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Old 2012-07-23, 01:31   Link #221
Netto Azure
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Welp I think this post deserves to be here more. :x

To me this whole racial tension aspect of the recent Total Eclipse episode reminds me of post-WWII mentality that people in America had of the Japanese. Considering that history took a much different route by the 1960's the changes in our timeline that promoted Multiculturalism probably wasn't as strong, as Nationalism was more favored over globalization.

This was probably due to countries as a whole fighting for their survival and therefore stoking national unity. This was kinda portrayed in the Alternative VN, where most of the refugee volunteers wanted to fight in order to retake their homelands so to speak.

Plus this occurred in the middle of the Cold War, with humanity divided into two major camps and also America is mostly focused on the Post-BETA world, while most countries looked upon the short term issues of pushing the BETA out of Earth.
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Old 2012-07-23, 02:45   Link #222
grevierr
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Originally Posted by Village Idiot View Post
If you want to get downright specific, TSF controls is very similar to something like Virtual-ON. The OS does the actual movements, the pilot just controls it.

Otherwise, without something like a Mobile Trace System (G-Gundam) or Direct Motion Link (SRW), true 1-1 control is impossible.
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Originally Posted by Village Idiot View Post
Nah, it looks more like the Japanese TSF Yuuta was using just have much more sensitive controls compared to the American TSF's that he's not used to it.

Its kind of like driving a car with power steering and then driving without it. It just feels...different at first until you get used to it.

Or in FPS terms, like going from 4.0 sensitivity to 12.0.

According to the VN, the TSF basic controls are more like a set series of moves which are selected by the pilot, together with a partial bio- feedback that reads the pilot's movements to the TSF control board and records it there for future use, allowing pilots to more easily control the TSF the longer they pilot it. There are limitations in this system as the movements are limited by the OS to reduce wear and tear of the mechanical systems, and there is no cancelling or interrupts allowed in the commands, and each input needs to follow the previous. So think of it like a PS1 mech sim. Of course, the adaptive systems only work on one type of unit, so if the mechanics are too different, like what happened with Yuuya, he needs to spend time in the suit again.

The XM3 developed by Takeru and Yuuko, on the other hand, is based off his Virtual Off experience. It removes the limiters, and allows for multiple inputs to be added in a series, so the next action can be done instantly instead of waiting for the TSF to recover. Combo actions are also allowed in this manner, as the input of a set series of actions allows for a different 'final action' to take place. Breaks, cancels and interrupts are allowed as well. So its more like the PS2-3 system of games.

And at the same time, the XM3 allows recording of movements from a skilled pilot, and can be transferable. So at the end of development, they all were on the bounce.
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Old 2012-07-23, 03:25   Link #223
encia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grevierr View Post
According to the VN, the TSF basic controls are more like a set series of moves which are selected by the pilot, together with a partial bio- feedback that reads the pilot's movements to the TSF control board and records it there for future use, allowing pilots to more easily control the TSF the longer they pilot it. There are limitations in this system as the movements are limited by the OS to reduce wear and tear of the mechanical systems, and there is no cancelling or interrupts allowed in the commands, and each input needs to follow the previous. So think of it like a PS1 mech sim. Of course, the adaptive systems only work on one type of unit, so if the mechanics are too different, like what happened with Yuuya, he needs to spend time in the suit again.

The XM3 developed by Takeru and Yuuko, on the other hand, is based off his Virtual Off experience. It removes the limiters, and allows for multiple inputs to be added in a series, so the next action can be done instantly instead of waiting for the TSF to recover. Combo actions are also allowed in this manner, as the input of a set series of actions allows for a different 'final action' to take place. Breaks, cancels and interrupts are allowed as well. So its more like the PS2-3 system of games.

And at the same time, the XM3 allows recording of movements from a skilled pilot, and can be transferable. So at the end of development, they all were on the bounce.
The other control system is like Kinect or Wii motion control system i.e. capture human body's actions.
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Old 2012-07-23, 03:40   Link #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grevierr View Post
The XM3 developed by Takeru and Yuuko, on the other hand, is based off his Virtual Off experience. It removes the limiters, and allows for multiple inputs to be added in a series, so the next action can be done instantly instead of waiting for the TSF to recover. Combo actions are also allowed in this manner, as the input of a set series of actions allows for a different 'final action' to take place. Breaks, cancels and interrupts are allowed as well. So its more like the PS2-3 system of games.

And at the same time, the XM3 allows recording of movements from a skilled pilot, and can be transferable. So at the end of development, they all were on the bounce.
I kinda feel bad for Yuuya in this way, he would have more than likely not gotten the bad rap from Yui if the data from his F-22 days was transferable to the Japanese TSF's. The XM3 was truly revolutionary in such ways. Also I agree with some of the previous posts. It would have made more sense to explain that close combat is a tactic that is vital for anti-BETA tactics due to ammo limits rather than stoking Yuuya's bi-racial fears.

Still doesn't TE go past Alternative? What other SS go past that? It would be nice to know the post Primary Hive efforts to clear the Earth of BETA.
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Old 2012-07-23, 04:17   Link #225
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Originally Posted by Netto Azure View Post
I kinda feel bad for Yuuya in this way, he would have more than likely not gotten the bad rap from Yui if the data from his F-22 days was transferable to the Japanese TSF's. The XM3 was truly revolutionary in such ways. Also I agree with some of the previous posts. It would have made more sense to explain that close combat is a tactic that is vital for anti-BETA tactics due to ammo limits rather than stoking Yuuya's bi-racial fears.

Still doesn't TE go past Alternative? What other SS go past that? It would be nice to know the post Primary Hive efforts to clear the Earth of BETA.
Nah, he's still condemned at this point, even with XM3, because of lack of real combat experience, and treating the whole thing as a game.

And for close-combat, its a culture thing. America has all the bullets they need, and don't see close combat as a viable option, preferring long distance engagement. Other countries do see it as an excellent option, to save bullets, as resources are low.

TE might go up to Alt. So far only Succession, Owari, seems to show a bit of post MLA. If you look at the timelines, they started mopping up Hives around 2003.

Spoiler for Post MLA:
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Old 2012-07-23, 07:28   Link #226
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Note the A-10, which carries a ridiculous number of guns, and two shoulder-mounted gatlings with ridiculously large (but completely acceptable) ammo drums. America is a firm believer in more dakka. If only a few of those were at Kyoto! Though it probably would't have done much.

To an extent, I can understand the American paradigm, in that BETA excel at close combat, so don't fight them on their terms. It's that wonderfully American trait of disliking fair fights.

Also,i find it interesting that the only missile armed TSFs seen so far were the Jolly Rogers Tomcats...
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Old 2012-07-23, 08:16   Link #227
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Note the A-10, which carries a ridiculous number of guns, and two shoulder-mounted gatlings with ridiculously large (but completely acceptable) ammo drums. America is a firm believer in more dakka. If only a few of those were at Kyoto! Though it probably would't have done much.

To an extent, I can understand the American paradigm, in that BETA excel at close combat, so don't fight them on their terms. It's that wonderfully American trait of disliking fair fights.

Also,i find it interesting that the only missile armed TSFs seen so far were the Jolly Rogers Tomcats...
And the description said that A-10 is designed to deal with A LOT OF tank-class

.....
Dude,ordinary 36mm autocannon can already deal serious damage to anything short of fort class and anything larger.

Those huge 6-barrel monster fire at least 10 times faster,which of course equal to 10 times more damage and 10 times more ammo consumption rate

Although they need a VERY stable supply line,they will definitely stop just about anything in its path.
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Old 2012-07-23, 08:41   Link #228
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Are missiles on TSF effective in a fight with BETA ?
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Old 2012-07-23, 08:43   Link #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Himmel View Post
Are missiles on TSF effective in a fight with BETA ?
Yes,, if it reach them before the Laser spots them....
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Old 2012-07-23, 10:34   Link #230
grevierr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Note the A-10, which carries a ridiculous number of guns, and two shoulder-mounted gatlings with ridiculously large (but completely acceptable) ammo drums. America is a firm believer in more dakka. If only a few of those were at Kyoto! Though it probably would't have done much.

To an extent, I can understand the American paradigm, in that BETA excel at close combat, so don't fight them on their terms. It's that wonderfully American trait of disliking fair fights.

Also,i find it interesting that the only missile armed TSFs seen so far were the Jolly Rogers Tomcats...
The A-10... there is a reason their design is not widely used by the world. Think about it.

For missiles, actually all TSF can equip them. Check out the wiki page for more info. They are shoulder mounted for most variants.
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Old 2012-07-23, 11:43   Link #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Village Idiot View Post
Nah, it looks more like the Japanese TSF Yuuta was using just have much more sensitive controls compared to the American TSF's that he's not used to it.

Its kind of like driving a car with power steering and then driving without it. It just feels...different at first until you get used to it.

Or in FPS terms, like going from 4.0 sensitivity to 12.0.
It's not just about control sensitivity alone, it's about the way the TSFs maneuver. Yuuya's used to designs like the Strike Eagle that can maneuver themselves with thrusters and thrust vectoring alone, while Japanese designs with their comparatively underpowered engines have to maneuver using mechanical characteristics and control surfaces like the head antennae and the forearm sheaths as control surfaces, making them very twitchy and fiddly.

Yuuya's entire flying style revolves around abusing his TSF's acceleration and speed to jink around and outmaneuver the opponent, and he's been doing well with that so far. But right now Yuuya's trying to toss the Fubuki about with thrusters alone based on his existing training, being inexperienced in the use of the kind of extra aerodynamic control surfaces that the Fubuki relies heavily on, so he's not controlling his machine properly as per Japanese design philosophy. (Not to say that the Americans don't also make light maneuverable designs like the F-5, F-16, F-18 etc)

It's basically simple incompatibility in American and Japanese pilot training, it might not be too farfetched to say that an Imperial pilot might have issues trying to handle something like the Raptor for the first time in the opposite direction in terms of control issues, seeing as the Raptor is basically designed to push out massive quantities of thrust to get around.
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Old 2012-07-23, 17:00   Link #232
Von Himmel
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Quote:
For missiles, actually all TSF can equip them. Check out the wiki page for more info. They are shoulder mounted for most variants.
Quote:
Yes,, if it reach them before the Laser spots them....
...Doesn't seems all that useful I thought at least it could destroy a couple of waves of BETA from afar before they come closer.
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Old 2012-07-23, 18:41   Link #233
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Originally Posted by Von Himmel View Post
...Doesn't seems all that useful I thought at least it could destroy a couple of waves of BETA from afar before they come closer.
Which is why there are different types of missiles. The Heavy Metal Anti-Laser rounds are the most used.
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Old 2012-07-23, 21:33   Link #234
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Which is why there are different types of missiles. The Heavy Metal Anti-Laser rounds are the most used.
If I remember correctly, the intent of those rounds is to be shot down. It is so the heavy metal particles inside those rounds would disperse into the air, and dampen the effects of lasers.

In the end of Alternative and in the assault on the Original Hive, the BETA learned to not shoot those rounds down and were able to focus their beams, to Takeru's despair.
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Old 2012-07-23, 21:41   Link #235
grevierr
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Originally Posted by LystAP View Post
If I remember correctly, the intent of those rounds is to be shot down. It is so the heavy metal particles inside those rounds would disperse into the air, and dampen the effects of lasers.

In the end of Alternative and in the assault on the Original Hive, the BETA learned to not shoot those rounds down and were able to focus their beams, to Takeru's despair.
What? I think they were set to air-burst?

And the final part,
Spoiler for MLA:
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Old 2012-07-23, 21:50   Link #236
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Originally Posted by grevierr View Post
What? I think they were set to air-burst?

And the final part,
Spoiler for MLA:
Hmm, I looked at the drop operation video on youtube; and I was pretty sure Takeru was despairing over the BETA learning not to shoot those shells.

Spoiler for Muv Luv Final Drop:
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Old 2012-07-23, 21:55   Link #237
grevierr
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Hmm, I looked at the drop operation video on youtube; and I was pretty sure Takeru was despairing over the BETA learning not to shoot those shells.

Spoiler for Muv Luv Final Drop:
Hmm, ok, looks like you are right, my bad. I always thought it was set to air-burst in case this happens...

I'll go take a look at Marimo's training again. This seems incredibility inefficient as a mode of delivery.
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Old 2012-07-23, 22:03   Link #238
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Hmm, ok, looks like you are right, my bad. I always thought it was set to air-burst in case this happens...

I'll go take a look at Marimo's training again. This seems incredibility inefficient as a mode of delivery.
Well, up until the Original Hive assault, the BETA ALWAYS shot down any incoming missiles. Military planners had every reason to presume they'll keep doing it; it was only in that last operation that the BETA stopped doing it. Besides, air-burst timers cost money.
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Old 2012-07-24, 00:56   Link #239
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Originally Posted by Von Himmel View Post
...Doesn't seems all that useful I thought at least it could destroy a couple of waves of BETA from afar before they come closer.
The missiles and rockets are actually a means to suppress and destroy pockets of BETA Advancing on a friendly position. And then a fire line of TSF would generally suppress the oncoming BETA horde while advancing at a steady pace.This is a favorite strategy of the Europeans in the muvluv verse.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Netto Azure View Post

Still doesn't TE go past Alternative?
Minus the 1997 Yui arc. TE technically started on march of 2001 and the Published LN volume ends the story on a cliffhanger at Early October. Takeru won't arrive in the alternative world until October 22 2001 if i remember correct.
But the Hints and teaser Age have been dropping for the last couple year all point to the suggestion that TE will go up to the Original Hive assault most likely with Argos deploying alongside the Russians in one of the worldwinde Hive distractions.

Last edited by Angrypokstick; 2012-07-24 at 01:09.
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Old 2012-07-24, 01:58   Link #240
Silvance
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^ Sword of the West, why are you so dazzling and irresistible? With the MK-57, it's just impossible not to be love-stuck. <3

ahem. ok. Enough creepy jokes.

Does anyone know this sexy lady? Judging from it's shoulders and chest area, I can deduce that it's European. Not to mention, the head reminds me so much of Typhoon.

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