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Old 2012-07-31, 15:12   Link #341
gbatemper
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I was thinking, I wonder how much it costs to builds TSF's. With China and Majority of Russia gone, and the world population reduced, building more should cost more or take more time. Let's say a TSF costs around it's Jet Equivalent (Technically, it should cost more a TSF is much more complex then it's Jet counterpart)

F-18 Hornet - Costs approximately 29-57 Million Dollars
Now, imagine 50 of these. Costs approximately 1490 million - 2850 million Dollars
This is ignoring the fact that a TSF is bigger, more costly, and takes more work to build a modern Jet. It is also more maintenance, requires more room to repair, and is a lot of work to transport. We can expect it to cost 2 to 10 times more.

In addition to that, we need to consider the 7 minutes of death. If so many TSF pilots are dying at that rate, we are losing millions of dollars the TSF pilot dies, and his TSF possibly wrecked.
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Old 2012-07-31, 15:18   Link #342
Sheba
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More TSF pilots survives the eight minutes of death than the early TSFs. It's the sacrifice of those first gen pilots that allowed to increase the survival rate of trainees. It still means jackshit to zerg rush or if you are an Orbital Diver.
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Old 2012-07-31, 19:29   Link #343
Angrypokstick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Netto Azure View Post
Off topic, but has anybody written a fanfic depicting the coming of BETA in the early-21st century? Like how modern military tactics would be used against BETA, because IIRC naval warfare nowadays depends heavily on light cannon armaments, guided cruise missiles and Aircraft Carrier groups.
Already kind of done in one of the Side stories. The USS John F Kennedy and its carrier taskforce found it self at port without its Battleship. and Suffered heavy casualties against an unforeseen BETA attack.
i will just let the CG from the game tell the story.

and then
Spoiler for size:


It was actually pretty epic.
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Old 2012-07-31, 20:44   Link #344
YF19EX
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That was pretty impressive. (Thinking the movie Battleship here) What were the casualties / damage estimates after that?
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Old 2012-07-31, 20:49   Link #345
Silvance
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YF19EX View Post
That was pretty impressive. (Thinking the movie Battleship here) What were the casualties / damage estimates after that?
Spoiler for TDA00:
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Old 2012-07-31, 21:13   Link #346
Angrypokstick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YF19EX View Post
That was pretty impressive. (Thinking the movie Battleship here) What were the casualties / damage estimates after that?
Spoiler for vn:
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Old 2012-07-31, 23:11   Link #347
Wild Goose
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Also,
Spoiler for Balls of Steel:


I think if there's anything Unlimited and Alternative are showing, it's that while the politicians may be wholly looking out for their own interests, and aren't afraid to screw over the world for short term gain - cf Sagiri's coup, which was provoked by the CIA, and consider what other shit CIA's been doing IRL - the average American soldier on the front lines just wants to do the right thing and get shit done.
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Old 2012-08-01, 00:02   Link #348
Angrypokstick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Also,
Spoiler for Balls of Steel:


I think if there's anything Unlimited and Alternative are showing, it's that while the politicians may be wholly looking out for their own interests, and aren't afraid to screw over the world for short term gain - cf Sagiri's coup, which was provoked by the CIA, and consider what other shit CIA's been doing IRL - the average American soldier on the front lines just wants to do the right thing and get shit done.
That same marine later on when others ask her about the sacrifices of the marines during that battle , which she explains that while she will always regret for the rest of her life not dying beside her fellow marine brothers and sister on that day but she will continues to live and fight on to uphold their legacy,pride,honor and integrity. Later on she basically used a variation of that famous quote from Full metal jacket.
"Marines die, that's what we're here for. But the Marine Corps lives forever. And that means THEY live forever. "
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Old 2012-08-01, 00:35   Link #349
YF19EX
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That's what this series is lacking, a good Drill Instructor Hartman! YEA GET SOME!

Got to admit, the writers really worked on their military history when doing this series. Its very refreshing overall.
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Old 2012-08-01, 11:15   Link #350
DezoPenguin
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Here's a kind of random thought:

We know that in MLA-universe, the Japanese focus on highly maneuverable, very precise TSFs that reward extreme-skill pilots at the expense of requiring considerable training to master, whereas the Americans focus on easier-to-learn TSFs that bring up the baseline for the armed forces while not being quite as exceptional for the high-end pilot.

We also know that this roughly tracks the actual design philosophies of the respective countries in RL WWII.

Furthermore, we know how well that worked out for the Japanese.

We also know that in MLA, the Japanese design philosophy is said to be principally focused on anti-BETA operations, while the U.S. philosophy is anti-TSF-driven.

So that in this world, it seems that the countries are using their same underlying principles of military design, and that the American principles are accurately reflecting the human-military-versus-human-military results that they're seeking out. Furthermore, it seems the writers went one further and, in the creation of BETA, presented the setting with a not-present-in-reality condition that allows Japan's WWII philosophy to be appropriate and effective. In other words, instead of having the in-universe Imperial Japanese military change its way of thinking after WWII, instead it was the setting that changed to provide justification for that thinking continuing!

Random, I know, but it's funky to think about this kind of thing on the meta-level.
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Old 2012-08-01, 11:28   Link #351
John117xCortana
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So Japanese preferred quality over quantity and 'survival of the fittest' type of training ? while Americans preferred a balance between quality and quantity ?
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Old 2012-08-01, 11:57   Link #352
YF19EX
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Well it is an anime so I would expect the slant towards Japanese tactics. US movies and story telling does it too. But ML gives a nice variation to include other countries and prominently the US while reflecting to a degree real world doctrine and political motivation. Hard to say if it was intended but with the discussion reflecting real world events, I'm sure they did their homework on the matter. Kinda like how Kawamori used the YF19 vs YF21 project Super Nova in comparison with the real YF22 vs YF23 development project as the backdrop for Macross Plus.
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Old 2012-08-01, 12:18   Link #353
YF19EX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John117xCortana View Post
So Japanese preferred quality over quantity and 'survival of the fittest' type of training ? while Americans preferred a balance between quality and quantity ?
I would say the US has always been like that. In WWII it did not have the technological superior weapons like Germany did. But it was better than its allies and on par with Germany when it came to regular equipment. And eventually development better weapons and technology toward the middle to the end of the war.

In today's world with an all volunteer force, the focus has moved to more advanced training, equipment and units to hit harder with smaller force overall. But the US is the only country
in the world that can afford the quality with the quantity.
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Old 2012-08-04, 14:13   Link #354
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Honestly, when it comes to taking out the BETA and Hives, Humanity is kinda retarded. Why?

The orbital dive pods used by the orbital divers have a 91% survival rate. Drop those onto the hives, and load them with Tsar Bombas or fuel air bombs instead of TSFs.
That's actually something I'm kinda wondering myself. If you can force enough drop pods loaded with TSF through BETA laser defenses to launch a close combat raid against a Hive...why can't you load those drop pods with hundred megaton bombs instead?

First wave airbursts to wipe out laser defenses around the hive itself, and the second wave consists of heavy duty multi megaton bunker busters.
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Old 2012-08-04, 17:27   Link #355
Caithsith
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
That's actually something I'm kinda wondering myself. If you can force enough drop pods loaded with TSF through BETA laser defenses to launch a close combat raid against a Hive...why can't you load those drop pods with hundred megaton bombs instead?

First wave airbursts to wipe out laser defenses around the hive itself, and the second wave consists of heavy duty multi megaton bunker busters.
I think it was already answered pages ago. Humanity has more effective weapon than nuke or bunker buster by the name of G-bombs, yet BETA still able to somehow evade it. Battle of Sadogashima saw about 20x (CMIIW) worth G-bombs than Yokohama hive which used 2 G-bombs to capture. The damages was so great it erased Sadogashima from map, yet thousands of BETAs still survived.

Also, nukes (and G-bombs) uses for eurasian hives was greatly opposed for fear of losing fertile soils and habitable land, and i'm not sure if there's bunker buster able to breach 4 km deep into heavily reinforced hive walls.
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Old 2012-08-04, 18:32   Link #356
encia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Here's a kind of random thought:

We know that in MLA-universe, the Japanese focus on highly maneuverable, very precise TSFs that reward extreme-skill pilots at the expense of requiring considerable training to master, whereas the Americans focus on easier-to-learn TSFs that bring up the baseline for the armed forces while not being quite as exceptional for the high-end pilot.

We also know that this roughly tracks the actual design philosophies of the respective countries in RL WWII.

Furthermore, we know how well that worked out for the Japanese.

We also know that in MLA, the Japanese design philosophy is said to be principally focused on anti-BETA operations, while the U.S. philosophy is anti-TSF-driven.

So that in this world, it seems that the countries are using their same underlying principles of military design, and that the American principles are accurately reflecting the human-military-versus-human-military results that they're seeking out. Furthermore, it seems the writers went one further and, in the creation of BETA, presented the setting with a not-present-in-reality condition that allows Japan's WWII philosophy to be appropriate and effective. In other words, instead of having the in-universe Imperial Japanese military change its way of thinking after WWII, instead it was the setting that changed to provide justification for that thinking continuing!

Random, I know, but it's funky to think about this kind of thing on the meta-level.
The construction for RL WWII Mitsubishi Zero also reflects Japan's industrial base i.e. it uses less raw materials (e.g. lack of armor) than the American counterpart.

In MuvLuv, melee focused combat may also reflect Japan's industrial base and may not have the same logistics strength as US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caithsith View Post
I think it was already answered pages ago. Humanity has more effective weapon than nuke or bunker buster by the name of G-bombs, yet BETA still able to somehow evade it. Battle of Sadogashima saw about 20x (CMIIW) worth G-bombs than Yokohama hive which used 2 G-bombs to capture. The damages was so great it erased Sadogashima from map, yet thousands of BETAs still survived.

Also, nukes (and G-bombs) uses for eurasian hives was greatly opposed for fear of losing fertile soils and habitable land, and i'm not sure if there's bunker buster able to breach 4 km deep into heavily reinforced hive walls.
Note that induced gamma emission (IGE) or laser triggered H-bomb(fusion) is a "clean" nuclear weapons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LystAP View Post
Your presuming they're not using up all those G-elements as they come, it takes a lot of energy to power a interstellar empire .

I also doubt all the BETA are sending their resources to one place, there are most likely multiple central hubs to which they send their resources to be processed. Think of the BETA as operating as we would when it comes to resource extraction, we don't cram all of our ore into one huge warehouse.

In fact, just think of the BETA and their creators as one big galactic-sized mining corporation.
As with any machines, the BETA would reflect it's creator/designer.

Last edited by encia; 2012-08-04 at 18:54.
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Old 2012-08-04, 19:33   Link #357
SoldierOfDarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John117xCortana View Post
So Japanese preferred quality over quantity and 'survival of the fittest' type of training ? while Americans preferred a balance between quality and quantity ?
That kind of attitude backfired on them in WWII.

The Japanese had a very strict program that produced high quality pilots but during the Pacific War it proved incapable of providing replacements to keep up with the losses unlike the Allies.

It was because of this the quality of the pilots went down which led to turkey shoot scenarios in the Pacific War.
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Old 2012-08-05, 09:56   Link #358
Roger Rambo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caithsith View Post
I think it was already answered pages ago. Humanity has more effective weapon than nuke or bunker buster by the name of G-bombs, yet BETA still able to somehow evade it. Battle of Sadogashima saw about 20x (CMIIW) worth G-bombs than Yokohama hive which used 2 G-bombs to capture. The damages was so great it erased Sadogashima from map, yet thousands of BETAs still survived.
Except how do you get G-bombs? You got to launch special operations (involving orbital drops) to assault the hives with TSF's in order to acquire the material to build the G-bombs...except you could have loaded those drop pods with 100 megaton Tsar bombs. (another possibility would be kamikaze TSF's loaded with multi megaton warheads that fought through the hive tunnels, then detonated).

Even if there are thousands of surviving BETA, as long as they don't have a hive they won't be able to produce any of the Laser classes. And a few thousand BETA survivors could probably be moped up by TSR equipped with tactical nukes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caithsith View Post
Also, nukes (and G-bombs) uses for eurasian hives was greatly opposed for fear of losing fertile soils and habitable land, and i'm not sure if there's bunker buster able to breach 4 km deep into heavily reinforced hive walls.
Except don't the BETA strip down everything around their hives into uninhabitable wastelands? And even if there was some good land left around the hives, it's not like humans would be able to use it with the nearbye hive anyway. And Tsar bombs don't sound like they have NEARLY as many side effects as G-bombs do.
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Old 2012-08-05, 10:07   Link #359
DoomRavager
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They don't really have to do infiltration operations to seize G-elements, they have enough in stock from Athabasca, or so they think, and it's not as if using G-bombs will necessarily make it impossible to capture more G-elements as Lucifer demonstrated.

I seem to remember reading that in the Palaiologos operation the bureaucracy denied them use of nuclear weapons within the Minsk hive because they wanted to take the thing reasonably intact. Which is frankly pants on head insane and probably contributed to the operation's failure, but there you have it, obstructive bureaucrats doing their thing.

I don't think formerly BETA-occupied territory necessarily becomes completely uninhabitable after it's recaptured.
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Old 2012-08-05, 10:55   Link #360
LystAP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomRavager View Post
They don't really have to do infiltration operations to seize G-elements, they have enough in stock from Athabasca, or so they think, and it's not as if using G-bombs will necessarily make it impossible to capture more G-elements as Lucifer demonstrated.

I seem to remember reading that in the Palaiologos operation the bureaucracy denied them use of nuclear weapons within the Minsk hive because they wanted to take the thing reasonably intact. Which is frankly pants on head insane and probably contributed to the operation's failure, but there you have it, obstructive bureaucrats doing their thing.

I don't think formerly BETA-occupied territory necessarily becomes completely uninhabitable after it's recaptured.
This is true, the primary reason why the BETA lands are so bleak is because the BETA try to "refine" every Carbon-based existence (such as plants) that they can. What makes a place completely uninhabitable is a G-Bomb, even more so than any form of nuclear weapon. From what we know, while a nuke may make land uninhabitable for a few centuries at most, a few years at the least; a G-Bomb will completely sterilize the land for perpetuity.
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