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Old 2012-10-29, 12:11   Link #381
Wild Goose
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Ya know what's ironic? In Alternative, the YF-23 has the reputation for being the superior close range fighter. IRL, the YF-22 was regarded as the superior dogfighter; the YF-23 had better straight line speed, but the YF-22 turned better and was more agile.

Also, the YF-23 could be pretty damned shooty when it wanted to, what with carrying SIX assault rifle mounts.
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Old 2012-10-30, 08:16   Link #382
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The American TSF's are freakin useless against the BETA. Yes the stealth tech is cool and against other TSF's yes it has the advantage as show against the Chinese. I guess since the North America has not been invaded by the BETA yet the US is not taking it seriously hence not developing their TSF's to engage the BETA not exactly the best idea. Imo the Infinities can not claim to be the best until they survive their first encounter with the BETA. Till then im just going to look at this as another pissing contest between men and their machines.
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Old 2012-10-30, 08:33   Link #383
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That's a gross misrepresentation of the results of the Advanced Tactical Surface Fighter project. ATSF was intended to create a next-generation TSF that would have improved anti-BETA performance as well as an additional edge against human opponents; General Ben Brugg, US Army, postulated that within decades BETA would be successfully eradicated, and after that a war over G-Elements would kick off; to maintain American superiority, the next generation TSF would need to surpass the F-15 Eagle's performance in both anti-BETA and anti-TSF combat.

Everyone keeps harping on about the F-22's stealth, and keeps forgetting that the YF-23, which was very good at combating BETA, had an identical level of stealth when compared to the YF-22. And it's even more shooty than other TSFs, being that it can deploy SIX assault rifles in Gun Sweeper configuration.

Also, it should be pointed out that practically all TSFs in the world have some input from American TSFs; a great many soviet designs, for instance, are modified or derived from US TSFs, and the Su-27 was essentially jointly designed by Sufoni and Northrock. The J-10 is derived from the F-16, and the Taiwanese F-CK-1 is a development of the F-18. Hell, even the 100% Made In Japan Type-94 Shiranui was derived from the Type-89 Kagerou/F-15J.

The F-15, F-16 and F-18 have acquitted themselves well on the battlefield. They are not regarded as useless against BETA. The F-22 exceeds the performance of the teen fighters. Do the math.
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Old 2012-10-30, 08:44   Link #384
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The raptor is a monster tsf that can fight against other tsf with a ratio of 1:7

its so darn fast that you don't know what hit you until you're down. The stealth ability might sound useless against BETA but that is just an additional feature that makes the raptor scary against tsf battle but it doesn't change the fact that its a top tier tsf that is on par with takemikazuchi.

Being able to battle other tsf with a ratio of 1 raptor to 7 tsf is no laughing matter. Imagine the BETA hordes that it can slaughter if it can even take on the the job of battling against 7 tsf. Plus just like what said before. US has different means of fighting than with Japan. Japan has their swords and like to rush in and take them down while the US will put holes in every part of your mech till your scrap in a safe distance.

now that we are talking about the raptor it reminds me of major walken ;_; US and their stupid conspiracy.
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Old 2012-10-30, 08:56   Link #385
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That maybe the case but speaking from a Military stand point. Thinking towards the next war after the BETA are defeated (if they win) can be unwise for so many reasons i dont even want to start. The current battlefield is what it is and i see stealth as a weapon to combat other TSF's. How do the BETA's ocular nerves work, what light spectrum do they see in there are tons of "what ifs" in regards to the BETA. Would the Raptors stealth counter the BETA's laser class. When one points out stealth i hardly find it a worthy discussion unless you address how an alien enemy (which no ones seems to know about) perceives light. It is important to think about the future of warfare however if ones does not win the current war then the advancements in technology were pointless. Also, the BETA continue to show different tactics which could render any type of stealth useless. The BETA seem to adapt when they are confronted with a new type of weapon. My point is these games are a waste of time and several characters have already stated it. The world is in very real danger and humanity is not winning not even close to winning. All efforts should be geared towards developing weapons and tactics to win the current war not the next one. It was also stated that the US has virtually not been touched by the BETA and that their TSF's pilots do not have a lot of combat experience against the BETA. The US could learn a thing or two from these passages

Sun Tzu says:

-Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor damped, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue

-In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.

-There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.

-Hence the saying: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.
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Old 2012-10-30, 09:17   Link #386
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the stealth ability of raptor is useless against BETA especially that BETA is attractive to the most advance in technology or machine. Raptor is especially delicious in the eyes of BETA with its tech but the point that we like to say is Raptor is strong though the stupid americans like to think far ahead after the defeat of BETA even though they are still there.

The beta to the eyes of this people are easy mode and attacks in linear suicidal that's why when BETA use tactics or strategy they are always surprised. They summed up beta as an alien of mystery and they are trying to find more about them in scientific way but in the eyes of politicians and military they are insignificant.

That's why this world is messed up. Try not to find logic in their minds because from a perspective of a person from our world thrown into their world. They are crazy.

The humanity is in brink of extinction and they only think of themselves and power, greed are running rampant in the higher ups. Trying to take down enemies which they aren't meant to fight with. Taking advantage of anything they can take. Look at the UN leader that blows their own base for the sake of getting that railgun technology. Sacrificing a unit just to prove your pilot is good? isn't that stupid and crazy?
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Old 2012-10-30, 09:17   Link #387
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It depends, actually - the US Army and Air Force as a whole have very little experience against the BETA, with the exception of the survivors of the A-10 battalions that were deployed to Germany after the Oder-Niesse line fell and the BETA swarmed over the place. The Navy and Marine Corps, on the other hand, are a different matter; it's noted that the US carrier groups and Amphibious Ready Groups are patrolling all over the world and assisting wherever they can; part of the reason COSEAN is able to bottleneck the BETA is South Thailand is because the US and Australian navies are keeping Vietnam locked down and preventing the BETA from making a breakout by sea. Marine Amphibious Ready Groups are also forward deployed and are seeing plenty of action, particularly in Europe.

Coming back to your original point, however, your original point was that US TSFs are useless. I'm trying to point out that this isn't the case, because they are widely used, and are quite effective machines, and that the Raptor isn't useless - it's just that it hasn't been deployed in sufficient numbers to make a difference yet.

I agree that General Brugg was too optimistic, way back in the late 80s, when he argued strongly for what became ATSF; nevertheless, to call the Raptor useless against BETA because of its stealth abilities and prioritization to fight humans is misleading, and not completely correct. The F-15 does very well against BETA; the Raptor exceeds its performance.

That said, I agree that all things considered, the US is not focusing on the right things - but at this point, bureaucratic inertia means that there's no way to change ATSF.

As for the BETA, in and outside universe speculation is that they home in on the silicon used in computers, which is why they assign higher targeting priority to smart weapons, compared to artillery shells.

The problem is that the nations in Alternative, by and by, even when the world is ending, can't seem to just give it a fucking rest, and must engage in douchbaggery (La CIA, tovarisch chekist, I'm looking at you); it's just that America is more obvious. That said, the average American soldier on the ground doesn't give a shit about the politicking, and just wants to get shit done.
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Old 2012-10-30, 11:41   Link #388
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You guys might want to continue discussion in the military and geopolitics thread for this, if the debate is going to get lengthy. Thats what its there for Quite a bit of stuff and fluff already there as well for more debate points.
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Old 2012-10-30, 11:45   Link #389
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You are right this best discussed in the appropriate thread and both of the previous post do point out a great deal. I should have phrased my thoughts on the Raptor a little better, however it was 7:30am at the time lol. Though i know using logic in an anime is useless lol i should have known this after 20+ year of viewing but sometimes it hard to break the habit. Thanks for the break down info on the Raptor i had not seen all the specs as of yet.
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Old 2012-10-30, 16:52   Link #390
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Personally, I don`t see anything spoilerish here, but that`s just my humble opinion. In fact, it gives a lot of backstage info.

Now about the F-22 and the stealth issue, I think it isn`t a big deal. It is just a matter of time until some nation finds a counter-meassure, and then we are back to the "Pigeon Post and war dog" era.

In fact, I remember a some years ago that there was a huge brainstorming about "how to defeat the F-22 and F-35". Some ideas were to arm the PAK-FA with 4 short-wave radars and other instruments and then multiplex the data to find the F-22s. And there was other idea to give a "plasma shield" generator to the Berkut so that radar (and even light/laser) waves could be cancel.

If the F-22 works against the BETA? Well, throw a squadron to a Beta Offensive. If 20% of it makes it back alive, you get the seal of approval.
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Old 2012-10-30, 18:37   Link #391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
It depends, actually - the US Army and Air Force as a whole have very little experience against the BETA, with the exception of the survivors of the A-10 battalions that were deployed to Germany after the Oder-Niesse line fell and the BETA swarmed over the place. The Navy and Marine Corps, on the other hand, are a different matter; it's noted that the US carrier groups and Amphibious Ready Groups are patrolling all over the world and assisting wherever they can; part of the reason COSEAN is able to bottleneck the BETA is South Thailand is because the US and Australian navies are keeping Vietnam locked down and preventing the BETA from making a breakout by sea. Marine Amphibious Ready Groups are also forward deployed and are seeing plenty of action, particularly in Europe.

Coming back to your original point, however, your original point was that US TSFs are useless. I'm trying to point out that this isn't the case, because they are widely used, and are quite effective machines, and that the Raptor isn't useless - it's just that it hasn't been deployed in sufficient numbers to make a difference yet.

I agree that General Brugg was too optimistic, way back in the late 80s, when he argued strongly for what became ATSF; nevertheless, to call the Raptor useless against BETA because of its stealth abilities and prioritization to fight humans is misleading, and not completely correct. The F-15 does very well against BETA; the Raptor exceeds its performance.

That said, I agree that all things considered, the US is not focusing on the right things - but at this point, bureaucratic inertia means that there's no way to change ATSF.

As for the BETA, in and outside universe speculation is that they home in on the silicon used in computers, which is why they assign higher targeting priority to smart weapons, compared to artillery shells.

The problem is that the nations in Alternative, by and by, even when the world is ending, can't seem to just give it a fucking rest, and must engage in douchbaggery (La CIA, tovarisch chekist, I'm looking at you); it's just that America is more obvious. That said, the average American soldier on the ground doesn't give a shit about the politicking, and just wants to get shit done.
That's a very detailed post about the state of affairs in muv luv. I need to start reading the wiki as well so I can become an expert.
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Old 2012-10-30, 20:40   Link #392
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They should find a way to engineer computers that use something other than silicon to work. Some other medium should be possible, no? Or maybe the BETA just sense electrical waves, which would also allow them to sense humans...

About the US not having combat experience: Sure they do. They have forces overseas all the time, and certainly veterans can come back and teach the n00bs.
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Old 2012-10-30, 22:41   Link #393
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That's a very detailed post about the state of affairs in muv luv. I need to start reading the wiki as well so I can become an expert.
I suggest reading all the translated TSFIA articles on the wiki. since that's where the majority of the background info regarding weapons, tactics and general world politics are coming from.
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Old 2012-10-31, 02:01   Link #394
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Regarding defeating stealth, just FYI that in recent exercise (can't remember if it was Red Flag or something else) a matchup between the Eurofighter Typhoon (IIRC) and the Raptor ended up with the Raptor losing due to not quite having the same manuverability edge of the Typhoon in a close range dogfight.

That said, the issue is getting into that dogfight in the first place; the Raptor can detect you before you detect the Raptor, under most circumstances.

Note that when Sagiri's forces with dogfighting with Walken's battalion, it was a close range dogfight, which evened the odds somewhat.
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Old 2012-10-31, 02:15   Link #395
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Regarding defeating stealth, just FYI that in recent exercise (can't remember if it was Red Flag or something else) a matchup between the Eurofighter Typhoon (IIRC) and the Raptor ended up with the Raptor losing due to not quite having the same manuverability edge of the Typhoon in a close range dogfight.

That said, the issue is getting into that dogfight in the first place; the Raptor can detect you before you detect the Raptor, under most circumstances.

Note that when Sagiri's forces with dogfighting with Walken's battalion, it was a close range dogfight, which evened the odds somewhat.
Its one of the items listed here as well http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/07/f-22-germans/

For the TDA 02 scenario, I would like to highlight again that the French planted ground sensors all over the place under the pretense of the cease fire treaty. So the F-22s were fighting without stealth, and Walken was forced to fight at close combat without that advantage. Its an acknowledgment to his skill as a pilot that he made it out and survived, since other pilots of the F-22 did went down. Just to note though, its Sagiri's first battle in the Rafale according to the remarks the French battalion commander made before the battle.

Oh and about that part about American TSFs doing very well against the BETA, actually the frontline countries feel that they kept being given these death coffins to die in which prompts them to keep trying to modify it into something that works against the BETA. So we have all the modified TSFs that are based off the American ones. Not because its the best, but because no one has the time to relax and take a few decades to redesign the basic structure, and they instead use the parts that work, and add on parts that each country thinks works better against the immediate foe. If US TSFs are the best, there wouldn't be a need to make changes to the design, other than pride. They work, but it could work better with changes by those with experience.
Presumably the US acknowledges that, thus the creation of the Prominence project to share ideas, while at the same time showing off their products.
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Old 2012-10-31, 06:30   Link #396
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Time to play Devil's Advocate:

That's a bit of a stretch; yes, the first-generation American TSFs were not stellar, but they were 1st Generation machines, and no first-generation machine was truly good. The Tornado was average at best, and Gekishit...well, the nickname should tell you all you need to know. F-14s did fight against the BETA, and did reasonably, if not well. F-15 is used as the mainstay TSF of the United Nations, and seems to be doing reasonably well against the BETA. And there's the Strike Eagle and above all - A-6 Intruder and A-10 Thunderbolt II, which are about the two most effective anti-BETA TSFs ever designed (and as TDA shows, they can be brutally effective against TSFs as well), and both are American.

Of course, there's the whole debate about the export versions of given product being intended as inferior to what said product is in the mother country. This has happened in real life (Soviet Union, and it's mass of shitty Warsaw Pact tanks says hi), so I see no real reasons for Americans not to do so...if only for the profit for their industry. That and there's no guarantee that refits aren't being done by Americans themselves; I'm pretty sure Type-89 Kagerou was manufactured in America (or at least, by American interests in Japanese factories). A lot of refits seem about as increasing TSFs effectiveness, as much as about actually fitting the given machine in a country's military service.


And yes, national pride rears its ugly head again. The French constructed a 3rd Generation machine solely because ECTSF told it to go to hell with their engines. And Soviets are outright obsessed with showing up to Americans and continually failing (first versions of MiG-23 and early power troubles of Su-27 mechs). A lot of native designs are less about being more effective against the BETA (although, it cannot be denied that some, like the J-10 and its Israeli counterpart are genuinely superior to mother product), and being self-sufficient with their own industry, because relying on someone else for all your essential war machines is not a good thing in the long run... particular if you would be willing to go to war over the G-Elements. We already know that America is prepared to fight other nations...but there's nothing to say that other nations aren't prepared to fight themselves too. Hell, even Japan is considering an increase to its human-countering potential, if the trials of F-15SEJ is anything to go by.

Incidentally, the Prominence is exclusively U.N thing. Given Leon's remark, and Yuuya's initial dismissive attitude at first, I'm pretty sure America considers it more of a nuisance then anything else. Especially when we consider that there are almost no U.S personnel or test pilots out there...unless I missed some.


---

At the end of the debate though, we should remember one thing:

"War are fought by weapons, but won by men."

Who has the better pilots wins. Everyone who played Ace Combat knows that if you're good, you can end up eating EF-2000s for lunch in your F-5E Tiger II.
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Old 2012-10-31, 08:08   Link #397
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No US pilots at Prominence except for Yuuya and the Inifinities, as far as I've looked. Prominence was supposed to give other countries a chance to develop next-gen TSFs to continue the fight, particularly those countries which have lost ground to BETA.

As the US has not lost any territory to the BETA, and is pretty much done with development of its own 3rd-gen TSF (EMD Phase 2 seems to be the final stage before IOC and full deployment), I'm quite sure they don't really care about Prominence...

Spoiler for Conversation between American officers:


XD

On the subject of pilots, and Ace Combat, I have a friend who took down the Yellows. On Ace Difficulty. In the F-4E. So yes, pilot skill is crucial - IIRC, the Rafale was officially stated to be superior to the Raptor in CQC... and yet despite having the advantage, Sagiri was not able to exploit that, and was constantly stalemated by Walken.

...this is offtopic, but I suddenly realised that Walken has a memetic mutation of apparently being the next Moebius One?
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Old 2012-10-31, 08:50   Link #398
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Perhaps I should specify that what the frontline countries are customizing their TSFs for are for Hive attacks. As humanity theorized, to only way to remove the presence of the BETA from an area is to totally destroy the reactor, which was proven in the events pre- and post- Ouka, supplemented by the Valkyries Data presumably, when BETA who have lost their Hive would swarm towards the nearest Reactor.

The only country not fully specializing their Units for hive combat is America, despite the testing for the F-22 in Hive raiding, since the very limitation of their policy is resupply. Every single country with experience goes nuts about putting as many blades as possible on their TSF, if you look at the design of the EF-2000 and the Type-00, and the SU-47. Taking the examples of the A-6 and A-10, do you not find it strange that those are considered early 2nd Gen, when the focus is on defending against BETA incursions, not Hive attacks? They surely excel in their role as point defense, or beach head holding, but not much else. Even the rumored A-12 follows the ATSF American Doctrine, including stealth in a design meant for assaulting from sea...

To put it in MMORPG terms, you are going to raid a boss in a dungeon. In your party, everyone is spec for boss raiding, either tanking, damage dealing, healing or buffing. Except one guy whose spec is for PVP... Sure he can do damage with his built, but it looks suspiciously like everyone should watch their backs against that bastard... once the boss drops are handled out.

And the UN while having a centralized command structure technically independent of any one country, still has to play the political game wherever they are, which means which ever country they are in have a say in their operations. Forces in local UN bases are supplied by local forces, including personal and logistics. So while you see F-15s and F-4s at Yokohama base, they are mostly domestic variants of the line, not pure US. You see about as many Type-97s and Type-94s in the defense of the base too. It is a fact that F-4s are the most numerals in the world, which is just because they are the units most produced by America as they consider it the strongest 2nd Gen, and thus the most widely available.
The F-15SEJ is an commercial and political tool, and is what the US is forcing Japan to purchase in direct competition against the successful creation of the XFJ-01. Its already stated that Japan doctrine and policies have little use for the stealth, and was basically the US push to keep Japan dependent on their product in replacing the F-4 domestic variant. Unlike what America did with the YF-23 however, Japan isn't wasteful of the 12 F-15SEJ, and keeps them just in case...

And as for US presence in Prominence, it is still a collaboration of American data and technology with other countries, which would not have taken place if America was totally against it, and thus preventing Boeing from participating. Even then, the heavy handedness of the Boeing representative can be seen in operational plannings, at times forcing the issue against the wants of the Japanese representative. They just want to show off their tech, and keep track of other countries development (at the same time delaying it if possible). This two way flow of information would lead to the direct competition of the domestically produced Type-02 and F-15SEJ, both developed with the same data, as stated.
Otherwise, as you said, America didn't bother with keeping a developmental presence, since Boeing was doing enough for that. They seem to look down on countries developing stronger Anti-BETA units instead of Anti-TSF units, if anything.

One thing I have been kinda pissed about the Blue Flag exercise in the current arc, is that it seems to be something that the Americans pushed for, since its pitting TSFs vs TSFs, and not against BETA or Hive assaults... Guess who gets the most out of TSF vs TSF combat data? The next arc would piss me off against the US even more...
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Old 2012-10-31, 09:11   Link #399
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Regards the F-15SEJ, I'd just note that Munakata totally loved it, and seriously intended to recommend it over the Shiranui Niigata because she honestly considered it to be the better machine.

I think we can all agree that as a whole, the 2nd Gen TSFs, particularly the Teen Fighters, are good machines and provided a breathing room for humanity to buy time to proceed with developing 3rd Gen TSFs. The designs aren't inherently bad, just that they're built with American doctrine in mind, which doesn't always jive with the needs of the purchasing country.
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Old 2012-10-31, 09:24   Link #400
grevierr
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Regards the F-15SEJ, I'd just note that Munakata totally loved it, and seriously intended to recommend it over the Shiranui Niigata because she honestly considered it to be the better machine.

I think we can all agree that as a whole, the 2nd Gen TSFs, particularly the Teen Fighters, are good machines and provided a breathing room for humanity to buy time to proceed with developing 3rd Gen TSFs. The designs aren't inherently bad, just that they're built with American doctrine in mind, which doesn't always jive with the needs of the purchasing country.
Just a slight correction, Misae and Touko never piloted the Type-04. She just felt that the F-15SEJ / Test Type 02 was the best she had piloted so far. And as stated, it was refurbished using the same data that created the XFJ-01 / Shiranui Second, and was Boeing's bid to regain control of TSF exports to Japan, so they made sure it would function to Japan spec... with a little extra stealth, of course.

And yes, as I was trying to put across previously, the 2nd Gen of TSFs functioned well for their time and purpose. Its the direction of the 3rd Gen that America diverges from Anti-Hive.
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