if Clarste is just being contrary to be contrary and string everyone along.
You are right about Yumiko, she is selfish and think she can do anything cause she is popular. EVERYONE agree on this point.

Clarste from here go and saying Hikki didn't have any other reason accept duel than being conceited idiot and that it didn't contributed anything. (means he should be more diplomatic instead whole that cock fight) (personaly approve with reservations) Rest is just semantics.

Chaos from here go and saying Yumiko is not just selfish and arogant but also untrustworthy, dishonorable and overaly irredeemable (which personaly find quite presumptuous). Rest is (again) just semantics.

Yes, there were also dosen of insults on both sides...

Last edited by Tenzen12; 2013-04-25 at 01:50.
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Old 2013-04-25, 08:08   Link #478
FlareKnight
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Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
You are right about Yumiko, she is selfish and think she can do anything cause she is popular. EVERYONE agree on this point.

Clarste from here go and saying Hikki didn't have any other reason accept duel than being conceited idiot and that it didn't contributed anything. (means he should be more diplomatic instead whole that cock fight) (personally approve with reservations) Rest is just semantics.

Chaos from here go and saying Yumiko is not just selfish and arogant but also untrustworthy, dishonorable and overaly irredeemable (which personaly find quite presumptuous). Rest is (again) just semantics.

Yes, there were also dosen of insults on both sides...
I do think at the core that scene wasn't that deep.

While it might have helped if Hikki had tried more diplomacy I have my doubts. Dealing with someone who talks down to the person who actually registered for using the court and is hitting balls at them (which can certainly be interpreted as an act of intimidation) would be tough to handle. Plus, let's face it Hikki had enough trouble standing up in that classroom to help Yui out. To say he could engage in a reasonable debate with Yumiko over their use of the court is kind of asking a lot. That and this is a comedy series so a normal conversation about any issue probably won't happen .

With Yumiko, I haven't seen much positive out of her. Just seems like a stereotypical popular girl who uses the people around her. If she wants to talk about something, they will talk about that topic. If she wants to play tennis, then the people using the court better let her. Plus anyone who openly compliments themselves about the idea of a mixed doubles match...I worry about .

But, thanks on the summary there. Still kind of amazed that one part of the episode has consumed the thread.
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Old 2013-04-25, 11:53   Link #479
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Hmm I sense a good amount of trust between Hikki and Yuki even they are always on opposite agreement.
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Old 2013-04-25, 13:04   Link #480
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Spoiler for Episode 4:
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